Predestination Romans 9 Potter and clay

[Albion]

God created Adam for Jesus Christ,, so Adam must and had to sin, it was Gods Purpose.

There's no reason to think that God's plan was to arrange to have a dishonorable creature (Adam)...so that He could then punish Adam and his descendants.

The only way that the Genesis account holds together is if the first humans were given Free Will and were able--as the lower forms of life are not able--to either choose God or reject Him.

 

[brightfame52]

Proverbs 16:4—Does God make people to be doomed?

Is there a Bible contradiction in Proverbs 16:4? Here’s the solution from When Critics Ask by Geisler and Howe; used by permission.

defendinginerrancy.com

On the one hand, the Bible speaks of human beings as having free choice (Matt. 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9) and being responsible for their own destiny (cf. Ezek. 18:20; John 3:36). On the other hand, Solomon declares here that “the Lord made ... even the wicked for the day of doom.” Indeed, Paul speaks of some people being “vessels of wrath” (Rom. 9:22). How can we justify God making people in order to destroy them?

God does not create people in order to destroy them. God loves “the world” (John 3:16), and Christ died “for the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Indeed, Christ’s blood “bought” even those who deny Him (2 Peter 2:1). And God “is not willing that any should perish” (2 Peter 3:9). There is a hell, but it was not prepared for human beings. Jesus said it was “prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41).

The word “made” (asah) has broad usage in Hebrew. It can mean “appoint” or “institute” or even “administer.” God is in sovereign control of the entire universe. Even when humans intend something for evil, God can mean it for good (Gen. 50:20). In this sense, “Surely the wrath of man shall praise You” (Ps. 76:10). For “in all things God works for the good” (Rom. 8:28, niv). So even the “day of doom” is “for” God in the sense that He is in control of it and it will ultimately redound to His glory. For God’s love is magnified in heaven, and His justice is manifest in hell.

Of course, it is not God’s directive will that anyone be judged, but in His sovereign will He has appointed (“made”) that even judgment on sin will magnify Him. Nonetheless, God “desires all men come to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4). Even the “vessels of wrath” were only “prepared for destruction” (Rom. 9:22) because they refused to repent, since God patiently “endured [them] with much longsuffering,” waiting for them to repent (cf. 2 Peter 3:9).

In brief, God’s prescriptive will is that all be saved. His permissive will is that some be lost (those who refuse to repent). And God’s providential will is that He will bring ultimate good, even out of evil. In this sense, all things are made for (i.e., appointed by) Him.


2 Timothy 2
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, [h]sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

No scripture says man has a free choice. There is a scripture that says God made the wicked for the day of evil, the day of His Wrath Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God has them reserved for the day of wrath Job 21:30


That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

These are the vessels of wrath made for destruction Rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

They never had or will have salvation, God didnt make them for that purpose.

 

[brightfame52]

Then He would have said: Go sin Adam. Eat from that forbidden tree. God does not lie.

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die.”

God only knew he would sin and had a salvation plan before the foundation of the earth.

He didnt have to say that. Christ must die so Adam must sin.

 

[brightfame52]

There's no reason to think that God's plan was to arrange to have a dishonorable creature (Adam)...so that He could then punish Adam and his descendants.

The only way that the Genesis account holds together is if the first humans were given Free Will and were able--as the lower forms of life are not able--to either choose God or reject Him.

Christ must be Glorified so Adam must sin. Adam was Created so Christ might be Glorified Col 1:16-18

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

[Albion]

No scripture says man has a free choice.

Probably no more than 30 or 40 different verses.

 

[Messy]

No scripture says man has a free choice.

They had a choice. Adam had a free choice. Paul in Romans 7 did what he didn't want, but he called out to God and had freedom in Romans 8 and before that, when he heard Jesus say why do you persecute Me, he did chose for Him, although he had no total free will to not sin. If someone really has no choice, God helps him, like the demoniac. He had zero free choice, but when Jesus set him free, he did chose God instead of satan.

God didn't make the vessels of wrath as in create their character:

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of [h]hell as yourselves.

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’
Matthew 13:24‭-‬28 NKJV

 

[Albion]

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Most Christians, of whatever denomination, are aware that God created Adam good. That neither proves or disproves that Adam was given Free Will.

However, God also gave Adam a choice in the garden, and Adam chose to defy God's explicit instructions. None of that accords with the notion that Adam was created without Free Will.

Indeed, most Christians who are of the minority that believes in predestination understand that the Elect (according to that belief) are selected as a consequence of Adam and Eve's disobedience. We mortals now must labor for our existence, die a physical death, and etc. Had our first parents been without a choice when approached by Satan, they wouldn't have been guilty and wouldn't have felt that guilt, and whatever their decision, they wouldn't have been punished for it.

 

[Messy]

He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
Matthew 13:37‭-‬39 NKJV

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/9337/Satan-as-Sower-Tares.htm

The parables in Matthew 13 come after a verbal altercation with the Pharisees in which Jesus calls them a “brood of vipers” (Matthew 12:34), indicating they were offspring of the serpent—sons of Satan—because they bore his spiritual image. John the Baptist also dubs the Pharisees and Sadducees a “brood of vipers,” implying they will be burned like the tares (Matthew 3:7-12). In John 8:44, Jesus tells the Pharisees that they were of their father the Devil, just another way of saying “sons of the wicked one.” He uses parallel imagery in Matthew 15:13, again regarding the Pharisees: “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.”

Jesus says that “while men slept,” the “enemy came and sowed tares” (Matthew 13:25). The Bible often uses sleep as a symbol of obliviousness, non-awareness, or inattention. As such, it is frequently a negative symbol, often coinciding with lethargy, apathy, and letting down in one's duties (see Proverbs 6:4-10; 24:30-34).

Within Israel, God appointed watchmen who were not merely to keep an eye out for approaching armies but were also to monitor the nation's moral condition (see Isaiah 56:10-11). Those who should have sounded the alarm about the problems creeping into the nation before the captivity were—as we would say—asleep at the switch! Focused on their own concerns, they allowed ungodly elements to take root, leading to the nation's spiritual downfall.

 

[brightfame52]

Probably no more than 30 or 40 different verses.

Man is a sinner by nature a servant to sin, can't will against that.

 

[brightfame52]

They had a choice. Adam had a free choice. Paul in Romans 7 did what he didn't want, but he called out to God and had freedom in Romans 8 and before that, when he heard Jesus say why do you persecute Me, he did chose for Him, although he had no total free will to not sin. If someone really has no choice, God helps him, like the demoniac. He had zero free choice, but when Jesus set him free, he did chose God instead of satan.

God didn't make the vessels of wrath as in create their character:

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of [h]hell as yourselves.

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’
Matthew 13:24‭-‬28 NKJV

Adam had no choice but to sin, Christ had no choice but to die. This was God's purpose

 

[brightfame52]

Most Christians, of whatever denomination, are aware that God created Adam good. That neither proves or disproves that Adam was given Free Will.

However, God also gave Adam a choice in the garden, and Adam chose to defy God's explicit instructions. None of that accords with the notion that Adam was created without Free Will.

Indeed, most Christians who are of the minority that believes in predestination understand that the Elect (according to that belief) are selected as a consequence of Adam and Eve's disobedience. We mortals now must labor for our existence, die a physical death, and etc. Had our first parents been without a choice when approached by Satan, they wouldn't have been guilty and wouldn't have felt that guilt, and whatever their decision, they wouldn't have been punished for it.

God created Adam for a Redemption purpose that necessitated sin!

 

[Messy]

Adam had no choice but to sin, Christ had no choice but to die. This was God's purpose

Jesus as a human had a choice. Because He chose to give up His own life, we can be saved. Not My will be done, but Thy will.

If Adam had no choice and it was all deceitful puppet play, that would make God evil.

 

[Albion]

God created Adam for a Redemption purpose that necessitated sin!

Try finding that in Scripture!

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus as a human had a choice. Because He chose to give up His own life, we can be saved. Not My will be done, but Thy will.

If Adam had no choice and it was all deceitful puppet play, that would make God evil.

No Jesus had no choice not to die and Adam had no choice not to sin. Jesus death was established to occur before the world began 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So when Adam was created, he had to die in alignment with Christs Redemptive purpose established before the foundation, before Adam was created.

 

[brightfame52]

Try finding that in Scripture!

Its there, however that doesnt mean you see it, I dont make my statements of what I see in scripture based upon if whether you see it or not, it makes no difference if you see it, but that God sees it.

 

[Messy]

No Jesus had no choice not to die and Adam had no choice not to sin. Jesus death was established to occur before the world began 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So when Adam was created, he had to die in alignment with Christs Redemptive purpose established before the foundation, before Adam was created.

Why not: God knew he would sin and that He would save him, so Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth? Now it sounds like God wanted him to sin.

 

[Albion]

Its there, however that doesnt mean you see it,

If it were there, you'd have pointed all readers to it--just as you normally do.

I dont make my statements of what I see in scripture based upon if whether you see it or not, it makes no difference if you see it, but that God sees it.

In other words, every theory you come up with that isn't in accord with the Bible can be justified by saying, "But God sees it."

Well, if "God sees it," and it matters to us (which this one dealing with the purpose of Creation itself obviously does), he'd have included it in his revelation to mankind, Holy Scripture.

Otherwise, people would be left to their imagining and might come up all manner of misleading notions.

 

[brightfame52]

Why not: God knew he would sin and that He would save him, so Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth? Now it sounds like God wanted him to sin.

The world was made for a redemptive purpose, so Adam must sin, Christ must die. I showed you that Christ was set up to die for sin and redeem before Adam was created. 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now when was Christ foreordained to die for sin according to this scripture ?

 

[brightfame52]

If it were there, you'd have pointed all readers to it--just as you normally do.


In other words, every theory you come up with that isn't in accord with the Bible can be justified by saying, "But God sees it."

Well, if "God sees it," and it matters to us (which this one dealing with the purpose of Creation itself obviously does), he'd have included it in his revelation to mankind, Holy Scripture.

Otherwise, people would be left to their imagining and might come up all manner of misleading notions.

I have pointed it out. Like I said you cant see it, I can

 

[Messy]

The world was made for a redemptive purpose, so Adam must sin, Christ must die. I showed you that Christ was set up to die for sin and redeem before Adam was created. 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now when was Christ foreordained to die for sin according to this scripture ?

Before the foundation of the world, because He knew man would sin. He didn't bother dying for fallen angels, but made man with a body, that could die, so we could be saved.
If Adam had not sinned, he would have been perfected by simply obeying and eating from the tree of life. He didn't have to sin, because Jesus wanted to die. It's the other way around.