Would You Trust...

[Brighten04]

Watch and see... befriend them .. get to know what they think.

They can be very charming.

 

[visionary]

 

[tango]

In lght of recent developments in Europe, especially France, I thought I would revisit this thread. Since some states governors in the U.S are denying refugees entrance into their states, what if some are confessing Christians? Should they be allowed to enter?

What difference do the Paris attacks actually make? Does it make sense to regard hundreds of millions of people worldwide with suspicion because of the actions of a handful? Would it make any more sense to observe that the majority of rapists are men and therefore be worried any time you were near a man? Would it make sense to deny entry to professing Christians because of the child abuse cases that have periodically come to light within the church? At what point should we conclude that the tiny minority aren't representative of a huge mass of people just because they share one specific attribute?

 

[pinacled]

Well a strategist might think like this.
How do I make millions leave a country that I wish to possess.?

 

[Brighten04]

What difference do the Paris attacks actually make? Does it make sense to regard hundreds of millions of people worldwide with suspicion because of the actions of a handful? Would it make any more sense to observe that the majority of rapists are men and therefore be worried any time you were near a man? Would it make sense to deny entry to professing Christians because of the child abuse cases that have periodically come to light within the church? At what point should we conclude that the tiny minority aren't representative of a huge mass of people just because they share one specific attribute?

This is why I asked the question. Shouldn't professing Christians who were Muslim be admitted to sanctuary? Shouldn't Syrian Jews be admitted to sanctuary? The conflict I am experiencing is the issue of trust. I hope I can find some grace here, but, how will we know of the good will of those given sanctuary. Honestly, I am struggling in this area.

 

[Brighten04]

Well a strategist might think like this.
How do I make millions leave a country that I wish to possess.?

There is that.

 

[tango]

This is why I asked the question. Shouldn't professing Christians who were Muslim be admitted to sanctuary? Shouldn't Syrian Jews be admitted to sanctuary? The conflict I am experiencing is the issue of trust. I hope I can find some grace here, but, how will we know of the good will of those given sanctuary. Honestly, I am struggling in this area.

Why shouldn't a Muslim be given sanctuary? If all you've ever known about Muslims is from the media showing pictures of young men with brown skin and beards wielding Kalashnikov rifles then you're falling into the trap of the agenda-driven media. If you've worked with real Muslims, lived alongside real Muslims, visited independent stores owned by real Muslims, you've had the chance to see that most of them are just like you or I in that they want to get on with their lives and be left alone. We don't see Westboro Baptist Church and assume all Christians thank God for dead soldiers, so why do we look at the Islamic terrorists presented to us by the media and assume they represent every Muslim out there?

One day when I was out I got back home to find my front door had jammed shut. I hadn't dressed very warmly because I was only going up to church for a few minutes, and church was less than a 5-minute walk away. So there was me, during the day, shut out of my own house and not really dressed for any length of time in the moderately cold weather. My Muslim neighbors worked from home and invited me in for a cup of tea so I didn't have to stand in the cold. At no point did they try to blow me up, cut my head off, or any of the other things widely associated with Muslims in the media.

Did the Good Samaritan know the grace of the man he helped? It's a real challenge because if I'm perfectly honest I'd struggle with the idea of taking a total stranger into my home to give them sanctuary. That said if a Muslim family moved into the house next to me it wouldn't worry me.

 

[Brighten04]

Why shouldn't a Muslim be given sanctuary? If all you've ever known about Muslims is from the media showing pictures of young men with brown skin and beards wielding Kalashnikov rifles then you're falling into the trap of the agenda-driven media. If you've worked with real Muslims, lived alongside real Muslims, visited independent stores owned by real Muslims, you've had the chance to see that most of them are just like you or I in that they want to get on with their lives and be left alone. We don't see Westboro Baptist Church and assume all Christians thank God for dead soldiers, so why do we look at the Islamic terrorists presented to us by the media and assume they represent every Muslim out there?

One day when I was out I got back home to find my front door had jammed shut. I hadn't dressed very warmly because I was only going up to church for a few minutes, and church was less than a 5-minute walk away. So there was me, during the day, shut out of my own house and not really dressed for any length of time in the moderately cold weather. My Muslim neighbors worked from home and invited me in for a cup of tea so I didn't have to stand in the cold. At no point did they try to blow me up, cut my head off, or any of the other things widely associated with Muslims in the media.

Did the Good Samaritan know the grace of the man he helped? It's a real challenge because if I'm perfectly honest I'd struggle with the idea of taking a total stranger into my home to give them sanctuary. That said if a Muslim family moved into the house next to me it wouldn't worry me.

Well, I do not live near any Muslim people , but, I do encounter them frequently. I have a friend who married someone from Saudi Arabia. From my little exposure, I have not been able to let my guard down. I have been in their shops. But, they seem just as suspicious of me as I am of them. I have nursed them, but they made it obvious that they wanted as little to do with us as possible.I want to just treat everyone the same as I want to be treated. But, I am not a glutton for punishment. I am always aware that a smiling face is not necessarily a friendly face. The truth is in the eyes.I am a very analytical person when it comes to people. If a person hurts me, I am less likely to trust that person again. Don't get me wrong, I am a compassionate person. But for me, sometimes I do better loving people from a distance.And that goes for people in general regardless of ideologies. If people act like they WANT to be friendly with me, I respond in kind. But, if a person acts like the do not want to be bothered with me, I give them their space. The Bible says if you want friends, show yourself friendly. But, I think of it like this. If I show myself friendly, and a person assumes that I am weak because I am kind, they are in for a rude awakening. As for Muslim people, I am still on the fence when it comes to them. You say they just want to just get on with their lives and be left alone.Well, I see them differently. It seems like they want to be left alone, but they will not leave others alone. That is why there is so much killing and destruction in Muslim lands. It seems they want to oppress and dominate others, and they are willing to kill to make others submit to them and their god.

 

[tango]

Well, I do not live near any Muslim people , but, I do encounter them frequently. I have a friend who married someone from Saudi Arabia. From my little exposure, I have not been able to let my guard down. I have been in their shops. But, they seem just as suspicious of me as I am of them. I have nursed them, but they made it obvious that they wanted as little to do with us as possible.I want to just treat everyone the same as I want to be treated. But, I am not a glutton for punishment. I am always aware that a smiling face is not necessarily a friendly face. The truth is in the eyes.I am a very analytical person when it comes to people. If a person hurts me, I am less likely to trust that person again. Don't get me wrong, I am a compassionate person. But for me, sometimes I do better loving people from a distance.And that goes for people in general regardless of ideologies. If people act like they WANT to be friendly with me, I respond in kind. But, if a person acts like the do not want to be bothered with me, I give them their space. The Bible says if you want friends, show yourself friendly. But, I think of it like this. If I show myself friendly, and a person assumes that I am weak because I am kind, they are in for a rude awakening. As for Muslim people, I am still on the fence when it comes to them. You say they just want to just get on with their lives and be left alone.Well, I see them differently. It seems like they want to be left alone, but they will not leave others alone. That is why there is so much killing and destruction in Muslim lands. It seems they want to oppress and dominate others, and they are willing to kill to make others submit to them and their god.

I guess you've just encountered different Muslims. Did you encounter them in areas where there were several of them, or where the odd Muslim stood out like a sore thumb? The reason I ask is because in London there were huge numbers of Muslims and in just about every way they were just like other people. They wanted to go to work, do their job, go home, enjoy their free time, practice the faith of their choice, and generally live and let live.

The guy who owned the local hardware store was a Muslim. I used to go to him in preference to the big-box stores. His prices were a little higher but he was more likely to have the things I needed, he knew exactly where everything was (as opposed to many of the staff at the big-box stores who didn't know and didn't care, and sometimes considered "I don't know" to be an acceptable solution to a customer problem), and was one of the friendliest shop owners in that entire strip. My neighbors were Muslims and were always friendly whenever we saw them in the street. I worked with a few Muslims who were as much a part of the team as everyone else, and took part in team activities to the extent they could within their religious requirements, and as far as possible we accommodated their needs. So when one team went out for lunch at a restaurant where dishes were put in the middle and everybody took a bit of everything we specifically avoided the pork dishes so the Muslim didn't need to keep track of which dish had pork in it; another Muslim I worked with was happy to join the team for drinks after work but didn't drink alcohol so stuck to soft drinks.

I don't doubt some Muslims won't leave other people alone. It's just that my experience of Muslims is that they are in the minority. It's much the same as the way some Christians want to impose their viewpoints on everyone else using the force of law if necessary, while most of us interpret "go into the world and preach the gospel" to mean something other than "force people to obey it and impose it on them by whatever means it takes".

I know what you mean about some people who just don't want to be friendly. I've just never found that to apply to Muslims any more than any other group of people. Some are friendly, some are not. In that regard they are still just like any other group of people you could think of.

 

[Brighten04]

From what you have posted, you have a greater experience with Muslims than I have and thus a different perspective than I have.And, I think that is great. I have worked with people of a different religious ideology than mine and a different culture than mine. I get along well with them. I just am not sure I can trust Muslims.

 

[TurtleHare]

I guess you've just encountered different Muslims. Did you encounter them in areas where there were several of them, or where the odd Muslim stood out like a sore thumb? The reason I ask is because in London there were huge numbers of Muslims and in just about every way they were just like other people. They wanted to go to work, do their job, go home, enjoy their free time, practice the faith of their choice, and generally live and let live.

The guy who owned the local hardware store was a Muslim. I used to go to him in preference to the big-box stores. His prices were a little higher but he was more likely to have the things I needed, he knew exactly where everything was (as opposed to many of the staff at the big-box stores who didn't know and didn't care, and sometimes considered "I don't know" to be an acceptable solution to a customer problem), and was one of the friendliest shop owners in that entire strip. My neighbors were Muslims and were always friendly whenever we saw them in the street. I worked with a few Muslims who were as much a part of the team as everyone else, and took part in team activities to the extent they could within their religious requirements, and as far as possible we accommodated their needs. So when one team went out for lunch at a restaurant where dishes were put in the middle and everybody took a bit of everything we specifically avoided the pork dishes so the Muslim didn't need to keep track of which dish had pork in it; another Muslim I worked with was happy to join the team for drinks after work but didn't drink alcohol so stuck to soft drinks.

I don't doubt some Muslims won't leave other people alone. It's just that my experience of Muslims is that they are in the minority. It's much the same as the way some Christians want to impose their viewpoints on everyone else using the force of law if necessary, while most of us interpret "go into the world and preach the gospel" to mean something other than "force people to obey it and impose it on them by whatever means it takes".

I know what you mean about some people who just don't want to be friendly. I've just never found that to apply to Muslims any more than any other group of people. Some are friendly, some are not. In that regard they are still just like any other group of people you could think of.

The ones living in my area keep to themself and prefer to ignore those who aren't like them. Being kind to them does not show a similar return.

 

[Brighten04]

The ones living in my area keep to themself and prefer to ignore those who aren't like them. Being kind to them does not show a similar return.

That is my experience with them as well, but I do not live near any.

 

[psalms 91]

What I see is muslims pouring into the west for some reason rather than going to their own muslim countries, I just find that strange

 

[Brighten04]

What I see is muslims pouring into the west for some reason rather than going to their own muslim countries, I just find that strange

They see people living in peace and safety so they want to bring sudden destruction upon them. The Bible predicts this.

 

[psalms 91]

They see people living in peace and safety so they want to bring sudden destruction upon them. The Bible predicts this.

Exactly! However as witnessed by this thread many do not believe that

 

[tango]

What I see is muslims pouring into the west for some reason rather than going to their own muslim countries, I just find that strange

It is curious that the wealthier predominantly Muslim nations don't seem interested in taking in any refugees from other predominantly Muslim nations.

 

[tango]

They see people living in peace and safety so they want to bring sudden destruction upon them. The Bible predicts this.

The Bible doesn't specifically say that Muslims will bring sudden destruction. It's also a bit silly to claim that people who are fleeing warfare are trying to bring sudden destruction upon anything - I'd say the majority of the refugees are trying to get away from the fighting rather than taking it with them. There may well be a few exceptions lurking among them but that probably holds true for any group we might care to mention. Look at the way the clergy has struggled with child abuse for so long - it's clearly absurd to say that all clergymen are abusers but even in a place that could safely be described as a "good, solid Christian setting" there's still the chance that people are there for the wrong reasons.

 

[Brighten04]

The Bible doesn't specifically say that Muslims will bring sudden destruction. It's also a bit silly to claim that people who are fleeing warfare are trying to bring sudden destruction upon anything - I'd say the majority of the refugees are trying to get away from the fighting rather than taking it with them. There may well be a few exceptions lurking among them but that probably holds true for any group we might care to mention. Look at the way the clergy has struggled with child abuse for so long - it's clearly absurd to say that all clergymen are abusers but even in a place that could safely be described as a "good, solid Christian setting" there's still the chance that people are there for the wrong reasons.

You like calling people silly and their thoughts absurd don't you? I noticed you do it often. All you have to do is look at the destruction and oppression in Muslim lands to know the truth of what I said. People take themselves with them wherever they go. They take their ideologies wherever they go. If people believe that they should kill the infidel, then they take that ideology with them wherever they go. If they believe they should be at peace with you until they are strong enough to chop your head off, then that ideology goes with them wherever they go. Just because they are not acting out does not mean they are not thinking it in their head. The Bible does not say specifically Muslims bring destruction, but we have seen in recent years that it tends to follow where they are. Expect those who you are so ardently defending to show you a different side soon.They are threatening the entire Western world, and the Western way of life. But I pray our Father protects London.

 

[tango]

You like calling people silly and their thoughts absurd don't you? I noticed you do it often. All you have to do is look at the destruction and oppression in Muslim lands to know the truth of what I said. People take themselves with them wherever they go. They take their ideologies wherever they go. If people believe that they should kill the infidel, then they take that ideology with them wherever they go. If they believe they should be at peace with you until they are strong enough to chop your head off, then that ideology goes with them wherever they go. Just because they are not acting out does not mean they are not thinking it in their head. The Bible does not say specifically Muslims bring destruction, but we have seen in recent years that it tends to follow where they are. Expect those who you are so ardently defending to show you a different side soon.They are threatening the entire Western world, and the Western way of life. But I pray our Father protects London.

I don't call people silly, I call ideas silly. There is a big difference. Do you disagree with my assertion that it's absurd to say all clergymen are abusers, or with my assertion that it's silly to claim that everyone fleeing warfare wants to destroy any country that will let them over the border?

I don't doubt there's destruction and oppression in Muslim lands. That doesn't mean that all Muslims are into destruction and oppression. We could look at some abominations performed by ministers within the Christian church and atrocities carried out allegedly in the name of Jesus Christ and pronounce Christians to be destructive and oppressive.

If people believe they should kill the infidel then of course they will still believe that wherever they go. But how many Muslims actually believe they should kill the infidel? Even if it does say that in the Qu'ran it doesn't mean all Muslims believe it applies to today, just as most Christians don't believe we should execute homosexuals despite the clear instructions of Lev 20:13.

If a particular Muslim believes I should be beheaded then perhaps they will wait until it's a good time to do it. But frankly a middle aged woman wearing a headscarf is unlikely ever to be strong enough to cut my head off.

Some years ago I heard a guy who was a Christian but very well versed in the Qu'ran speak. This guy was qualified to be an imam, that's how well he knew the Qu'ran. He talked of how Muslims tend to focus on one or the other half of the life of Mohammed - I forget the details but it relates to trips to Medina and Mecca, and for a time he preached peace and for the other time he preached war. Perhaps that's one of the key differences between Shia and Sunni Muslims, although it's a while since I heard him and I forget the details. Anyway the bottom line was that some Muslims want to follow the religion of peace while others want to propagate their faith by the sword. The latter group are dangerous, the former are not.

How soon should I expect the peaceful Muslims to show me a different side? I lived and worked alongside Muslims for many years, I'm curious how many more years it will be before they all turn vicious. I suspect a lot of the "threat" to our way of life comes from the people who are desperate to avoid offense when the people they allegedly want to protect probably wouldn't take offense anyway. It reminds me of a black guy I worked with years ago who was heartily sick of all the assorted "inclusive" programs because all they did was highlight differences between races. The Muslims I've known and worked with haven't had an issue with people drinking alcohol, even drinking alcohol around them, they just choose not to. They didn't have an issue with people eating pork, they just chose not to eat it themselves. In that regard they were little different from my Jewish friend who would happily eat in a restaurant with me, although he would choose a kosher dish while I chose whatever I wanted, kosher or not.

 

[Brighten04]

Well I think it is silly and absurd to think scooping fire into one's bosom will not cause severe burns. And I wish you many blessings for being a good trusting friend to your muslim friends and colleagues . May you be rewarded richly for your trust.