Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

It has to be applied by faith (put it on the door with hysop, eat His flesh, drink His blood). If Jesus died and gave His blood and then all the apostles were shy and lazy and noone ever heard the Gospel, then people could not be saved. The blood is important, but also the Spirit and the Word. Faith comes by hearing the Word. The Word, Gospel is the seed that is planted and then a faith plant comes up in the soil that bears fruit.

Jesus is our Passover Lamb.

Exodus 12​

121 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 "This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: 'On the tenth day of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household. 4 And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take it according to the number of the persons; according to each man's need you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight. 7 And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it. 8 Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. 13 Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

Here we go again, this is works !

 

[Albion]

You're so extremely worried that someone says they get saved by doing a good work. Faith is a gift from God. Paul says it's not a work. We are not saved by doing good works just means we're not saved by keeping the law, because the flesh can't keep the law. It can't please God.

It does mean that (the Law), but many people are of the impression that if they have been decent people, helpful, respectful, loving, etc. that this is what God commands (which is true) AND SO this is at least partly what will bring them salvation. The idea that Jesus did it all, and we can be saved by HIS good work, escapes them.

I have never heard anyone boast and say: look at me, how great I am!

I hear it often, except that it usually doesn't come with that level of boasting. But to think that "I've been good, so I believe I will go to heaven" is common.

 

[Messy]

It does mean that (the Law), but many people are of the impression that if they have been decent people, helpful, respectful, loving, etc. that this is what God commands (which is true) AND SO this is at least partly what will bring them salvation. The idea that Jesus did it all, and we can be saved by HIS good work, escapes them.

I hear it often, except that it usually doesn't come with that level of boasting. But to think that "I've been good, so I believe I will go to heaven" is common.

Yes I've been good, that one I have heard, but not: I had faith, golly, what a good work from myself.

 

[Messy]

Here we go again, this is works !

Great. You can't skip the works God tells us to do. He works em in us anyway and faith is not a good work from the flesh. Tell any 3 or 4 y o about Jesus and they will believe it and ask Him to come in their heart if you tell them they should do that.

 

[Messy]

I did not even know that this text existed, but I saw it on the mocking video from an atheist about Bible contradictions:

James 2:24​

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [f]your works, and I will show you my faith by [g]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [h]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [i]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [j]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Albion]

Yes I've been good, that one I have heard, but not: I had faith, golly, what a good work from myself.

No, that would be different, I agree. But we do have people here saying that to submit to baptism or to attend church services or just about anything that moves our muscles in connection with religion is wrong since it supposedly amounts to performing a "good work." Works righteousness!! Eek!

 

[prism]

Justification by His Blood !

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Now Justification by His Blood means at least these two things #1 They for whom He shed His Blood and Justified, they have been made Righteous ! The word Justified here in this verse is dikaioō and means:

I.
to render righteous or such he ought to be

II.
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

III.
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

All for whom He shed His Blood are by that declared Righteous, pronounced righteous !

And its not a result of faith or believing, but in His Blood ! It could read Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified in his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Justification is within the sphere of the Blood, not because of an act of the creature !

Its by the blood, that satisfied Law and Justice !

#2 They for whom The blood was shed for and Justified thereby are saved from wrath, because they are delivered from the penalty of sin ! All for whom Christ died are Justified in His Blood and have been delivered from the wrath to come as Per 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

See when He was raised from the dead after having died for THEIR OFFENCES, that Resurrection gave Evidence of all for whom He died, SHED HIS BLOOD for, it was evidence of their Justification from all their offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So they have been delivered from the wrath that others are not delivered from for their offences as Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

What things ? These things Eph 5:3-5

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Those Christ died for, shed His blood for, have been saved by the blood, from wrath , which is against those things, and a lot more, this list is by no means exhaustive, but neverthess, all for whom Christ shed His Blood for, in His Blood they are delivered from the wrath to come ! 10

Romans 3:25 ESV
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

 

[Albion]

I did not even know that this text existed, but I saw it on the mocking video from an atheist about Bible contradictions:

James 2:24​

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

As happens with other issues in Scripture, what appears to be a contradiction--so long as we read these expressions in the way that modern people frequently use them--leaves the reader confused or skeptical.

BUT, as so often is the case, reading the whole passage or (in this case) James' entire letter gives us the right perspective.

What he is saying is not that believing in salvation by faith is wrong but, rather, that CLAIMING to have saving faith simply because a person has decided to say he's a Christian is to miss the point entirely. That's what James is saying, and knowing it makes the verses in question understandable.

He's not attacking faith, and definitely not in favor of works as a substitute for faith. He's denouncing an alleged "faith" that doesn't make a change the person's lifestyle.

A new believer will necessarily respond by performing good works simply because he IS a disciple of Our Lord who taught us to do good...so if we encounter someone like James did, who says he has faith, but he doesn't act like someone with faith will act, he's fooling himself and doesn't have a real faith that saves.

 

[brightfame52]

Great. You can't skip the works God tells us to do. He works em in us anyway and faith is not a good work from the flesh. Tell any 3 or 4 y o about Jesus and they will believe it and ask Him to come in their heart if you tell them they should do that.

I thought you were coming away from works salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 3:25 ESV
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Yes its received by Faith, but not caused by Faith. Faith receives what is already True, it receives that one was Justified before by Christ.

 

[Messy]

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[Messy]

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[prism]

Yes its received by Faith, but not caused by Faith. Faith receives what is already True, it receives that one was Justified before by Christ.

Yes, faith is the empty hand that receives from God's grace.. without that empty hand there is no reception of His grace.

 

[Josiah]

Yes, faith is the empty hand that receives from God's grace.. without that empty hand there is no reception of His grace.

Agree.

Faith is a work, in a sense, but it's not our work. It is "the gift of God."

Note my signature line....

BOTH the Cross and faith are essential for personal justification... both are totally/wholly the work of God.


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[brightfame52]

Yes, faith is the empty hand that receives from God's grace.. without that empty hand there is no reception of His grace.

Correct, it receives what has already been done, Justification before God. Before Faith the Justified person is unaware of it. I hope you understand that Faith isnt causative of Justification before God, but receptive of it, to err in this matter is very serious.

 

[Messy]

Correct, it receives what has already been done, Justification before God. Before Faith the Justified person is unaware of it. I hope you understand that Faith isnt causative of Justification before God, but receptive of it, to err in this matter is very serious.

The hearing of the Word is important though. Although He did all sins away on the cross, you only get a new heart when you hear the Word and get the measure of faith. Then you are baptized in His death and can be raised with Him. It's not that I had gotten a new spirit already and was unaware of it.

For the [a]message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[Albion]

Correct, it receives what has already been done,

Nonsense. If that were true, endless sections of the New Testament which speak to the matter would be false.

In the Church of your own mind, anything goes, but the Bible is still God's word given for his disciples' guidance.

 

[Albion]

The hearing of the Word is important though.

It's not just "important." It's effective and essential.

With it, something changes; without it, we remain separated from God and salvation is impossible (unless one happens to be a Universalist. Not even a Hyper-Calvinist would argue that Faith is merely a sidelight to something else that had already been accomplished).

Although He did all sins away on the cross, you only get a new heart when you hear the Word and get the measure of faith. Then you are baptized in His death and can be raised with Him. It's not that I had gotten a new spirit already and was unaware of it.

For the [a]message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[Albion]

Yes its received by Faith, but not caused by Faith. Faith receives what is already True, it receives that one was Justified before by Christ.

It is made possible by Christ's sacrifice for the sins of mankind, and Faith is the medium by which all who are saved are reconciled to God. If there is no connection to the Savior, then such a person cannot be saved.

It is simply stupid to argue that God chose this person or that person to be saved and then it doesn't matter how he lives his life, whether as a follower of the Lord or as the most violent and self-serving of non-believers.

 

[prism]

Correct, it receives what has already been done, Justification before God. Before Faith the Justified person is unaware of it. I hope you understand that Faith isnt causative of Justification before God, but receptive of it, to err in this matter is very serious.

Before Faith Justified person is unaware of it.

Apparently God left that part out of His Word or are you making it up?

I hope you understand that Faith isnt causative of Justification before God, but receptive of it, to err in this matter is very serious.

I realize faith receives justification...doesn't cause it.