Jesus died for the sins of the world

[prism]

@prism


No. One position is that Christ did NOT die for all and the other is that Christ DID die for all. The difference isn't "just semantics" the difference is real. It's not "just semantics."


Here are just some of the Scriptures that verbatim, flat-out, literally STATE that Jesus died for all. for everyone, for the whole world:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are several more.


Here are the Scriptures that state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for ______________."


Crickets.






Except that's wrong. That contradicts Scripture, a Church Council, and 2000 years of Christian faith.


And IF Scripture is wrong (so often) and never gets it right.... if Jesus died ONLY for some unknown some... then no one can be told that God loves them, no one can be presented with the Gospel (unless we make it clear this probably doesn't apply to them)... no one can be told that forgiveness is available for them. And of course, no one can know if the Cross is FOR THEM (odds are, it's not). We KNOW that Christ died for us (for you, for me) for only one reason: The Bible states (so often, so boldly) that Jesus died for all people, I'm a people (LOL) so therefore..... Friend, there is no list in Scripture of the lucky few for whom Jesus died.

There's a very fundamental reason why Scripture makes this point so often, so clearly, so boldly. Why Christianity has stressed it for so long. Why the Council declared it as de fide dogma. Without it, there is no certainly that the Gospel, the Cross is for ME (indeed, if Limited Atonement is true, it's very likely NOT for me). And if Limited Atonement is true (and the BIble wrong), then why didn't Jesus repeatedly say "I'm probably NOT your Savior, I did NOT come for most people, God ONLY loves some unknown few?" His whole ministry would be dishonest, at best.

Friend, for 2000 years, Christianity has affirmed that personal justification hinges on TWO things - both essential - the Cross (the atoning work of Jesus) AND faith that apprehends/applies that. It affirms that the Cross is universal but faith is not.




.

Josiah, don't forget I was Lutheran at one time and had used those same arguments and Scripture at one time.

I was hoping you would have addressed this part of my post, “Since there is an elect , outside of which none are saved, it might as well be said Christ died for His elect...not 'all'.
You do believe in an ‘elect’ don't you? (I did as a Lutheran).

 

[Lamb]

Who has faith in salvation? Better, faith in Jesus and Him crucified.

Well faith grasps onto the Savior and the forgiveness of sin.

 

[brightfame52]

Who has faith in salvation? Better, faith in Jesus and Him crucified.

The regenerate.

 

[Josiah]

You do believe in an ‘elect’ don't you? (I did as a Lutheran).

Of course, I do. But this thread is not about who has faith, it's about for whom Christ died.

See post 1153



.

 

[Messy]

@prism


No. One position is that Christ did NOT die for all and the other is that Christ DID die for all. The difference isn't "just semantics" the difference is real. It's not "just semantics."


Here are just some of the Scriptures that verbatim, flat-out, literally STATE that Jesus died for all. for everyone, for the whole world:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are several more.


Here are the Scriptures that state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for ______________."


Crickets.






Except that's wrong. That contradicts Scripture, a Church Council, and 2000 years of Christian faith.


And IF Scripture is wrong (so often) and never gets it right.... if Jesus died ONLY for some unknown some... then no one can be told that God loves them, no one can be presented with the Gospel (unless we make it clear this probably doesn't apply to them)... no one can be told that forgiveness is available for them. And of course, no one can know if the Cross is FOR THEM (odds are, it's not). We KNOW that Christ died for us (for you, for me) for only one reason: The Bible states (so often, so boldly) that Jesus died for all people, I'm a people (LOL) so therefore..... Friend, there is no list in Scripture of the lucky few for whom Jesus died.

There's a very fundamental reason why Scripture makes this point so often, so clearly, so boldly. Why Christianity has stressed it for so long. Why the Council declared it as de fide dogma. Without it, there is no certainly that the Gospel, the Cross is for ME (indeed, if Limited Atonement is true, it's very likely NOT for me). And if Limited Atonement is true (and the BIble wrong), then why didn't Jesus repeatedly say "I'm probably NOT your Savior, I did NOT come for most people, God ONLY loves some unknown few?" His whole ministry would be dishonest, at best.

Friend, for 2000 years, Christianity has affirmed that personal justification hinges on TWO things - both essential - the Cross (the atoning work of Jesus) AND faith that apprehends/applies that. It affirms that the Cross is universal but faith is not.




.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her

I think it's both true. He died for everyone, but He knows everything. He knew who would not reject Him before creation. Calvin made it sound like God picks some ppl random. I like you and I don't like you and I only die for you. There are ppl who go to church every sunday and follow Him and still worry that they're not elected. That's some evil teaching. But I see it more like He knew that there would be false teachers, who would reject Him and He has prepared darkness for them, because He knows what is in man. Suppose noone would want Him. Then I don't think He would have died. He died cause He knew there would be ppl who would not reject Him, His bride and in theory someone like Judas could have not rejected Him, so He died for him, but on the other hand not really. Sure He wants everyone saved (1 Timothy pray for all man, another text: do not pray for those who sin unto death) and He made it possible for everyone to get saved, but there's also the text for those who reject Him:
John 6
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more.

How Dutch reformed deal with it: When you go into the door of heaven you see a sign inside with: elected, chosen.

If Judas had died in the whomb, he'd have gone to heaven and Jesus would have died for him. That's always so weird.

 

[Albion]

If Judas had died in the whomb, he'd have gone to heaven and Jesus would have died for him. That's always so weird.

This isn't weird at all.

If Judas had died in the womb, he wouldn't have gone to heaven as you said he would have.

That's because NO ONE went to heaven prior to Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. That sacrifice was what made possible all the righteous people from Old Testament times to then go on to heaven as well his sacrifice making salvation possible for us who come later.

But would Jesus' sacrifice then have made possible Judas' salvation along with Moses, Abraham, and other such people? Well, no, because Judas denied Christ, did not believe in and trust Jesus or seek forgiveness from him. That's despite Judas regretting his action in betraying Jesus to the authorities. This is the best we can judge about it, given that the Bible doesn't comment on anything more concerning Judas' status.

 

[Messy]

This isn't weird at all.

If Judas had died in the womb, he wouldn't have gone to heaven as you said he would have.

That's because NO ONE went to heaven prior to Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. That sacrifice was what made possible all the righteous people from Old Testament times to then go on to heaven as well his sacrifice making salvation possible for us who come later.

But would Jesus' sacrifice then have made possible Judas' salvation along with Moses, Abraham, and other such people? Well, no, because Judas denied Christ, did not believe in and trust Jesus or seek forgiveness from him. That's despite Judas regretting his action in betraying Jesus to the authorities. This is the best we can judge about it, given that the Bible doesn't comment on anything more concerning Judas' status.

Jesus said it would have been better for him if he hadn't been born.

 

[Josiah]

Two things are needed for personal justification: The Cross and faith.

Did Jesus die for Judas? Yes. He died for everyone, the Bible states over and over and over again.
Did Judas have faith? No.
Were the two factors needed for personal justification thus met? No.



.

 

[prism]

Two things are needed for personal justification: The Cross and faith.

Did Jesus die for Judas? Yes. He died for everyone, the Bible states over and over and over again.
Did Judas have faith? No.
Were the two factors needed for personal justification thus met? No.



.

If you hadn’t been predestined to salvation, would you have been justified?

 

[Josiah]

If you hadn’t been predestined to salvation, would you have been justified?

Interesting but irrelevant question. The issue here is this: Did Christ die for all as the Bible so often verbatim states and Christians have believed for 2000 years? Or are these latter-day anti-Calvin folks right who stated Christ died ONLY for some unknown some?

The premise of these radicals is this: The entirety of salvation rests on one and only one fact: Did Christ die for YOU? IF so, you're saved. IF not, then not. The whole premise rests on a heresy, the heresy that faith is irrelevant to personal justification, it matters not. ONLY one thing matters: Whether Christ died for you or not. This is the identical point that later would rip Calvinism apart and lead to the Universalist Church (this happened some 300 years ago), Universalist also saying faith is irrelevant all that matters is whether Christ died for you our not. Same heresy, same false premise. It's just the Universalist realized what all who read the Bible know, the Bible says Christ died for all. But both are wrong: faith is not irrelevant, faith is essential. YES, the Bible (and Christianity) is right: Jesus died for all. And YES, the Bible (and Christianity) is right: Faith is also essential. YES, it is true that not all are saved but is this because the Bible is wrong about Jesus dying for all? OR is it because the Bible is right that not all have faith? The reality that not all are saved does not prove Jesus died for only some unknown few.... it means not all have faith that apprehends/relies/applies that death for them.




.

 

[prism]

Interesting but irrelevant question. The issue here is this: Did Christ die for all as the Bible so often verbatim states and Christians have believed for 2000 years? Or are these latter-day anti-Calvin folks right who stated Christ died ONLY for some unknown some?

The premise of these radicals is this: The entirety of salvation rests on one and only one fact: Did Christ die for YOU? IF so, you're saved. IF not, then not. The whole premise rests on a heresy, the heresy that faith is irrelevant to personal justification, it matters not. ONLY one thing matters: Whether Christ died for you or not. This is the identical point that later would rip Calvinism apart and lead to the Universalist Church (this happened some 300 years ago), Universalist also saying faith is irrelevant all that matters is whether Christ died for you our not. Same heresy, same false premise. It's just the Universalist realized what all who read the Bible know, the Bible says Christ died for all. But both are wrong: faith is not irrelevant, faith is essential. YES, the Bible (and Christianity) is right: Jesus died for all. And YES, the Bible (and Christianity) is right: Faith is also essential. YES, it is true that not all are saved but is this because the Bible is wrong about Jesus dying for all? OR is it because the Bible is right that not all have faith? The reality that not all are saved does not prove Jesus died for only some unknown few.... it means not all have faith that apprehends/relies/applies that death for them.




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I’ve never said faith is irrelevant but only God supplies the faith needed to be justified.
Let me pose the question differently, so predestination is tied in with the issue of ‘who Christ died for?’

”Who are the ones predestined unto salvation that Christ did not die for “?
and conversely,
”Who are the ones that Christ did die for but were not predestined unto salvation “?
Are either of these possible?

 

[Josiah]

I’ve never said faith is irrelevant but only God supplies the faith needed to be justified.

1. The apologetic for Limited Atonement is that faith is irrelevant.

2. I agree that faith is essential for justification. Therefore, we can say that Jesus died for all (including Judas) but not that THEREFORE Judas was personally justified.

Let me pose the question differently, so predestination is tied in with the issue of ‘who Christ died for?’i

Predestination means that some are "destined" to have faith. Predestination was never tied to the Cross until some radical, extreme, anti-Calvin theologians came up with that in the late 16th Century since they argued that faith is irrelevant to the issue.

”Who are the ones that Christ did die for but were not predestined unto salvation “?

The Bible states that Christ died for all.
The Bible does not state that all are given faith.


Blessings!


- Josiah



.

 

[prism]

1. The apologetic for Limited Atonement is that faith is irrelevant.

2. I agree that faith is essential for justification. Therefore, we can say that Jesus died for all (including Judas) but not that THEREFORE Judas was personally justified.




Predestination means that some are "destined" to have faith. Predestination was never tied to the Cross until some radical, extreme, anti-Calvin theologians came up with that in the late 16th Century since they argued that faith is irrelevant to the issue.




The Bible states that Christ died for all.
The Bible does not state that all are given faith.


Blessings!


- Josiah



.

I guess my point is you can't separate 'ones who are predestinated' from "Christ died for some'.
You can say 'Scripture never says Christ died for some' all you want, but unless 'predestinate' takes on a different meaning from what is commonly taught, the two concepts work out with the same result.

 

[Josiah]

I guess my point is you can't separate 'ones who are predestinated' from "Christ died for some'.
You can say 'Scripture never says Christ died for some' all you want, but unless 'predestinate' takes on a different meaning from what is commonly taught, the two concepts work out with the same result.

Predestination applies to those given faith. It has never been applied to those for whom Christ died (except by a few anti-Calvin folks who eliminated faith from justification). IF predestination applied to those for whom Christ died, then Scripture is repeatedly wrong when it flat-out, verbatim, specifically states that Jesus died for all (unless you want to insist that ALL are predestined - but that would be contrary to Scripture).

The whole apologetic for the 17th Century invention of "Jesus died ONLY for some unknown few" is a question: "If Jesus died for all then why aren't all saved?" They answer their own question by insisting that Jesus did NOT die for all (as the Bible repeatedly, flat-out, verbatim states). But their whole position depends on faith being irrelevant, unnecessary, moot. Faith is NOT irrelevant, it is essential! The reason some are not saved is NOT because the Bible is wrong in teaching that Jesus died for all, it's because THEY are wrong in insisting that faith is irrelevent. The Bible holds that not all have faith, and since that's essential, that being missing is why they are not saved.


.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus died for the sins of His People, that world Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

 

[brightfame52]

prism

I’ve never said faith is irrelevant but only God supplies the faith needed to be justified.

Actually God provides the Faith to the already Justified, for it is written :

Rom 1:17

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus died for the sins of His People, that world Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

@brightfame52


1. This does not state, "Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some unknown few."

2. To "save from their sins" requires TWO things: The Cross and faith. To insist (as those wacko anti-John Calvin theologians 500 years ago) that salvation depends SOLELY, ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY on whether Christ died for you or not is to embrace a heresy: the heresy that faith is irrelevant, moot, unnecessary.

3. This verse states that salvation comes to those who call on the name of Jesus. That's faith. It's stating faith is essential. And of course, if they call on the Name of Jesus, they believe that Christ died for THEM. There's no way to know that's true unless the Bible is correct, that He died for all (and thus for me).

4. The Bible states (repeatedly, flat-out, verbatim) that Christ died for ALL. But it also indicates that faith is not given to all. Thus the variable is not the Cross but faith.



.

 

[Albion]

prism



Actually God provides the Faith to the already Justified, for it is written :

Rom 1:17

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

There is nothing in that verse which indicates that the faith is reserved for only an Elect. What it says is that those who do come to faith will live.

Then, too, we have already been shown dozens of verses thar verify the belief that Christ died for all mankind, not just a select, predetermined, group!

What's more, we should all understand that trying to prove a point by "cherry picking" Scripture is an invalid method of research.

 

[brightfame52]

There is nothing in that verse which indicates that the faith is reserved for only an Elect. What it says is that those who do come to faith will live.

Then, too, we have already been shown dozens of verses thar verify the belief that Christ died for all mankind, not just a select, predetermined, group!

What's more, we should all understand that trying to prove a point by "cherry picking" Scripture is an invalid method of research.

Again Faith is provided for the elect, its called the Faith of Gods elect Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Everyone Christ died for will be given Faith, that's how its known for whom Christ died, they will be given Faith. Now if a person never comes to Faith, unfortunate for them, they were not elect, nor did Christ die for them.

 

[Josiah]

Again Faith is provided for the elect, its called the Faith of Gods elect Titus 1:1

@brightfame52 That doesn't prove that Jesus did NOT die for all (as the Bible repeatedly, verbatim states) but ONLY for an unknown few.

Everyone Christ died for will be given Faith

Quote the verse that states that.

, that's how its known for whom Christ died

THIS is how we know for whom Christ died: the Bible states He died for all.



Here are just some of the Scriptures that verbatim, flat-out, literally STATE that Jesus died for all. for everyone, for the whole world:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are several more.


Here are the Scriptures that state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for ______________."


Crickets.


Here are the Scriptures that state, "God gives faith to all for whom Jesus died."


Crickets.


.