Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

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brightfame52

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That's apparently all you can say when you're stumped. That, and repeat your claim almost word for word.

If there were any sense to the idea that Faith is just a spinoff feeling or "evidence" for a salvation already assured, no matter what the person does or believes...

you could explain it and show how the rest of the Bible supports your remarkable discovery. But no. this ^ is all we get. Verbal footstomping. ;)
Yeah sure. I have said plenty in this thread, you dont listen
 

brightfame52

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Justification by His Blood !2 Rom 3:24-25


Rom 3:24-25

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The remission of sins that are past refers to Justification of the OT Saints, for they were Justified by His Blood before it was shed in time at Calvary, and they by the Spirit of God was given Faith in His Blood for the remission of sins "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood"

The OT Saints anticipated the coming of Christ to shed His Blood and satisfy God's Law and Justice, and so hence they had a proper understanding of the OT types and shadows by which God set Him forth to the eye of Faith. Thats what Jacob meant here Gen 49:10

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Thats what is meant here also Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

The Old Testament Saints, their sins too were to be remitted by the Blood here Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Both OT Saints and NT Saints found remission of sins in the Blood of Christ, and I believe that was what Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah here Lk 9:29-31

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

His decease would accomplish remission of sins ! That word accomplish is used in this context where remission of sins is to be preached Lk 24:44-47

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled/accomplished, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

So the OT Saints Like Moses and Elijah were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9, and they were also declared Righteous by His Blood, Remember Abel Heb 11:4

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Abel had been given Faith in the Blood of Christ, his offering reflected that and it showed he was Justified or Righteous because of it !

The word Justified in Rom 5:9 is the greek word dikaioō:

I.
to render righteous or such he ought to be

II.
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

III.
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

All the OT Saints as well as NT Saints have been acquitted from all charges, guilt and punishment, penalty for their sins through and solely through the Blood of Christ

And none of this had anything to do with their act of faith, but all the credit must go to the Blood and Him who shed it !
 

Messy

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51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;


And none of this had anything to do with their act of faith, but all the credit must go to the Blood and Him who shed it !
But not the whole nation got saved. Yet He died for the whole nation.
 

Albion

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All the OT Saints as well as NT Saints have been acquitted from all charges, guilt and punishment, penalty for their sins through and solely through the Blood of Christ

And none of this had anything to do with their act of faith, but all the credit must go to the Blood and Him who shed it !
Or...

All the OT Saints as well as NT Saints have been acquited from all charges, guilt and punishment for their sins, SO LONG AS THEY BELIEVE IN THE SAVIOR WHO DID IT FOR THEM.

All the Biblical evidence says that this is what Faith does and why it's necessary.
 

brightfame52

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Or...

All the OT Saints as well as NT Saints have been acquited from all charges, guilt and punishment for their sins, SO LONG AS THEY BELIEVE IN THE SAVIOR WHO DID IT FOR THEM.

All the Biblical evidence says that this is what Faith does and why it's necessary.
Thats works
 

Messy

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Huh ? You lost me
Not the whole nation of Israel got saved. Yet He died for the whole nation. Only the ones who believed in Him got saved.
Just like with the snake on the pole. Only the ones who looked at it got healed.
 

brightfame52

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Not the whole nation of Israel got saved. Yet He died for the whole nation. Only the ones who believed in Him got saved.
Just like with the snake on the pole. Only the ones who looked at it got healed.
You lost me, and it appears you still believe in works Justification.
 

Messy

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You lost me, and it appears you still believe in works Justification.
This text says Jesus did not only die for the elect. Your theory would work if the Bible wouldn't say things like John 3:16 and if the Bible wouldn't say He died for our sins and also those of the whole world. Because if what you say is true and the Bible is true, that He died for everyone and if it would say you don't get justified by faith (it says the opposite but whatever), it would mean universalism.
 
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Albion

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You lost me, and it appears you still believe in works Justification.
As noted earlier, that's only because you don't understand what "works" are.

Get that straight and the rest of the posts here will probably begin to make sense.
 

brightfame52

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This text says Jesus did not only die for the elect. Your theory would work if the Bible wouldn't say things like John 3:16 and if the Bible wouldn't say He died for our sins and also those of the whole world. Because if what you say is true and the Bible is true, that He died for everyone and if it would say you don't get justified by faith (it says the opposite but whatever), it would mean universalism.
You havent paid attention to a thing I have been explaining.
 

brightfame52

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As noted earlier, that's only because you don't understand what "works" are.

Get that straight and the rest of the posts here will probably begin to make sense.
If you condition Justification before God on anything you do, its works. I know that
 

Albion

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If you condition Justification before God on anything you do, its works. I know that
Sorry, no. That is not the meaning.

And you cannot "know" something that isn't true or real (such as the example we've dealt with here), unless you want to say that you know it to be false.
 

brightfame52

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Sorry, no. That is not the meaning.

And you cannot "know" something that isn't true or real (such as the example we've dealt with here), unless you want to say that you know it to be false.
Oh yeah, conditions and works, law all the same !
 

Albion

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Oh yeah, conditions and works, law all the same !
Hello again.

"All the same," huh? Well, here's a better approach.

Do a little study of the matter and FIND OUT what you're talking about.

This is an important matter, and none of us is well-served by merely passing it off as referring to "anything a person does." If you do that, you miss out on what's so important about Faith and why our Reformation-era forefathers made it one of their key issues.
 

brightfame52

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Hello again.

"All the same," huh? Well, here's a better approach.

Do a little study of the matter and FIND OUT what you're talking about.

This is an important matter, and none of us is well-served by merely passing it off as referring to "anything a person does." If you do that, you miss out on what's so important about Faith and why our Reformation-era forefathers made it one of their key issues.
Yep all the same. If you make faith the condition of Justification before God, then you may as well keep the whole law for Justification before God.

The only Faith required for Justification before God is Christs Faithfulness.
 

Albion

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Yep all the same. If you make faith the condition of Justification before God, then you may as well keep the whole law for Justification before God.
That idea makes no sense.

It's because it is not possible to keep the Law (meaning keep it perfectly and throughout the whole of one's life) that a Savior was needed. Christ was that Savior, and he paid the price for our sins, meaning that we can be saved in a different way, which is through Faith in him and what he did for us.

The Bible is very clear about this. If it instead were as you want it to be, huge parts of the New Testament would not exist, since there would be no need to call men to Faith. All of that would already be over and done with, according to your theory.
 

brightfame52

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That idea makes no sense.

It's because it is not possible to keep the Law (meaning keep it perfectly and throughout the whole of one's life) that a Savior was needed. Christ was that Savior, and he paid the price for our sins, meaning that we can be saved in a different way, which is through Faith in him and what he did for us.

The Bible is very clear about this. If it instead were as you want it to be, huge parts of the New Testament would not exist, since there would be no need to call men to Faith. All of that would already be over and done with, according to your theory.
Again if you make faith or anything else a condition you must meet for Justification before God, you may as well keep the whole law to be Justified before God, good luck with that.
 

Albion

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Again if you make faith or anything else a condition you must meet for Justification before God, you may as well keep the whole law to be Justified before God, good luck with that.
I don't "get" how throwing yourself upon the mercy of God--at his invitation--is supposed not to be any better than trying to keep every aspect of the Law for the whole of your life. The idea that we "might as well" keep the Law instead of believing and trusting Jesus for our salvation through Faith simply doesn't make sense.

The situation is understood by Christians to be as I have explained it here. That's because if it were not so, God would NOT have needed to become Man and die for the sins of Men! The whole of what the New Testament records would, in that case, be meaningless. Most of what is recorded for us in 27 books wouldn't have happened!

The coming of the Savior took place ONLY because this was the one way we could be forgiven and saved, for when Mankind had been under the Law, no one was able to keep the Law!




.
 
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brightfame52

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What the resurrection of Christ means !

1 Cor 15:17

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

If the resurrection of Christ didn't mean that those He died for are Justified from all their sins, then there would not have been any truth of Justification for Faith to receive and embrace, and faith would have been worthless, but the resurrection of Christ was a public exoneration that all those He died for are clear, of any accusation; free from guilt or blame before the Justice of God ! Rom 4:25

Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

The word Justification here is the greek word dikaiōsis and means:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification

Thats why for anyone Christ died for and was raised in behalf of, for anyone to die in their sins and unbelief, God is guilty of injustice and punishing eternally a Righteous person free from guilt and supposedly acceptable to Him !

At His resurrection it was a deliverance from out of the prison of death, declaring that by His death He hath received full satisfaction or propitiation, for all those sins and offences that Christ as Surety Shepherd haid charged to Him, meaning all the sins of the Elect or His Sheep, for remember He rose from the dead as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

So it is only reasonable to conclude that He died as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 ! So it was their sins that He was delivered for Rom 4:25;8:32 ! The resurrection of Christ means the Justification of all for whom He died ! 10
 
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