Jesus died for the sins of the world

[Albion]

Again Faith is provided for the elect, its called the Faith of Gods elect Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Everyone Christ died for will be given Faith, that's how its known for whom Christ died, they will be given Faith. Now if a person never comes to Faith, unfortunate for them, they were not elect, nor did Christ die for them.

The reference to an "elect" appears in various places in Scripture, but the problem for us is to understand what the term is referring to. Yes, there's an Elect, but who is being referred to?

The idea that it's some select, predetermined, cadre of people whom God has decided will be saved no matter what is a rather recent innovation in the history of Christianity.

 

[brightfame52]

The reference to an "elect" appears in various places in Scripture, but the problem for us is to understand what the term is referring to. Yes, there's an Elect, but who is being referred to?

The idea that it's some select, predetermined, cadre of people whom God has decided will be saved no matter what is a rather recent innovation in the history of Christianity.

Again, the term elect doesnt have to appear at every turn for it to be the elect. The elect are given Faith, thats how the elect become known, by their Faith. Everyone else who never believes, they were not elect, so Christ didnt die for them

 

[Albion]

Again, the term elect doesnt have to appear at every turn for it to be the elect.

That's true, but it isn't what I addressed in my previous post. What I was saying wasn't that every reference to the subject has to include the word elect or else the concept you hold to about there being a predetermined group of people who are already saved isn't valid.

No. What I was saying is that you have determined for yourself what to think the term means, and you could be wrong. As a matter of fact, there is plenty of Scriptural evidence which suggests that you have adopted for yourself a popular but erroneous interpretation.

The following verse is one that explains it well. It's Paul explaining his career as a person who traveled widely in order to bring the Gospel to non-believers--

“For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen (elect), so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.” (2 Timothy 2:10)

Obviously, Paul would not see the matter that way if the people who could be saved had already achieved that status prior to their births and nothing could change it.

 

[brightfame52]

That's true, but it isn't what I addressed in my previous post. What I was saying wasn't that every reference to the subject has to include the word elect or else the concept you hold to about there being a predetermined group of people who are already saved isn't valid.

No. What I was saying is that you have determined for yourself what to think the term means, and you could be wrong. As a matter of fact, there is plenty of Scriptural evidence which suggests that you have adopted for yourself a popular but erroneous interpretation.

The following verse is one that explains it well. It's Paul explaining his career as a person who traveled widely in order to bring the Gospel to non-believers--

“For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen (elect), so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.” (2 Timothy 2:10)

Obviously, Paul would not see the matter that way if the people who could be saved had already achieved that status prior to their births and nothing could change it.

In fact Salvation that is in Christ Jesus is solely for the elect 2 Tim 2:8-10

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This is very specific, Christ rose from the dead after having died for the elect, therefore the Salvation He accomplished is for the elect. The Salvation in Christ Jesus is for the elect.

 

[Albion]

In fact Salvation that is in Christ Jesus is solely for the elect 2 Tim 2:8-10

The verse in question clearly describes it as a possibility, not a certainty. And Paul (the author of that verse) would not have had to travel the Roman world bringing the Gospel of salvation to non-believers if they were already guaranteed to go to heaven.

The words in question are these: they may also obtain the salvation

So you can see that it's not the case that there is a group that is already assured of being saved, no matter what. It's "may," not "will."

 

[brightfame52]

The verse in question clearly describes it as a possibility, not a certainty. And Paul would not have had to travel the Roman world converting people to the Gospel if they were already guaranteed to go to heaven.

The words in question are these: they may also obtain the salvation

So you can see that it's not the case that there is a group that is already assured of being saved, no matter what.

Oh No, the verse specifically says that the Salvation in Christ Jesus is for the elect. There isn't Salvation in Christ Jesus for anyone else friend !

When he says that they may also be saved, he just means elect that have not yet been converted. Some had been, like Paul himself, but there were others to be converted, even among the gentiles.

 

[Albion]

Oh No, the verse specifically says that the Salvation in Christ Jesus is for the elect.

As I've already mentioned, you are thinking of "elect" in a way that isn't correct. It doesn't refer to a special group who are "home free" with God from even before their births, but the word is used instead to refer to a "chosen" kind of human, a preferred kind, i.e. one who loves God, his ways, and his laws, etc.

Those are the people who come to Faith in Christ as Savior and therefore live as he taught. They are his choice of human.

The term doesn't refer to some people who, like robots, were created impervious to sin, etc.

 

[brightfame52]

As I've already mentioned, you are thinking of "elect" in a way that isn't correct. It doesn't refer to a special group who are "home free" with God from even before their births, but the word is used instead to refer to a "chosen" kind of human, a preferred kind, i.e. one who loves God, his ways, and his laws, etc.

Those are the people who come to Faith in Christ as Savior and therefore live as he taught. They are his choice of human.

The term doesn't refer to some people who, like robots, were created impervious to sin, etc.

Of course Im thinking of the elect, cant you read ? 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they[The elect] may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul is preaching Salvation for the elect, something most religions dont do !

 

[Albion]

Of course Im thinking of the elect, cant you read ? 2 Tim 2:10

Yes, I can, and that verse--which you chose as a proof text--teaches something other than what you assumed. But I've explained it already and I doubt that going over it one more time will make any difference to someone who's going to reply "can't you read?" in preference to giving the explanation some thought.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, I can, and that verse--which you chose as a proof text--teaches something other than what you assumed. But I've explained it already and I doubt that going over it one more time will make any difference to someone who's going to reply "can't you read?" in preference to giving the explanation some thought.

Well if you could understand what you read, Paul is saying that The Salvation which is in Christ Jesus is designed for the Elect ! 2 Tim 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul uses the definite article " The Salvation" because its only one Salvation, and consequently its for the Elect.

 

[Josiah]

Oh No, the verse specifically says that the Salvation in Christ Jesus is for the elect. There isn't Salvation in Christ Jesus for anyone else friend !

More diversions.....

The issue here is whether the Bible is correct when it repeatedly and verbatim states that Jesus died for all people OR instead if those Anti-John Calvin guys in the early 17th Century were correct in their new dogma that Jesus did NOT die for all but rather ONLY for some.

The question is not who is personally justified, so please stop trying so hard to hijack the thread and evade the issue.



.

 

[brightfame52]

God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The word ‘world’ does not mean that Christ died for every human being, If this were true, no one would finally be lost. He reconciled the world in the sense that he redeemed a people out of every tribe, kindred and nation not of the Jews only. Not only that, the people of the world Christ died for and reconciled to God, God doesnt charge their sins against them, which certainly cant be said of every individual, for Jesus in that last day shall say to many Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This means their sins were imputed to them !

 

[Lamb]

God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The word ‘world’ does not mean that Christ died for every human being, If this were true, no one would finally be lost. He reconciled the world in the sense that he redeemed a people out of every tribe, kindred and nation not of the Jews only. Not only that, the people of the world Christ died for and reconciled to God, God doesnt charge their sins against them, which certainly cant be said of every individual, for Jesus in that last day shall say to many Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This means their sins were imputed to them !

Rejection of what was won for them is why there are lost, not that God couldn't accomplish the unthinkable, that He died to forgive the sins of the world (not just some).

 

[brightfame52]

Rejection of what was won for them is why there are lost, not that God couldn't accomplish the unthinkable, that He died to forgive the sins of the world (not just some).

None of their sins are imputed to them. So unbelief isnt charged to them. Rejection of Christ isnt charged to them. You are going against the clear teaching of scripture which is God was in Christ not charging people with their sins, you said He does.

 

[Josiah]

None of their sins are imputed to them. So unbelief isnt charged to them. Rejection of Christ isnt charged to them. You are going against the clear teaching of scripture which is God was in Christ not charging people with their sins, you said He does.

The Bible repeatedly and flat-out verbatim states that Jesus died for everyone, and I believe the Bible is not wrong about that.

FAITH apprehends - applies - relies on that and the forgiveness/justification/salvation that His death for us accomplishes. Where there is faith, even the previous unbelief is forgiven. Where faith is absent, where His death for us is denied, rejected, repudiated there is not forgiveness/justification/salvation and the unbelief is not forgiven.

The Cross is universal. Faith, however, is not. BOTH are essential for personal justification.




,

 

[SetFree]

I recently got SXM radio and was listening to Family Talk (a Christian station). I used to understand Calvanism as sound theology but never considered myself one, but this host had me thinking. He mentioned Calvinist and refuted the claim that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.
Jesus in fact died for everyone's sin HOWEVER any individual can choose to reject His atonement if they wish and in doing so remain condemned to die the second death.
God wills that all be saved.
How then can we harmonize free will with the will of God?
I don't believe works save, I believe works are evidence of faith and that these works are charity (God being the sole witness to them).
Fruits of the Spirit or gifts of the Spirit have nothing to do with works, they are God given attributes for his elected servants.
Thoughts?

Why would you think that just because Lord Jesus died on the cross to OFFER His Salvation to everyone born in the flesh, would be about Calvinism?

We know not all will receive His Blood shed upon the cross for their salvation. They will still reject Him even when He returns and they 'see' Him. How then, is that NOT use of free will?

You confuse me. How is rejecting Christ not... an act of using free will? What is free will truly?

God did not create us as robots to love Him. Real love, which He wants from us, is only given by one's own choice. Thus He gave us and the even the angels, free will to either love Him and His Son, or to reject Him and perish. It's that simple.

So what about those like Christ's Apostles and Apostle Paul especially, since Jesus chose them; they didn't choose Jesus? Those were preordained, predestinated for those positions as 'sent ones'. The majority of us were not. This is especially where Calvinism fails, because it claims the Church is only made up of those who have been preordained from the foundation of the world. Now Paul says that to the Church at Ephesus, but in John 17 Lord Jesus showed there is His elect 'sent ones', and then there is another group of His Church that only come to believe by the preaching of His Apostles. The word 'apostle' means 'a sent one', and those are called and chosen. But the other group that believe on Jesus by their preaching, that group represents the 'called' only.

The Difference between Called only and Chosen?

1. the 'sent ones', like Christ's Apostles, can NEVER be deceived. Jesus 'already' owns these, like He showed in John 17. So these are both called and chosen.

2. the second group that only believe on they hear preaching of The Gospel by Christ's sent ones, represent the 'called' only. And these CAN... be deceived, IF they allow it.


John 17:18-21
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
KJV

 

[Josiah]

Why would you think that just because Lord Jesus died on the cross to OFFER His Salvation to everyone born in the flesh, would be about Calvinism?

One of the points of Calvinism's TULIP is the "L" - "Limited Atonement" - the dogma of Calvinism that Jesus did NOT die for everyone (as the Bible so often, verbatim, flat-out states) but rather died for ONLY some (which of course the Bible never says). Thus, @SetFree if you challenge that Jesus died for you, you are taking up and defending the Calvinist view, you are promoting Calvinism.

We know not all will receive His Blood shed upon the cross for their salvation. They will still reject Him even when He returns and they 'see' Him. How then, is that NOT use of free will?

True. While Jesus died for all, not all are given faith. The "variable" thus is not the Cross but faith. Calvinism thus is wrong.

You confuse me. How is rejecting Christ not... an act of using free will? What is free will truly?

NOT having faith is simply the "default" position. No one has faith until they do. No one needs to choose to not have faith, the void is already there (unless you believe that all have faith from conception).

It is faulty (and unbiblical) to hold that the only way a dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God can gain faith is if they create it and give it to themselves. There is another option: God gives it. Which is of course what the Bible says.

God did not create us as robots to love Him.

No. We are born spiritually dead. We don't choose that, it simply is the state in which all humans exist until they have spiritual life.

I don't agree that the way a dead, lifeless, atheistic, fallen, enemy of God gains spiritual life is by creating faith and then giving it to themselves - all without the Holy Spirit. I don't think the Bible supports that, I don't think you can quote Scripture stating that.

Thus He gave us and the even the angels, free will to either love Him and His Son, or to reject Him and perish. It's that simple.

If it's "just that simple" then you will give a series of Scriptures that state that.

 

[Josiah]

@SetFree


This video Bible Study is almost 12 minutes long; I hope that's not beyond your attention span. Perhaps you'll listen to this...

Wolfmueller Can You Make a Decision for Christ video - Google Search

In modern America - where we SO embrace democracy, liberty, freedom and extreme rugged individualism... where it's practically dogma that each forms his own destiny - this whole theology of "free will" and "self saves self" is very popular. Not so much elsewhere but this new theology really appeals to modern Americans. And 21st Century Americans tend to read this into Scripture. But it's foreign to Scripture and taught nowhere there.



Some Scriptures:

Ephesians 2:1
"You were dead in your trespasses and sins..."

1 Corinthians 2:14
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit because they are folly to him and he cannot understand them."

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

John 15:16
"You did not choose me, but I chose you."

Romans 8:29-30
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, and many, many more.




.

 

[SetFree]

@SetFree


This video Bible Study is almost 12 minutes long; I hope that's not beyond your attention span. Perhaps you'll listen to this...

Wolfmueller Can You Make a Decision for Christ video - Google Search

In modern America - where we SO embrace democracy, liberty, freedom and extreme rugged individualism... where it's practically dogma that each forms his own destiny - this whole theology of "free will" and "self saves self" is very popular. Not so much elsewhere but this new theology really appeals to modern Americans. And 21st Century Americans tend to read this into Scripture. But it's foreign to Scripture and taught nowhere there.



Some Scriptures:

....

@SetFree


This video Bible Study is almost 12 minutes long; I hope that's not beyond your attention span. Perhaps you'll listen to this...

Wolfmueller Can You Make a Decision for Christ video - Google Search

In modern America - where we SO embrace democracy, liberty, freedom and extreme rugged individualism... where it's practically dogma that each forms his own destiny - this whole theology of "free will" and "self saves self" is very popular. Not so much elsewhere but this new theology really appeals to modern Americans. And 21st Century Americans tend to read this into Scripture. But it's foreign to Scripture and taught nowhere there.

....

That's the false doctrine of men called CALVINISM, which is NOT dependent upon the idea that Jesus died on the cross for ALL based on the condition of accepting Him.

An idea that He died only for those fated to believe is what Calvinism is about and is ludicrous.

We EACH must make our OWN CHOICE to either believe on The Father through His Son's Blood shed upon the cross, nor not. Only once Lord Jesus returns will you understand how that is, for it's obvious you don't yet understand it.

ONLY... those of Christ's very elect, like His 'chosen' ones, have no choice in this world, for He already owns them, AS HE SAID.

So instead of posting many Scriptures used as cannon fodder, this subject Jesus explained in His prayer in John 17...

John 17:6
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
KJV

John 17:11-14
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
KJV

John 17:16-19
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

In the above John 17 verses, Jesus is pointing ONLY to His elect Apostles (sent ones).


John 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
KJV

But in the above verse, Jesus is pointing to a SECOND GROUP that would belief by His Apostle's preaching of The Gospel. Then it was His wish that both groups become 'one' in Him and The Father.

No need for man's philosophy on that going around in circles. Jesus went straight to the point, He has His elect 'chosen' sent ones that were given to Him by The Father, which originally belonged... to The Father (idea of ordained and predestined), and then the second group that MUST of their OWN FREE WILL come to believe by their preaching of The Gospel (i.e., "through their word").

 

[SetFree]

This is why God's Word shows us cases like Apostle Paul, who was originally a Pharisee and busy hunting down Christians to bring them captive to Jerusalem for trial. Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus and blinded him, and REMOVED Saul's doubt about Him. Jesus said that Paul was His "chosen vessel", which points to Paul as one of His Apostles. That means DIVINE INTERVENTION, taking Paul's choice to believe away.

But Calvinism instead teaches that only those who are 'saved' were ordained to be saved anyway, and thus those who are not saved, were already ordained to perish and have no chance at Christ's Salvation. That doctrine is as backward and superstitious as the pagan doctrines of old! And it is NOT... supported in God's Word.

Anyone... that goes against what Lord Jesus said below will be in terrible trouble with Him when He returns in our near future...

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV