Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[prism]

No one was ever saved by keeping the Law. I explained that to you myself.

Here is what you said in post #553...

"All right, but surely you agree that the Law was given by God to the Hebrews for a reason and that obeying it was understood by them to be the way that they could be saved."

There would have been no need for God himself to become one of his creatures and pay the ultimate price for sin himself, doing so in order to save those who couldn't keep the Law by making his work available to us...if keeping the Law had been fairly simple to pull off!

True.

BUT then you say the rule wasn't keeping the Law but instead was Faith, which is just nonsense without a Scriptural basis.

Waaa? I gave you lots of proof texts in my last post, especially out of Galatians 3.

And when we speak of "Faith" normally, such as referring to the great debate of Luther's time (Sola Fide)...it's Faith IN CHRIST that we're talking about, not anything else. None of those few verses you produced even address the issue we've been discussing.

We'll try this again...

Romans 3:20 KJV
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Acts 15:10 KJV
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

If the Jews were saved by the law, how could they, when they couldn't keep it?

Faith in Christ, yes...

1 Corinthians 10:4,9 KJV
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Besides, the OT is full of types and shadows pointing to Christ, their Messiah.

Acts 7:37-39 LSB
This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers.’ [38] This is the one who, in the congregation in the wilderness, was with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai and with our fathers; the one who received living oracles to pass on to you. [39] Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him, but rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt,

When they rejected God's Word, they were rejecting Jesus the Logos of God.
This is why those in Hebrews 11 found approval, they believed God at His Word.

They had more than sufficient evidence to be saved By Faith. They had the Prophets speaking God's Word.

 

[Messy]

If the Jews were saved by the law, how could they, when they couldn't keep it?

To keep all the laws without faith: not believe in God, that's not even possible.
Deut 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

How can you love God if you don't believe He exists?

 

[Albion]

Here is what you said in post #553...

"All right, but surely you agree that the Law was given by God to the Hebrews for a reason and that obeying it was understood by them to be the way that they could be saved."


True.

Waaa? I gave you lots of proof texts in my last post, especially out of Galatians 3.


We'll try this again...

Romans 3:20 KJV
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Acts 15:10 KJV
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

If the Jews were saved by the law, how could they, when they couldn't keep it?

Faith in Christ, yes...

1 Corinthians 10:4,9 KJV
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Besides, the OT is full of types and shadows pointing to Christ, their Messiah.

Acts 7:37-39 LSB
This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers.’ [38] This is the one who, in the congregation in the wilderness, was with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai and with our fathers; the one who received living oracles to pass on to you. [39] Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him, but rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt,

When they rejected God's Word, they were rejecting Jesus the Logos of God.
This is why those in Hebrews 11 found approval, they believed God at His Word.

They had more than sufficient evidence to be saved By Faith. They had the Prophets speaking God's Word.

It's been explained repeatedly. Keeping the Law was God's requirement. The Hebrews couldn't keep it perfectly, nor can we, but if it had been kept perfectly, that would have made anyone doing so be deserving of eternal life.

As a result, God, out of love, paid the price for the failings of Men by his own sacrifice.

We appropriate that righteousness by Faith in Christ, just as he taught.

That's not "Faith" in something else, but in the person of Christ and his sacrifice on the Cross and in what that means. Faith can have different meanings, just as Word has different meanings. So long as the various meanings of either term continue to be mixed up, the basically straightforward process by which God has made men's salvation possible is likely not to make sense.

 

[prism]

It's been explained repeatedly. Keeping the Law was God's requirement. The Hebrews couldn't keep it perfectly, nor can we, but if it had been kept perfectly, that would have made anyone doing so be deserving of eternal life.

As a result, God, out of love, paid the price for the failings of Men by his own sacrifice.

We appropriate that righteousness by Faith in Christ, just as he taught.

That's not "Faith" in something else, but in the person of Christ and his sacrifice on the Cross and in what that means. Faith can have different meanings, just as Word has different meanings. So long as the various meanings of either term continue to be mixed up, the basically straightforward process by which God has made men's salvation possible is likely not to make sense.

Our conversation started with your statement: (post #523)

"t may be worth noting, however, that the uber-Calvinists who believe in predestination overwhelmingly offer OLD Testament verses in support of their belief, which means that they are basing their conviction upon the situation of mankind PRIOR to the Incarnation and the Sacrificing of God himself on behalf of his creation--a series of events that changed everything."

and my response: (post #534)
"I'm not even aware of OT passages verses that speak in terms of 'predestination', instead, I am aware of such as Eph 1 and Romans 8 and 9.
(maybe I'm just not uber enough )"

How this morphed into law/faith discussion beats me.
However, I'll take it you haven't any OT passages that 'uber-Reformed' use to defend Predestination.

 

[Messy]

It's been explained repeatedly. Keeping the Law was God's requirement. The Hebrews couldn't keep it perfectly, nor can we, but if it had been kept perfectly, that would have made anyone doing so be deserving of eternal life.

As a result, God, out of love, paid the price for the failings of Men by his own sacrifice.

We appropriate that righteousness by Faith in Christ, just as he taught.

That's not "Faith" in something else, but in the person of Christ and his sacrifice on the Cross and in what that means. Faith can have different meanings, just as Word has different meanings. So long as the various meanings of either term continue to be mixed up, the basically straightforward process by which God has made men's salvation possible is likely not to make sense.

They had faith that the Messiah would come and save them or that God was their Saviour and they chose Life by keeping the law and it sounds like Elijah, Moses and Enoch, although they were not always sinless, managed to get raptured to heaven. I see faith and works in the O.T. and the N.T., but works that flow out of faith, because faith without works is dead.

 

[brightfame52]

Justifieth Unbelievers !

Many in false organized religion, or even unorganized religion, people who claim to be Christian, but are not really, never believing the Gospel, many of them will say that God does not save unbelievers, but that is a bold face lie, where is the scripture that states that ? If that were true, then all men would be lost and without hope, because all men by nature are lost and imprisoned in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

All are by nature lost in the sphere of unbelief !

But yet Thanks be to God, that He does save / Justify unbelievers, ungodly people Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now the object of Faith here is God who is justifying the UNGODLY, and as such, they are unbelievers, and God who Justifies them as such, as ungodly, then unbelievers, that is before faith antecedently to the act of believing, which act is an evidence of their already Justification in Christ, for He rose and was Justified on their account Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[on account of] our offences, and was raised again for[on account of] our justification.

Simply meaning, if those on whose account He died for were not thereby Justified before God's Law and Justice before Him, then He would not have been risen from the dead ! And all believers that He died for are first unbelievers , so they were Justified while being unbelievers, the Resurrection proves it !10

 

[Albion]

They had faith that the Messiah would come and save them or that God was their Saviour and they chose Life by keeping the law

Except that no man can keep the Law. And the Messiah, to the ancient Hebrews, was a "savior" in the Earthly sense of a leader who would make them powerful as a nation. When the real Messiah did appear, they didn't believe, and that's because he was a spiritual deliverer!

and it sounds like Elijah, Moses and Enoch, although they were not always sinless, managed to get raptured to heaven.

God did use a few men in ancient times in order to further his work, but that doesn't mean that every person was a prophet, was going to lead his people across the Red Sea, or etc.

I see faith and works in the O.T. and the N.T., but works that flow out of faith, because faith without works is dead.

You're talking more about trust or loyalty there. When Christians say that they believe in salvation by Faith, it means something very specific and something that had not become possible until Christ appeared.

 

[Messy]

Except that no man can keep the Law.

Yes but still they could chose life or death by sinning or not sinning and when they sinned there was a blood offer that couldnt take away sin, but could cover it until Jesus came. Someone like Saul who just went against God, I'm not sure that he made it.

Romans 2
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[Albion]

Yes but still they could chose life or death by sinning or not sinning and when they sinned there was a blood offer that couldnt take away sin, but could cover it until Jesus came. Someone like Saul who just went against God, I'm not sure that he made it.

Have you forgotten that no one could have been admitted to heaven prior to the sacrifice of Christ while the Law governed--not even Moses, Joseph, and the other great figures of the Old Testament? There were those who were GOING TO be saved eternally, but not until....

 

[Messy]

Have you forgotten that no one could have been admitted to heaven prior to the sacrifice of Christ while the Law governed--not even Moses, Joseph, and the other great figures of the Old Testament? There were those who were GOING TO be saved eternally, but not until....

Yes they were not born again, but they were believers. And still Enoch and Elijah and Moses? didn't die and went to heaven, while Elijah sinned with those bears and Moses killed a man.

 

[Albion]

Yes they were not born again, but they were believers. And still Enoch and Elijah and Moses? didn't die and went to heaven, while Elijah sinned with those bears and Moses killed a man.

The Hebrews were not believers in the Christian sense. They were God's chosen forerunners, we might say, believing in the one true God but unaware of the Trinity and completely unaffected by the most important event in human history--God becoming Man in order to do for humans what they could not do for themselves.

 

[Messy]

According to the law I suppose Moses should have been killed, but that came later. According to the law David should have been killed, because of the fornication and murder. An atheist Jewish guy said to me that David needed no blood offer and it wasnt necessary that Jesus died, because God just forgave him, but that was because later Jesus was going to die and he was not born again, but safe in Abraham's bosom.

 

[Albion]

Yes they were not born again, but they were believers. And still Enoch and Elijah and Moses? didn't die and went to heaven, while Elijah sinned with those bears and Moses killed a man.

Were Moses and Elijah in heaven at the time of Jesus Christ? It's an unsettled question among Bible experts, but in any case we are speaking of something exceptional, not the condition and fate of thousands of ordinary Hebrews in OT times.

 

[prism]

To keep all the laws without faith: not believe in God, that's not even possible.
Deut 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

How can you love God if you don't believe He exists?

It's even impossible to keep all the laws with faith. We are completely dependent upon the imputed righteousness of Christ if we are to have any hope of passing God's Holy Bar of Justice.

 

[brightfame52]

Ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus !

1 Cor 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now what exactly does it mean to be Justified solely in the Name of the Lord ?

I will tell you now, it does not mean to be Justified by Faith ! What it does mean is that they were Justified solely in the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, in all that He is and has done, apart from anything they themselves have done; Remember Romans 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Yes, its the same word for Justified in 1 Cor 6:11, for they are both talking about the same thing, to be made Righteous solely by His One Obedience is the exact equivalent to being Justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ !

According to Rom 5:19b all for whom He died [His Obedience unto death] shall be made Righteous how ? Again by His One Obedience, which again is the same as being Justified in His Name; Also as He is their Head and Representative, what He accomplished in His Name, they accomplished together with Him; His Justification was actually and fully theirs Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Thats what it means to be Justified in His Name or in the Name of the Lord, In His Person and Work on Our Behalf, If He indeed lived and died and rose for Us ! 10

 

[brightfame52]

More to Understand about Justification !

In no wise is Justification the act of man, nor associated with any act of man, it does not depend on nor is it conditioned upon mans faith or believing or even his knowledge of it, for it is solely an Immanent Act of God as Judge, and its date in the Mind of God is Eternal, for He hath judged the case of His own Elect before the foundation of the World, as He hath chosen them in Him at that early date Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And then and there was their [the chosen] sins reckoned upon Him, the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:8; Isa 53:6, and because of this, God will never impute their sins upon them Ps 32:1-2

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The World of 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 is an Eternally Justified world, no question about it, and none of its citizens shall ever have any sin charged to them, for God will not impute sin to them BECAUSE , He has already imputed their sins to Christ, and by that they are Truly blessed; and because of His Suretyship, it was necessary for Him to fulfill the prophecy of Dan 9:24

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness/Justification, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

He was to bear the sins of the elect, to finish transgression, make an end to sins [of the elect], to make reconciliation for iniquity [for the people Heb 2:17]

Dan 9:24 is the Gospel Truth in a Nutshell, of the Work of Christ and what it should accomplish for the People ! 10

 

[Albion]

In no wise is Justification the act of man, nor associated with any act of man, it does not depend on nor is it conditioned upon mans faith or believing or even his knowledge of it, for it is solely an Immanent Act of God as Judge, and its date in the Mind of God is Eternal, for He hath judged the case of His own Elect before the foundation of the World, as He hath chosen them in Him at that early date Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In Ephesians 1:4, the reference is to all the members of Christ's Church, without distinction.

 

[brightfame52]

In Ephesians 1:4, the reference is to all the members of Christ's Church, without distinction.

Post 576 did you understand it ?

 

[Albion]

Post 576 did you understand it ?

Yes. And I already told you that your interpretation of the verse is in error.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. And I already told you that your interpretation of the verse is in error.

Explain my interpretation please