Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Lamb]

Its the whole Issue. Christ by His death Justified the ungodly.

Yep, that's all of us. But not all of us benefit from it and subjectively need God to bring that justification to us personally. He does that when He uses the Law to accuse us of our sin, then He repents us! He turns us to Him in faith when He gives us the Gospel and converts us from the Old Adam into the New. That's subjective justification.

 

[brightfame52]

Yep, that's all of us. But not all of us benefit from it and subjectively need God to bring that justification to us personally. He does that when He uses the Law to accuse us of our sin, then He repents us! He turns us to Him in faith when He gives us the Gospel and converts us from the Old Adam into the New. That's subjective justification.

No it is not all of us, it is all the justified ungodly. Not All the ungodly are justified!

 

[Albion]

Yep, that's all of us. But not all of us benefit from it and subjectively need God to bring that justification to us personally. He does that when He uses the Law to accuse us of our sin, then He repents us! He turns us to Him in faith when He gives us the Gospel and converts us from the Old Adam into the New. That's subjective justification.

True enough. The greater part of Christ's ministry on Earth would have to be considered a pointless exercise if his death was done only for the benefit of a select few.

His many admonitions, advice, and calls (to all manner of people) for trust in his work and his promises would have been done by him for...what? Was all of that pure show?

Well of course, this is why folks who argue that the Bible teaches salvation by decree and for only a certain few sinners will not address the dozens of Bible verses which unequivocally reject their theory, even though they continue to affirm their belief in the Bible as the word of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Isa 53:11 " Shall Justify Many"

Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

NT counterpart Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The Isa 53:11 also reads as:

11 He shall see [the fruit] of the travail of His soul and be satisfied; by His knowledge of Himself [which He possesses and imparts to others] shall My [uncompromisingly] righteous One, My Servant, justify many and make many righteous (upright and in right standing with God), for He shall bear their iniquities and their guilt [with the consequences, says the Lord].AMP


Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities. ESV

Now it appears from this scripture Isa 53:11 that all for whom Christ died, which is to bear their iniquities, resulted in them being Justified or accounted Righteous.

However, punishment of sin in and of itself makes no one Righteous, yet it does pay their sin debt to God's Justice, but in order to be declared Righteous as well, God must indeed view us as Righteous, hence we conclude that all for whom He died also had Christ's Righteousness Imputed to them, charged to them, that is His Active Obedience to all of God's Commandments, His Holy Law in Mind, Heart, Soul and Strength ! 8

 

[Albion]

However, punishment of sin in and of itself makes no one Righteous, yet it does pay their sin debt to God's Justice, but in order to be declared Righteous as well, God must indeed view us as Righteous, hence we conclude that all for whom He died also had Christ's Righteousness Imputed to them, charged to them,

By Faith.

that is His Active Obedience to all of God's Commandments, His Holy Law in Mind, Heart, Soul and Strength ! 8

No. If keeping the Law perfectly--which was the rule prior to Christ's atoning sacrifice--was the means by which "Christ's Righteouness" was "imputed to them," none could be saved.

Why it is that we keep reading posts from members who have removed Faith from their thinking (even though Christ talked relentlessly about its importance), is hard to understand. Seriously.

 

[Messy]

Isa 53:11 " Shall Justify Many"

Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

NT counterpart Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The Isa 53:11 also reads as:

11 He shall see [the fruit] of the travail of His soul and be satisfied; by His knowledge of Himself [which He possesses and imparts to others] shall My [uncompromisingly] righteous One, My Servant, justify many and make many righteous (upright and in right standing with God), for He shall bear their iniquities and their guilt [with the consequences, says the Lord].AMP


Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities. ESV

Now it appears from this scripture Isa 53:11 that all for whom Christ died, which is to bear their iniquities, resulted in them being Justified or accounted Righteous.

However, punishment of sin in and of itself makes no one Righteous, yet it does pay their sin debt to God's Justice, but in order to be declared Righteous as well, God must indeed view us as Righteous, hence we conclude that all for whom He died also had Christ's Righteousness Imputed to them, charged to them, that is His Active Obedience to all of God's Commandments, His Holy Law in Mind, Heart, Soul and Strength ! 8

If you die with Christ, the old man dies and you get raised with Him. You get a new heart, spirit. The law gets written in your heart. If you overcome by faith, you go from Romans 7 to 8 and get victory and the whole church becomes mature like Christ. So before you accept Jesus you're not righteous. He died for us when we were dead in our sins. When you come to faith, follow Him, you get a new heart. It's not that God keeps a hand in front of His face and fools Himself and sees clearly that you're doing a lousy job, but decides to see you as righteous, while you're not. Your spirit is holy, but you still have to say no to your flesh. The flesh doesn't get reborn.

 

[brightfame52]

By Faith.

No. If keeping the Law perfectly--which was the rule prior to Christ's atoning sacrifice--was the means by which "Christ's Righteouness" was "imputed to them," none could be saved.

Why it is that we keep reading posts from members who have removed Faith from their thinking (even though Christ talked relentlessly about its importance), is hard to understand. Seriously.

Christ fulfilled the Law in one sense by keeping its Moral Precepts Perfectly as God commanded, and He did it for the Elect, so they are through Him Justified before God, as it is written Rom 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Now if you or I are blessed to be one of the ones Christ fulfilled the Law for, and was Justified, then we will be given Faith to believe it.

 

[brightfame52]

If you die with Christ, the old man dies and you get raised with Him. You get a new heart, spirit. The law gets written in your heart. If you overcome by faith, you go from Romans 7 to 8 and get victory and the whole church becomes mature like Christ. So before you accept Jesus you're not righteous. He died for us when we were dead in our sins. When you come to faith, follow Him, you get a new heart. It's not that God keeps a hand in front of His face and fools Himself and sees clearly that you're doing a lousy job, but decides to see you as righteous, while you're not. Your spirit is holy, but you still have to say no to your flesh. The flesh doesn't get reborn.

If Christ died for a person, they did die with Christ, they were crucified with Him as Paul testifed to Gal 2:20

20 I am /was crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In the original its in the past tense aorist, Paul was Crucified with Christ as well as all believers had been, and they were Justified !

 

[Messy]

If Christ died for a person, they did die with Christ, they were crucified with Him as Paul testifed to Gal 2:20

20 I am /was crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In the original its in the past tense aorist, Paul was Crucified with Christ as well as all believers had been, and they were Justified !

Yes but he was talking to believers there. It had happened spiritually or whatever, but it hasnt really happened yet if you're not saved yet. Else you wouldn't have to tell ppl the gospel. Just like by His stripes we are healed, you're really healed when you stand on that and believe it and take it. Of course, before that you also confess that you're healed, well, if you're from the Word of Faith, but if you haven't built your faith yet with the Word, you can't just do what you couldn't do or maybe you can, but you don't believe it, so it's no use yet and not everyone always gets healed.

Is that what you mean? Then I may start to follow what you're saying. It's just not practical to confess that someone who is an atheist is saved. What I would say as a positive confession is: that's a christian to be, when I was praying for someone to get saved, like my dad. Lol my mom talked like you do and she would just tell my kids: yes grandpa is christian. He didnt believe in God. He looked at me like: okay whatever haha your mom again. Never mind.
Now he is saved. She told him he had to accept Jesus now and he did.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes but he was talking to believers there. It had happened spiritually or whatever, but it hasnt really happened yet if you're not saved yet. Else you wouldn't have to tell ppl the gospel. Just like by His stripes we are healed, you're really healed when you stand on that and believe it and take it. Of course, before that you also confess that you're healed, well, if you're from the Word of Faith, but if you haven't built your faith yet with the Word, you can't just do what you couldn't do or maybe you can, but you don't believe it, so it's no use yet and not everyone always gets healed.

Is that what you mean? Then I may start to follow what you're saying. It's just not practical to confess that someone who is an atheist is saved. What I would say as a positive confession is: that's a christian to be, when I was praying for someone to get saved, like my dad. Lol my mom talked like you do and she would just tell my kids: yes grandpa is christian. He didnt believe in God. He looked at me like: okay whatever haha your mom again. Never mind.
Now he is saved. She told him he had to accept Jesus now and he did.

Yes he was talking to believers but he or they werent believers when Christ was crucified and they with Christ, it was before they were born sinners.

 

[Albion]

Yes he was talking to believers but he or they werent believers when Christ was crucified and they with Christ, it was before they were born sinners.

I think that needs some clarification.

 

[Messy]

I think that needs some clarification.

Most got saved after Jesus died. Actually all of them couldn't be born again before He died.

1 Peter 2:24​

24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose [a]stripes you were healed.

Galatians 2
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

When did Galatians 2 happen?
This makes me think of what Thorben Sondergaard preaches:

Romans 6:3-4 NKJV​

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[Albion]

But what do you take to be the meaning of this in particular...?

...it** was before they were born sinners.

**an apparent reference to something (?) existing prior to a person's birth in sin.

 

[brightfame52]

I think that needs some clarification.

Its simple. Lets say someone believes in Christ in 2023, when did Christ die for them ? Was it in 2023 when they believed, or in 33 ad before they existed ?

 

[Messy]

Its simple. Lets say someone believes in Christ in 2023, when did Christ die for them ? Was it in 2023 when they believed, or in 33 ad before they existed ?

Around 33 ad, but did they then die also? Cause if so they wouldn't be born in sin. They would be born with a new reborn spirit. In a way yes you're right, but that's only looking back after you got saved. I once whined to God that I wanted to die and got a thought: You already did! 2000 years ago. But imagine I would think that before I got to know Jesus. That's no way to cheer someone up. You say hey come get to know Jesus and get a new life.

 

[brightfame52]

Around 33 ad, but did they then die also? Cause if so they wouldn't be born in sin. They would be born with a new reborn spirit. In a way yes you're right, but that's only looking back after you got saved. I once whined to God that I wanted to die and got a thought: You already did! 2000 years ago. But imagine I would think that before I got to know Jesus. That's no way to cheer someone up. You say hey come get to know Jesus and get a new life.

Yes, those for whom Christ died, died also , was crucified with Him, thats what Paul said, I just shared that Gal 2:20

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Thats actually I was crucified with Christ.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.ASV


I have been crucified with Christ [that is, in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body I live by faith [by adhering to, relying on, and completely trusting] in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. AMP


When the Messiah was executed on the stake as a criminal, I was too; so that my proud ego no longer lives. But the Messiah lives in me, and the life I now live in my body I live by the same trusting faithfulness that the Son of God had, who loved me and gave himself up for me. CJB

So the people who Christ died for, they are before they are born, Justified before God from all sin !

 

[Messy]

Yes, those for whom Christ died, died also , was crucified with Him, thats what Paul said, I just shared that Gal 2:20

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Thats actually I was crucified with Christ.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.ASV


I have been crucified with Christ [that is, in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body I live by faith [by adhering to, relying on, and completely trusting] in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. AMP


When the Messiah was executed on the stake as a criminal, I was too; so that my proud ego no longer lives. But the Messiah lives in me, and the life I now live in my body I live by the same trusting faithfulness that the Son of God had, who loved me and gave himself up for me. CJB

So the people who Christ died for, they are before they are born, Justified before God from all sin !

Romans 6
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were [e]delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

They became justified when they obeyed from the heart, the old man died with Christ when they were baptized or saved. Before that they had an old sin nature and it was not dead yet and they were not justified or right with God yet. But yes it does say we died with Him, which happened 2000 years ago, so how that works I have no idea. Maybe when you say yes it comes to effect in retroaction?

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 6
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were [e]delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

They became justified when they obeyed from the heart, the old man died with Christ when they were baptized or saved. Before that they had an old sin nature and it was not dead yet and they were not justified or right with God yet. But yes it does say we died with Him, which happened 2000 years ago, so how that works I have no idea. Maybe when you say yes it comes to effect in retroaction?

One obeys from the Heart because they were already Justified by the death of Christ. Obedience is the fruit of Justification not the cause. When Christ died in 33 ad everyone one He died for died with Him, they also rose with Him Justified Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[brightfame52]

Justification an act of God's Grace !

Justification an act of God's Grace Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

in that He Remits or does not impute the sins of the elect, the Church, His Sheep upon them and accepts them as Righteous :

Being treated as if righteous; that is, being regarded and treated as if they had kept the Law. Barnes Notes

Not in themselves are they considered Righteous, but in His Sight by Redemption through Christ and Imputed Righteousness, which however in time will be received by them by God given Faith from New Birth.

This Justification is Threefold, #1 Its in Eternity or from Eternity, in that Christ before the world began, was made a Surety for all those Chosen in Him, His Seed, He therefore by Surety pledge took their trespasses [to be committed in time] upon Himself.

The Surety principle is here stated Prov 6:1

My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger,

Christ in this case engaged Himself before the foundation, to pay the debt incurred by His Friends unto God's Law and Justice. Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

We believe that this Testament is the one stated here Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant or testament,

We believe its mentioned here by the Apostle Paul 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The first occurrence of this non imputation was in Christ's Eternal Suretyship in the Everlasting Covenant , where He pledged to shed His Blood for their law violations !

This was an Eternal Pledge with the Father, by which He did transfer the trespasses of His Own Elect from them to His Son, and Hence the Father did reckon the sins of His Chosen upon His Son from Eternity, and by this Eternal act, their sins against His Law were Eternally discharged against them, but not from their Surety. They the Elect Sons of God were His [ Christ their Surety] delight before the World was Created Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

According to this Suretyship of the blood of the Everlasting Covenant, Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation, yes even foreordained, this being reckoned upon in the Eternal Divine Counsels. The Father was always well pleased with His Son, even before the Cross occurred in time, and so even the OT Church of believers were Justified by it [His Blood] even before it was actually shed in time See Heb 7:22; Isa 53:6; 2 Cor 5:21 ; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9; Rev 13:8; 1 Pet 1:20 ! 9

 

[Messy]

One obeys from the Heart because they were already Justified by the death of Christ. Obedience is the fruit of Justification not the cause. When Christ died in 33 ad everyone one He died for died with Him, they also rose with Him Justified Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

I did not rise with Him justified in 28 or 33 AD. I can't remember ever having seen a text that says that. It didn't happen then. Jesus was not literally slain before the foundation of the earth.

Romans 6
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be [a]done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been [b]freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

First to be born from the dead. The rest comes after Him.

1 Corinthians 15

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

But this is about getting a new body. You get a new spirit when you repent.

Romans 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

So before I got saved I was not His yet and I hadn't gotten a new spirit yet and although I died with Christ 2000 years ago, it wasn't in effect before I got saved. I was the old man.

The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

He could only give me life when I asked Him to come into my life and forgive my sins. Not before that. If it all happened instantly for the elect, the elect would have been born holy with an immortal body.