Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[prism]

And that's correct. They do. However, my comment there was incidental to the main purpose for me to have written that post. The hope was that I could settle the meaning of "works" for those members who, up to that point, were still in doubt about that issue. See post 530 for example.

Incidental or not, still, you made this claim below and I was curious if you have any backing for it? (from #523)

It may be worth noting, however, that the uber-Calvinists who believe in predestination overwhelmingly offer OLD Testament verses in support of their belief, which means that they are basing their conviction upon the situation of mankind PRIOR to the Incarnation and the Sacrificing of God himself on behalf of his creation--a series of events that changed everything.

 

[brightfame52]

More on Rom 4:5 Ungodly Justified !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Folks we do not believe in Justification by Faith unless we understand that we were Justified first by God while in a ungodly and faithless state !

The statement "him that justifieth the ungodly" is true only if He does Justify them while being Ungodly, being ungodly as in the present tense, while presently being in a state of Ungodliness. The scripture proves that God's Elect, those Christ died for Rom 8:33-34, that while in an active state of ungodliness, that at the same time they were in a state of passive Justification of Life Rom 5:18b

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The reason for this is because all for whom He died, has had a Robe of Righteousness imputed to them, Fod God hath made Him be unto them 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

And again, this while we are being in ourselves ungodly and enemies Rom 5:10, and such scripture as these establish the fact that God's Elect whom Christ died are Justified before God prior, anterior to Faith ! 9

 

[Albion]

Incidental or not, still, you made this claim below and I was curious if you have any backing for it? (from #523)

The many times that an OT verse has been mentioned or posted in support of that belief, as compared with the references made to NT verses.

This is important since--as I noted--the situation of mankind vs. God was different in OT times from the situation in NT times. As we all know, the Law was what governed before the coming of Christ, and no one could keep it. After the Sacrifice of the Cross, however, it is Faith in Christ which reconciled mankind to God because of God's action, not man's.

It is also important to notice that the OT verses that get cited are rather explicit, whereas the NT ones that are cited (regardless of the number in each category) are not.

Many of the latter ones, as they have been posted for us, are said by those members to support their view, but that is very much open to question unless the reader is willing to "read into" them what the poster wants. See posts 532, 533, and 540, for example.

 

[Lees]

This is important since--as I noted--the situation of mankind vs. God was different in OT times from the situation in NT times. As we all know, the Law was what governed before the coming of Christ, and no one could keep it. After the Sacrifice of the Cross, however, it is Faith in Christ which reconciled mankind to God because of God's action, not man's.

In other words...a different 'dispensation'.

Lees

 

[prism]

The many times that an OT verse has been mentioned or posted in support of that belief, as compared with the references made to NT verses.

Could you please give one or two OT examples?

This is important since--as I noted--the situation of mankind vs. God was different in OT times from the situation in NT times. As we all know, the Law was what governed before the coming of Christ, and no one could keep it. After the Sacrifice of the Cross, however, it is Faith in Christ which reconciled mankind to God because of God's action, not man's.

The situation has always been the same, where 'the just shall live by faith'. The law governed the Jewish nation, the Gentiles were governed by their conscience. Men were reconciled through the work of Christ; faith appropriated Jesus and His work.

It is also important to notice that the OT verses that get cited are rather explicit, whereas the NT ones that are cited (regardless of the number in each category) are not.

I would love to see a couple of those 'explicit OT verses'.

Many of the latter ones, as they have been posted for us, are said by those members to support their view, but that is very much open to question unless the reader is willing to "read into" them what the poster wants. See posts 532, 533, and 540, for example.

BrightFlame has his own peculiar views, which I'm obviously not convinced by.

 

[brightfame52]

More on Rom 4:5 Ungodly Justified !

If Justified before Faith, we are [if Christ died for us] Justified before our existence ! Now if scripture gives evidence of God's Elect being Justified before God before their Faith and even while being ungodly, being premised solely on the imputed righteousness of their Surety, then its very plausible, as a consequence of that same Imputed Righteousness that the Elect are Justified in the Sight of God before their actual [in time] existence, lest we conclude that the Surety Righteousness of Christ did not have that type of Merit and Excellence and transcendence in and of itself to Justify, but that it did need ones act of Faith to give it that Virtue !

 

[Albion]

The situation has always been the same, where 'the just shall live by faith'. The law governed the Jewish nation, the Gentiles were governed by their conscience.

No. In the OT, compliance with the Law, i.e. performance was expected. In the NT, as a result of the sacrifice of Christ, it is Faith in in him and HIS act that became the standard.

Men were reconciled through the work of Christ; faith appropriated Jesus and His work.

Indeed.

BrightFlame has his own peculiar views, which I'm obviously not convinced by.

I wouldn't say "obviously," but I'll take your word for it.

Hardly anyone agrees with his thinking on this subject, whether we're referring to those who believe in Free Will Or in predestination; in Good Works as meritorious Or in Faith Alone.

 

[Messy]

Could you please give one or two OT examples?

I would love to see a couple of those 'explicit OT verses'.

Bible Verses on Predestination from the Old Testament - RealFaith

God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac

realfaith.com

Btw I think it's based on Paul and NT verses, cause all the O.T. says is that God chose Israel.

 

[prism]

No. In the OT, compliance with the Law, i.e. performance was expected. In the NT, as a result of the sacrifice of Christ, it is Faith in in him and HIS act that became the standard.

Actually, the Law was meant for the Jewish nation..."Hear O Israel the Lord thy God is One...etc."

 

[prism]

Bible Verses on Predestination from the Old Testament - RealFaith

God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac

realfaith.com

Btw I think it's based on Paul and NT verses, cause all the O.T. says is that God chose Israel.

I agree, predestination is clearly spelled out in the NT, why someone would resort to the OT for proof texts beats me.

 

[Albion]

Actually, the Law was meant for the Jewish nation..."Hear O Israel the Lord thy God is One...etc."

...and the Law was to be obeyed. Salvation was based upon keeping the Law. Because perfect compliance was impossible or near-impossible, God deigned to do for Man what he could not do for himself...and that accomplishment is made available to humans by Faith.

 

[prism]

...and the Law was to be obeyed. Salvation was based upon keeping the Law. Because perfect compliance was impossible or near-impossible, God deigned to do for Man what he could not do for himself...and that accomplishment is made available to humans by Faith.

The law was to be obeyed...by Israel...they failed... until Jesus...who fulfilled all righteousness...in our stead, and now offers that free gift of righteousness through the Gospel, apart from which no man could be saved.

For purposes of the Gospel, the law is a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ. (I think we are saying basically the same thing, but I don't agree with, "Salvation was based upon keeping the Law." Abraham, before the law was given, was justified by faith.

Romans 4:1-4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? [2] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about—but not before God! [3] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” [4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not counted according to grace, but according to what is due.

 

[Albion]

The law was to be obeyed...by Israel...they failed... until Jesus...who fulfilled all righteousness...in our stead, and now offers that free gift of righteousness through the Gospel, apart from which no man could be saved.

For purposes of the Gospel, the law is a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ. (I think we are saying basically the same thing,

I think so, too.

but I don't agree with, "Salvation was based upon keeping the Law." Abraham, before the law was given, was justified by faith.

All right, but surely you agree that the Law was given by God to the Hebrews for a reason and that obeying it was understood by them to be the way that they could be saved.

Abraham may be an exception because of his particular place in God's plans, but the way to salvation was one thing PRIOR TO THE COMING OF THE SAVIOR, and that was changed thanks to the Sacrifice of the Cross.

Romans 4:1-4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? [2] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about—but not before God! [3] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” [4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not counted according to grace, but according to what is due.

 

[prism]

Abraham may be an exception because of his particular place in God's plans, but the way to salvation was one thing PRIOR TO THE COMING OF THE SAVIOR, and that was changed thanks to the Sacrifice of the Cross.

And the long list in Hebrews 11?

Hebrews 11:17,20-24,32 LSB
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only son, [20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. [21] By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. [22] By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave commands concerning his bones. [23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. [24] By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, [32] And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I recount Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, as well as David and Samuel and the prophets,

 

[Albion]

And the long list in Hebrews 11?

No one has claimed that God intended anyone to be FAITH-LESS.

That, however, is not what we have been talking about.

Before the coming of Christ, there were men and women who were Faithful, believed God and trusted God.

HOWEVER, heaven was not included for them at that time. As has been discussed and affirmed many times on these forums, those persons considered righteous by God prior to Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom, also called Paradise, to await the Savior.

 

[prism]

Abraham may be an exception because of his particular place in God's plans, but the way to salvation was one thing PRIOR TO THE COMING OF THE SAVIOR, and that was changed thanks to the Sacrifice of the Cross.

Let's try this again...

Galatians 3:15-17 KJV
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. [16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [17] And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Romans 4:13-14 KJV
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. [14] For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

The Covenant made to Abraham was an unconditional covenant based on faith/not law.
David, who was considered a man after God's own heart was saved by faith, not law keeping...

Romans 4:6-8 KJV
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

No one was ever saved by keeping the law, it was always by faith.

 

[Messy]

Let's try this again...

Galatians 3:15-17 KJV
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. [16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [17] And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Romans 4:13-14 KJV
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. [14] For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

The Covenant made to Abraham was an unconditional covenant based on faith/not law.
David, who was considered a man after God's own heart was saved by faith, not law keeping...

Romans 4:6-8 KJV
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

No one was ever saved by keeping the law, it was always by faith.

Amazing. Didn't know that.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[Albion]

No one was ever saved by keeping the law, it was always by faith.

No one was ever saved by keeping the Law. I explained that to you myself.

There would have been no need for God himself to become one of his creatures and pay the ultimate price for sin himself, doing so in order to save those who couldn't keep the Law by making his work available to us...if keeping the Law had been fairly simple to pull off!

BUT then you say the rule wasn't keeping the Law but instead was Faith, which is just nonsense without a Scriptural basis.

And when we speak of "Faith" normally, such as referring to the great debate of Luther's time (Sola Fide)...it's Faith IN CHRIST that we're talking about, not anything else. None of those few verses you produced even address the issue we've been discussing.

 

[Messy]

No one was ever saved by keeping the Law. I explained that to you myself.

There would have been no need for God himself to become one of his creatures and pay the ultimate price for sin himself, doing so in order to save those who couldn't keep the Law by making his work available to us...if keeping the Law had been fairly simple to pull off!

BUT then you say the rule wasn't keeping the Law but instead was Faith, which is just nonsense without a Scriptural basis.

And when we speak of "Faith" normally, such as referring to the great debate of Luther's time (Sola Fide)...it's Faith IN CHRIST that we're talking about, not anything else. None of those few verses you produced even address the issue we've been discussing.

Abraham had faith in Christ. With Sodom he talked to Jesus. YHWH on earth called fire down from YHWH in heaven.

Matthew 23
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

How Were People Saved in the Old Testament? — Bob Yandian Ministries:


The Eternal Gospel

If the means of salvation and spirituality has always been by faith, then the same gospel must have been preached then that is preached today.

“For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them (the wilderness generation)”(Hebrews 4:2). The same gospel was preached to those in the Old Testament, including those under the law, as it is to us. The Old Testament saints were saved, matured as disciples and were healed on what Jesus was yet to do. And in the New Testament we are saved, matured and healed on what Jesus has already done.

But they weren't really saved, born again yet then. That was not possible.