Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[prism]

You can quote all that,

So as a Calvinist you ought to be believing 'all that' (Westminster Confession of Faith).

you dont believe one is Justified before God prior to their believing, you said it. Thats not faith, but unbelief.

I think I made it ample clear that I believe one is an elect before the foundation of the world (decreed justified), and as an elect God works faith in their hearts (as a gift), whereupon they are justified in time.
Could you please provide some Scripture that supports justification apart from faith?

(See my Thursday @4:43pm post) where I said "Thx, I'll run with that.
I understand people are justified in God's sight before they believe, but I wanted something more tangible."

 

[brightfame52]

So as a Calvinist you ought to be believing 'all that' (Westminster Confession of Faith).

I think I made it ample clear that I believe one is an elect before the foundation of the world (decreed justified), and as an elect God works faith in their hearts (as a gift), whereupon they are justified in time.
Could you please provide some Scripture that supports justification apart from faith?

(See my Thursday @4:43pm post) where I said "Thx, I'll run with that.
I understand people are justified in God's sight before they believe, but I wanted something more tangible."

You made it ample clear that you don't believe that one Christ died for is justified before God before they believe so that is unbeiief

 

[prism]

You made it ample clear that you don't believe that one Christ died for is justified before God before they believe so that is unbeiief

Well, since I am consigned to unbelief (by you), does that mean Christ didn't die for my sins, nor have I hope to ever be justified? (am I being a victim of friendly fire?)

 

[brightfame52]

Well, since I am consigned to unbelief (by you), does that mean Christ didn't die for my sins, nor have I hope to ever be justified? (am I being a victim of friendly fire?)

All of Gods elect start off in unbelief, so there is hope if Christ died for you.

 

[prism]

All of Gods elect start off in unbelief, so there is hope if Christ died for you.

Pleeze, although born again 49 years ago and have continued trusting in Jesus and His righteousness during that period, yet I am deemed unsaved by you?? lol, You're right, before that I spent 25 years in unbelief, doing drugs, the occult, witchcraft, sexual promiscuity, gambling etc.
Yet God took me from that horrible pit and gave me a new heart and yet you pompously tell me I'm in unbelief?

 

[brightfame52]

Pleeze, although born again 49 years ago and have continued trusting in Jesus and His righteousness during that period, yet I am deemed unsaved by you?? lol, You're right, before that I spent 25 years in unbelief, doing drugs, the occult, witchcraft, sexual promiscuity, gambling etc.
Yet God took me from that horrible pit and gave me a new heart and yet you pompously tell me I'm in unbelief?

If a person denies that Jesus blood alone Justified a person before God, thats unbelief, because it did.

 

[brightfame52]

prism

Could you please provide some Scripture that supports justification apart from faith?

You kidding me right ? Thats all I have been doing in this thread, is providing scripture support for that Blessed Truth

 

[Messy]

prism



You kidding me right ? Thats all I have been doing in this thread, is providing scripture support for that Blessed Truth

No you proved by cherring picking some texts that the elect are justified before they get faith and added that you have to believe that to be saved, while the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith and not by faith in not needing to have faith yet to be justified and you added yourself that faith is a work, which is also not a Bible text and when I give you a Bible text you call it a rabbit trail.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[prism]

If a person denies that Jesus blood alone Justified a person before God, thats unbelief, because it did.

All of our actions, in thought, word and deed are before God...that explains nothing.

 

[brightfame52]

No you proved by cherring picking some texts that the elect are justified before they get faith and added that you have to believe that to be saved, while the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith and not by faith in not needing to have faith yet to be justified and you added yourself that faith is a work, which is also not a Bible text and when I give you a Bible text you call it a rabbit trail.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

You can call it cherry picking if you want, however its establishing truth with reasonable argumentation from scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

All of our actions, in thought, word and deed are before God...that explains nothing.

You lost me with that comment. Im saying for anyone to deny that Christs death alone for an individual, Justified them before Gods law and Justice, that puts them in unbelief, because Christs blood shed for that individual did Justify them before God, and faith is given to realize that fact Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[Albion]

No you proved by cherring picking some texts that the elect are justified before they get faith...

That's true. It doesn't make sense, nor is it Scriptural, to argue that before a person has faith in Christ and his saving work, he is already saved by faith.

...and you added yourself that faith is a work, which is also not a Bible text

Agreed.

Faith (believing, trusting) is not a "work." And this is a well-studied issue in the history of Christianity.

Catholicism taught and teaches that it is by Faith AND Works (meaning that they are not the same) that one is saved, while Protestants taught and teach that it is by Faith alone.

What church, we may ask, in all of Christian history and before the creation of this forum taught that it is by Election without Faith that mortals are justified??

 

[Messy]

You can call it cherry picking if you want, however its establishing truth with reasonable argumentation from scripture.

You may have a point that the reconciliation happened then, but it says nowhere that you have to believe that to be saved. Or do you mean you get saved by believing what happened then? Cause Torben Sondergaard says you have to believe and confess that you died and rose with Christ and then sin has no dominion over you, when you understand that and he says that before he understood that he had no freedom and it was like he wasn't really saved, although he got to know God, quit drugs etc, but he was still a slave to sin.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

[Messy]

That's true. It doesn't make sense, nor is it Scriptural, to argue that before a person has faith in Christ and his saving work, he is already saved by faith.


Agreed.

Faith (believing, trusting) is not a "work." And this is a well-studied issue in the history of Christianity.

Catholicism taught and teaches that it is by Faith AND Works (meaning that they are not the same) that one is saved, while Protestants taught and teach that it is by Faith alone.

What church, we may ask, in all of Christian history and before the creation of this forum taught that it is by Election without Faith that mortals are justified??

Hypercalvinism apparently according to wiki.

Hyper-Calvinism is a branch of Protestant theology that denies the universal duty of human beings to believe in Christ for the salvation of their souls.

But he says that you have to believe that you don't first have to believe.

 

[prism]

You lost me with that comment. Im saying for anyone to deny that Christs death alone for an individual, Justified them before Gods law and Justice, that puts them in unbelief, because Christs blood shed for that individual did Justify them before God, and faith is given to realize that fact Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Yes but Christ shed His blood for His Sheep in Time (during the Incarnation) and not in eternity. Faith is also given 'in time' because we're not eternal.

 

[brightfame52]

You may have a point that the reconciliation happened then, but it says nowhere that you have to believe that to be saved. Or do you mean you get saved by believing what happened then? Cause Torben Sondergaard says you have to believe and confess that you died and rose with Christ and then sin has no dominion over you, when you understand that and he says that before he understood that he had no freedom and it was like he wasn't really saved, although he got to know God, quit drugs etc, but he was still a slave to sin.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

I dont know what in the world you talking about now.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes but Christ shed His blood for His Sheep in Time (during the Incarnation) and not in eternity. Faith is also given 'in time' because we're not eternal.

I know when Christ actually shed His Blood in time, maybe 33 ad, so lets say a person who Christ died for wasnt born a sinner until 1957, was that sinner who Christ died for their sins in 33 ad, born a Justified sinner before Gods law and Justice ? Yes or no ?

 

[Albion]

No.

 

[Messy]

I know when Christ actually shed His Blood in time, maybe 33 ad, so lets say a person who Christ died for wasnt born a sinner until 1957, was that sinner who Christ died for their sins in 33 ad, born a Justified sinner before Gods law and Justice ? Yes or no ?

A justified sinner? What is that even? You're either justified, made just, a saint or a sinner. You get a new spirit when you accept Him and ask Him to forgive your sins. Not before that. The new spirit is 100 percent holy. Your soul is not immediately perfect and holy and has to be made holy and you need to learn to reign over your flesh, put to death the works of the flesh, Romans 8 and abide in Him:
Romans 5:10 having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
And Sondergaard and a guy from christian forums say if you confess and believe that you really died with Christ and rose with Christ and don't live anymore, but Christ in you, you get freedom. That's basically just giving up trying to do good works and say: Lord I can't. You do it. Just like Corrie ten Boom who could not forgive the ward from the concentration camp where her sister died. Lord I can't. You do it through me.

 

[prism]

I know when Christ actually shed His Blood in time, maybe 33 ad, so lets say a person who Christ died for wasnt born a sinner until 1957, was that sinner who Christ died for their sins in 33 ad, born a Justified sinner before Gods law and Justice ? Yes or no ?

Negatory good buddy...

Romans 5:9 KJV
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Galatians 2:16 ESV
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.