Predestination Romans 9 Potter and clay

[brightfame52]

Before the foundation of the world, because He knew man would sin. He didn't bother dying for fallen angels, but made man with a body, that could die, so we could be saved.
If Adam had not sinned, he would have been perfected by simply obeying and eating from the tree of life. He didn't have to sin, because Jesus wanted to die. It's the other way around.

So if He knew man would sin, man must sin, or God knew wrong, duh. So Adam had to sin, and before that, Jesus had to die, all according to Gods Purpose.

 

[Messy]

So if He knew man would sin, man must sin, or God knew wrong, duh. So Adam had to sin, and before that, Jesus had to die, all according to Gods Purpose.

Yes he was gonna sin, but knowing something doesn't make him do it. Ah you mean like Judas.

Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is [g]lost except the son of [h]perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

In this case I see Jesus picks Judas, although He knows who he is and although He knows that it will only add to his sin (it would have been better for him if he hadn't been born), but He doesn't care. He uses him for His purpose, as a vessel of wrath. It's not that Jesus had no clue, accidentally picked him and hey look in the O.T., they already prophecied this. Still it was his own choice.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes he was gonna sin, but knowing something doesn't make him do it. Ah you mean like Judas.

Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is [g]lost except the son of [h]perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

In this case I see Jesus picks Judas, although He knows who he is and although He knows that it will only add to his sin (it would have been better for him if he hadn't been born), but He doesn't care. He uses him for His purpose, as a vessel of wrath. It's not that Jesus had no clue, accidentally picked him and hey look in the O.T., they already prophecied this. Still it was his own choice.

Adam had to sin because Christ had to die. It was Gods will for Christ to die for sin before adam was Created. What came first Christ being foreordained to die as redeemer before the world began as stated here 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Adam was created here Gen 1:26-28

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

So what came first ?

 

[Messy]

Adam had to sin because Christ had to die. It was Gods will for Christ to die for sin before adam was Created. What came first Christ being foreordained to die as redeemer before the world began as stated here 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Adam was created here Gen 1:26-28

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

So what came first ?

That Jesus had to die. The Bible doesn't say what God's thought process was though. I assume something like: Lets make man. He will sin. Lets give him a body and die for his sins to get him back. Instead of: I want to die and be a Savior, so lets create Adam and force him to sin.

 

[Albion]

I have pointed it out.

Except that you didn't.

The problem here appears to be caused by your inability to differentiate between foreknowledge and foreordination. That's something that most students of the Bible learned early on.

The world was made for a redemptive purpose....

Now this is a different matter, although I suspect that you think you've explained what God intended when he created the universe. You haven't.

Claiming that the world WAS MADE FOR SUCH AND SUCH A PURPOSE is quite a different matter from pointing to what God DID as a result of Man defying Him, using the Free Will that God had endowed Adam and Eve with.

 

[brightfame52]

That Jesus had to die. The Bible doesn't say what God's thought process was though. I assume something like: Lets make man. He will sin. Lets give him a body and die for his sins to get him back. Instead of: I want to die and be a Savior, so lets create Adam and force him to sin.

Yes Jesus had to die, in fact in the Mind and Purpose of God He was slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Again 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

This was determined before man in Adam was ever created, Before Gen 1:1 took place, Christ must die, Adam and man in him must sin.

 

[brightfame52]

Except that you didn't.

The problem here appears to be caused by your inability to differentiate between foreknowledge and foreordination. That's something that most students of the Bible learned early on.


Now this is a different matter, although I suspect that you think you've explained what God intended when he created the universe. You haven't.

Claiming that the world WAS MADE FOR SUCH AND SUCH A PURPOSE is quite a different matter from pointing to what God DID as a result of Man defying Him, using the Free Will that God had endowed Adam and Eve with.

Yes I have, as far as my conscience before God is concerned. Now if you dont see what I see from and in scripture, thats not my care nor is it within any ability of mine to make you see.

 

[Messy]

Yes Jesus had to die, in fact in the Mind and Purpose of God He was slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Again 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

This was determined before man in Adam was ever created, Before Gen 1:1 took place, Christ must die, Adam and man in him must sin.

For you
So He had to die to save us from sin and Adam didn't have no choice but to sin. God only knew that he would go sin. Had Adam been like 2/3 of the angels and Eve too and all of their offspring, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die. But in a way I think he had to sin, not because God wanted him to, but because he didn't really know God yet. Jesus, the 2nd Adam didn't sin, because He knew the Father.

 

[brightfame52]

For you
So He had to die to save us from sin and Adam didn't have no choice but to sin. God only knew that he would go sin. Had Adam been like 2/3 of the angels and Eve too and all of their offspring, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die. But in a way I think he had to sin, not because God wanted him to, but because he didn't really know God yet. Jesus, the 2nd Adam didn't sin, because He knew the Father.

Yes Christ was set up before the world began to be A Saviour from sin, even before Adam was Created, Adam must sin and of course Christ must die in accordance to Gods Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[Albion]

Yes I have, as far as my conscience before God is concerned.

Now if you dont see what I see from and in scripture, thats not my care nor is it within any ability of mine to make you see.

In that case, online discussion boards dealing with religious matters wouldn't be your thing, would they? Not only don't you want to discuss the issues there or care if readers are persuaded by what you post, but now you're saying that you don't have the ability anyway. Have you given any thought to participating on one of the threads here that deal in something other than theology?

 

[Albion]

Yes Christ was set up before the world began to be A Saviour from sin, even before Adam was Created, Adam must sin and of course Christ must die in accordance to Gods Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

However, Ephesians 3 doesn't say any such thing. Read the whole passage.

"7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence."

 

[brightfame52]

In that case, online discussion boards dealing with religious matters wouldn't be your thing, would they? Not only don't you want to discuss the issues there or care if readers are persuaded by what you post, but now you're saying that you don't have the ability anyway. Have you given any thought to participating on one of the threads here that deal in something other than theology?

We can discuss what I posted, thats why I posted it, but i cant make folk see truth, thats Gods domain, but I can discuss it, if its what I posted.

 

[brightfame52]

However, Ephesians 3 doesn't say any such thing. Read the whole passage.

"7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence."

What you mean it doesnt say it ? It sets forth the Truth that God had a Eternal Purpose in Christ before the world was ever created.

 

[Albion]

We can discuss what I posted, thats why I posted it, but i cant make folk see truth, thats Gods domain, but I can discuss it, if its what I posted.

But in several of your replies you already refused to discuss it, and the Bible verse doesn't say what you claimed it says about Adam being required by God to sin, etc.

 

[brightfame52]

messy

If Adam had not sinned, he would have been perfected by simply obeying and eating from the tree of life

God had purposed an Higher Grander Perfection for His People in Christ that Adam could never had provided with all the obedience he could perform. God had purposed a perfection provided by the Death of Christ long before Adam was ever Created Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[brightfame52]

But in several of your replies you already refused to discuss it, and the Bible verse doesn't say what you claimed it says about Adam being required by God to sin, etc.

Impossible, every time I post Im discussing what I posted, I refuse rabbit trails

 

[brightfame52]

But in several of your replies you already refused to discuss it, and the Bible verse doesn't say what you claimed it says about Adam being required by God to sin, etc.

I say Adam was required to sin because Christ was required to die for sin that Adam would bring into the world before Adam was created. This was Gods Eternal Purpose in Christ prior to Adams creation Eph 3:11 and so Adam was created for that Purpose in sync with Christ Col 1:16

16 For by him[Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him[Christ]:

Now was Adam Created by Christ for Christ according to Col 1:16 ? So I see Adam being required to sin according to purpose, but I cant make you see what I see. and Im not chasing any rabbit trails

 

[Albion]

Impossible, every time I post Im discussing what I posted, I refuse rabbit trails

Exactly what in the following replies that you posted, is there something that amounts to you "discussing" anything?--

Its there, however that doesnt mean you see it, I dont make my statements of what I see in scripture based upon if whether you see it or not, it makes no difference if you see it, but that God sees it.

I have pointed it out. Like I said you cant see it, I can

Yes I have, as far as my conscience before God is concerned. Now if you dont see what I see from and in scripture, thats not my care nor is it within any ability of mine to make you see.

 

[Messy]

messy



God had purposed an Higher Grander Perfection for His People in Christ that Adam could never had provided with all the obedience he could perform. God had purposed a perfection provided by the Death of Christ long before Adam was ever Created Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Could be, but I'm not sure, cause in heaven he who overcomes may eat from the tree of Life. First you have to die with Christ, overcome sin and temptation and then you may eat from the tree and become like God, who will be all in all. But then they had no sin. They could simply say not today satan and just eat from the tree of Life instead. Eternal life is to know Him.

 

[Messy]

Maybe you're right. God wanted to make people like Himself, perfect and it's maybe not possible without suffering. How can you expect Adam, who had maybe just known God for a few weeks, to be immediately like Jesus and protect Eve. Hey Eve, watch out. Don't go outside alone. Don't talk to talking snakes. And she wanted to sin. Could he even prevent it? Should he dump her and follow God himself? I always feel sorry for Adam.