Jesus died for the sins of the world

Andrew

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I recently got SXM radio and was listening to Family Talk (a Christian station). I used to understand Calvanism as sound theology but never considered myself one, but this host had me thinking. He mentioned Calvinist and refuted the claim that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.
Jesus in fact died for everyone's sin HOWEVER any individual can choose to reject His atonement if they wish and in doing so remain condemned to die the second death.
God wills that all be saved.
How then can we harmonize free will with the will of God?
I don't believe works save, I believe works are evidence of faith and that these works are charity (God being the sole witness to them).
Fruits of the Spirit or gifts of the Spirit have nothing to do with works, they are God given attributes for his elected servants.
Thoughts?
 

Josiah

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Radical Calvinism's historic repudiation of Jesus dying for all is perhaps the most horrible and unbiblical of all teachings....

I rejoice that you (and every Calvinist known to me; my wife's family are all Reformed) reject this dogma.

Yes, Jesus died for all. No, not all benefit from that because not all have faith and thus do not apprehend those blessings. If the radical followers of Calvin (who invented this) are correct (and the Bible wrong) then no one can know if Jesus is THEIR Savior or that their faith is apprehending something that is for them; we'll all have to live in terror, with no reason to believe we are forgiven, saved, heaven-bound... because Jesus only died for SOME and there's no list of who is included in that SOME. While the doctrine of election has merit, historically this has been applied to the gift of faith, not the Cross... orthodox Christianity has noted that it's faith that is variant, not Jesus... some aren't saved NOT because Jesus was lacking but faith is lacking.


Blessings on your Lenten season....


Josiah




,
 
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hedrick

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Radical Calvinism's historic repudiation of Jesus dying for all is perhaps the most horrible and unbiblical of all teachings....

I rejoice that you (and every Calvinist known to me; my wife's family are all Reformed) reject this dogma.

Yes, Jesus died for all. No, not all benefit from that because not all have faith and thus do not apprehend those blessings. If the radical followers of Calvin (who invented this) are correct (and the Bible wrong) then no one can know if Jesus is THEIR Savior or that their faith is apprehending something that is for them; we'll all have to live in terror, with no reason to believe we are forgiven, saved, heaven-bound... because Jesus only died for SOME and there's no list of who is included in that SOME. While the doctrine of election has merit, historically this has been applied to the gift of faith, not the Cross... orthodox Christianity has noted that it's faith that is variant, not Jesus... some aren't saved NOT because Jesus was lacking but faith is lacking.

While I agree with you, the classical argument is that this makes Jesus' act of questionable use. If he died for people who aren't actually saved, then knowing he died for you doesn't mean much. Neither approach is without its problems. There's no real assurance of salvation without universalism. The other attempts all run into serious problems.
 

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[Matthew 20:28 NASB95] 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
[Mark 10:45 NASB95] 45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

[John 10:11, 15 NASB95] 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ... 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

[John 10:25-29 NASB95] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

[Mat 25:32-33 NASB95] 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
 

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I recently got SXM radio and was listening to Family Talk (a Christian station). I used to understand Calvanism as sound theology but never considered myself one, but this host had me thinking. He mentioned Calvinist and refuted the claim that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.
Jesus in fact died for everyone's sin HOWEVER any individual can choose to reject His atonement if they wish and in doing so remain condemned to die the second death.
God wills that all be saved.
How then can we harmonize free will with the will of God?
I don't believe works save, I believe works are evidence of faith and that these works are charity (God being the sole witness to them).
Fruits of the Spirit or gifts of the Spirit have nothing to do with works, they are God given attributes for his elected servants.
Thoughts?

The will is not free where salvation is concerned because man is spiritually dead until God gives him new life.

Man's will is bound to sin because of the fall of Adam. We are already condemned and there we stay until by grace through faith we believe that our sins are forgiven. This doesn't come from within us but all God's doing. Why some and why not others is NOT told in scripture which is why we can safely say that God saves and man is condemned to hell because of his rejection of the Gospel.

We can't go out and spread the Gospel if it weren't objectively already true...that Jesus died for all. God wants us to go out and spread the good news so we CAN safely say that He died for YOU!
 

Andrew

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[Matthew 20:28 NASB95] 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
[Mark 10:45 NASB95] 45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

[John 10:11, 15 NASB95] 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ... 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

[John 10:25-29 NASB95] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

[Mat 25:32-33 NASB95] 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Yes, the rejectors will be divided from the believers AND Jesus knew their thoughts (those he called goats) so He had that ability (being the Spirit of prophecy), HOWEVER when Jesus was on the cross he said "Father forgive them for they don't know what they are doing" speaking for all those who had their hands in the crucifixion, keep in mind that He was at the time abandoned by Judas and Peter and at the darkest hour believed that even GOD had rejected Him. Abandoning and rejection are practically the same in this case for Jesus knows that the Father exists (so He didn't doubt that) but He DID feel hopelessly abandoned and rejected by God at his weakest.
Could you even imagine that feeling? That feeling was the lowest to the point of doubting His own Father, as if spiritually crushed due to the weight of universal Sin.
"Dying for many" was simply realistic and for a the Spirit of Prophecy it was known that not everyone will enter through the narrow gate.
You can call it whatever you want, but I don't believe Christ died for a small amount of sins, he took on the sins of the world upon his shoulders... You say not a drop of blood was wasted, I agree, nor was there any sin spared that Jesus could not atone for -save the one unforgivable sin which is exactly what the "goats" were commiting.
Furthermore, as the repented thief received the promise of everlasting life on his death bed (so to speak), I assume many lifelong unbelievers have a conscious act of repentance upon the hour of death or even at the tiniest fraction of a second unto death.

All Sin is overcome and forgiven along with exemption from death unto Eternal Life for ALL THE WORLD however ANYONE can voluntarily refuse this forgiveness along with the promise of eternal life by rejecting Christ as their willing substitute so to remain condemned. The Elect are known to God, those of the 2nd resurrection are not all destined to Hell, those who are written in the book of life and are found righteous in their meekness before God, although ignorant of the Gospel of Salvation, shall be granted Mercy from God who is merciful, they shall inherit the earth, all others of the 2nd resurrection not found in the book of life will face the second death, these include those who have willfully rejected Christ as their savior and those who have earned their own rewards in life through the workings of iniquity (regardless of receiving the message or not), the false prophets, the breakers of the unforgivable sins, all workers of iniquity.
 

Andrew

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The will is not free where salvation is concerned because man is spiritually dead until God gives him new life.

Man's will is bound to sin because of the fall of Adam. We are already condemned and there we stay until by grace through faith we believe that our sins are forgiven. This doesn't come from within us but all God's doing. Why some and why not others is NOT told in scripture which is why we can safely say that God saves and man is condemned to hell because of his rejection of the Gospel.

We can't go out and spread the Gospel if it weren't objectively already true...that Jesus died for all. God wants us to go out and spread the good news so we CAN safely say that He died for YOU!
I agree that Faith is God given, man cannot design faith or create faith or track down and discover faith, faith comes only from God. God offers Salvation for all but I don't believe that God offers rejection of Salvation in his other hand.. He allows for rejection but not without a message/warning, just as Adam was told not to eat of the tree in the midst lest he died, he never told him it was impossible to do it or that he couldn't do it even if he wanted to, what would even be the point of mentioning it?

It's the same with the good fruit, God offers it to man but man can refuse it (preferring always the fruit of the serpent, staying condemned to it's wages), when the offering is taken then likewise it was given and once you have tasted the good fruit it is impossible to undo, if it were possible then re crucifying Jesus would be possible being his work on the Cross would have been of no effect.
Backsliders are not taken away their forgiveness, im actually not sure what happens to someone who abandons the faith .. any ideas?
 
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JRT

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I have been a Christian for 77 years and after all that time I have concluded that Jesus was executed because he was regarded by as a rebel by the Romans and as a threat to Jewish orthodoxy by the High Priesthood. What followed in the ensuing decades and centuries is interpretation.
 

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While I agree with you, the classical argument is that this makes Jesus' act of questionable use.


Love is always like that. Sometimes, it is not appreciated, not returned, not even effectual. Love isn't extended so that our will will be done, it's extended because the lover loves. If I love both of my sons with all my heart and will great sacrifice, that does not guarentee well anything. Maybe one accepts it, maybe one rejects it - but the fault was not with love. That love has meaning and worth and beauty, even if not always resulting what that love desired.


Yes, of course, the death of Jesus on the Cross does not result in all being saved. But this is not because the Cross is inadequate or limited, it is because faith is limited. The teaching of Election has value, but orthodox biblical Christianity has always placed the subject of that on FAITH, not JESUS. The point is not that Jesus will do it right sometimes, but that sometimes there will be faith that responds and receives. Some do not have salvation, but this is not because the Cross is lacking but because faith is lacking.




.



 

Andrew

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I have been a Christian for 77 years and after all that time I have concluded that Jesus was executed because he was regarded by as a rebel by the Romans and as a threat to Jewish orthodoxy by the High Priesthood. What followed in the ensuing decades and centuries is interpretation.

So you are basically expressing disdain for all of the theological advances and/or drawbacks that have ensued over millennia as if this is normal Christian behavior and tradition.
It kind of is tho, even the disciples argued over who was the greatest, not saying it's a good thing, it's actually counterproductive to carry on in meaningless debates especially when it starts to become unfruitful
 

Andrew

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Love is always like that. Sometimes, it is not appreciated, not returned, not even effectual. Love isn't extended so that our will will be done, it's extended because the lover loves. If I love both of my sons with all my heart and will great sacrifice, that does not guarentee well anything. Maybe one accepts it, maybe one rejects it - but the fault was not with love. That love has meaning and worth and beauty, even if not always resulting what that love desired.


Yes, of course, the death of Jesus on the Cross does not result in all being saved. But this is not because the Cross is inadequate or limited, it is because faith is limited. The teaching of Election has value, but orthodox biblical Christianity has always placed the subject of that on FAITH, not JESUS. The point is not that Jesus will do it right sometimes, but that sometimes there will be faith that responds and receives. Some do not have salvation, but this is not because the Cross is lacking but because faith is lacking.




.
Like when someone offers you something, at first you look at it to see if what they are offering is something to be desired, and if you decide you want to receive it then it's given to you, but without it ever being offered you would never see nor seek for it... that's how I view what some theologians call "Regeneration", that offering is in the Word of God and Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, it's offered to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear but many people neither wish to see or hear just as a stubborn goat pulls back and tugs away from the masters grip and runs off even leading astray a few sheep that follow ending up lost, likewise those reject the good shepherd often lead Gods chosen into the wilderness until He reaches them.
 

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So you are basically expressing disdain for all of the theological advances and/or drawbacks that have ensued over millennia as if this is normal Christian behavior and tradition.
It kind of is tho, even the disciples argued over who was the greatest, not saying it's a good thing, it's actually counterproductive to carry on in meaningless debates especially when it starts to become unfruitful

I am expressing disagreement not distain. Christian theology has developed over millennia and has not necessarily been "truth upon truth" but as often as not has been "guess upon guess". I consider it the duty of a Christian to examine his/her beliefs in the light of both logic and new information. This can be a painful journey. And not all of these debates are unfruitful --- at least not for me.
 

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I have been a Christian for 77 years and after all that time I have concluded that Jesus was executed because he was regarded by as a rebel by the Romans and as a threat to Jewish orthodoxy by the High Priesthood. What followed in the ensuing decades and centuries is interpretation.

Do you believe that Jesus had to die? I mean, that's what Christians believe, that He died for our sins, not just merely an execution by a group.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Do you believe that Jesus had to die? I mean, that's what Christians believe, that He died for our sins, not just merely an execution by a group.
The problem is that the phrase "for our sins" doesn't really clarify much because the adverb "for" could refer to various different things.
 

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The problem is that the phrase "for our sins" doesn't really clarify much because the adverb "for" could refer to various different things.
"Our sins" as in yours and mine and John Q. Public's, all the sins of the world (save the unforgivable sin)
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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"Our sins" as in yours and mine and John Q. Public's, all the sins of the world (save the unforgivable sin)
What does dying for our sins mean? The emphasis is on the adverb preposition "for".
 
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atpollard

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"Our sins" as in yours and mine and John Q. Public's, all the sins of the world (save the unforgivable sin)
What is the “unforgivable sin” according to scripture?
  1. Unbelief
  2. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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😩

Preposition. Excuse me. In my mind, I was replacing it with the prepositional phrase "because of", which constitutes an adverbial phrase of purpose.

 
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Andrew

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What does dying for our sins mean? The emphasis is on the adverb "for".
Dying with the sole purpose of cancelling the wages of sin in which we were indebted to unto death?
 
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