Jesus died for the sins of the world

brightfame52

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What's also fascinating about Jn 10:26 is that the Pharisees, in order for them to believe, they first had be Christ's sheep. But how can they be His sheep without faith? Hmm...must have something to do with God's sovereign election? Just a wild and crazy guess.... o_O
People are Christs Sheep without Faith, however because they are Christs Sheep, and Christ died for them Jn 10:11,15 they will be given Faith to believe in Him. Everyone Christ died for will be sometime or other in their life time, born again and given faith to believe in Christ.

Now if a person never comes to faith, then Christ never died for them because they were never one of His Sheep.
 
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1689Dave

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I see we have an interpretational difference.
To read the passage the way your stated theology teaches would need it to say,
Ye are not my sheep, that is why ye believe not​
instead it says,
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​
John 10:26-28
I see why you read it as you do. And I acknowledge that reading it thus is one possible way to understand its meaning. Yet the passage has the wording that it does and that wording implies that lack of belief is the sign of exclusion from the sheepfold. Just as following Christ is the sign of inclusion in the sheepfold. The question that you're seeking to answer is "why would they not believe?" and your answer appears to be "because they were created as non-sheep". But pay close attention to the way the story is told by saint John:
And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. And many believed on him there.​
John 10:22-42
Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian pastor and a Calvinist, writes:
Into the sheepfold - The sheepfold was an inclosure made in fields where the sheep were collected by night to defend them from robbers, wolves, etc. It was not commonly covered, as the seasons in Judea were mild. By the figure here we are to understand the Jewish people, or the church of God, which is often likened to a flock, Ezek. 34:1-19; Jer_23:1-4; Zec_13:1-9. By the door, here, is meant the Lord Jesus Christ, Joh_10:7, Joh_10:9. He is “the way, the truth, and the life,” Joh_14:6. And, as the only proper way of entering the fold was by the door, so the only way of entering the church of God is by believing on him and obeying his commandments. The particular application of this place, however, is to religious teachers, who cannot enter properly on the duties of teaching and guarding the flock except by the Lord Jesus that is, in the way which he has appointed. The Pharisees claimed to be pastors, but not under his appointment. They entered some other way. The true pastors of the church are those who enter by the influences of the Spirit of Jesus, and in the manner which he has appointed.​
Some other way - Either at a window or over the wall.​
A thief - One who silently and secretly takes away the property of another.​
A robber - One who does it by violence or bloodshed. Jesus here designates those pastors or ministers of religion who are influenced not by love to him, but who seek the office from ambition, or the love of power, or wealth, or ease; who come, not to promote the welfare of the church, but to promote their own interests. Alas! in all churches there have been many - many who for no better ends have sought the pastoral office. To all such Jesus gives the names of thieves and robbers.​
This is much more the intended purpose of the passage, much more what saint Joh intends to teach, than is the idea you've attributed to the words "because ye are not of my sheep".
If you would "rightly divide the word of truth" then pay heed to its intended lessons and resist the desire to prove a doctrine. Many make shipwreck of their faith by proving doctrines.
Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.​
2 Timothy 2:14-18
But the fact he did not die for them is the reason they do not believe.
 

Albion

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But the fact he did not die for them is the reason they do not believe.
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2
 

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But they linger when left unanswered.

Sure it states why all do not have faith...

But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2Thess 2:13

Which begs the question, if He died for all, why didn't He choose all for salvation?
BINGO!!! Well stated! In fact, in John 17 in Jesus' high priestly prayer to this Father, why didn't he pray for ALL those for whom he supposely died!? Very clearly in that passage he prays only for the elect.
 

MoreCoffee

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But the fact he did not die for them is the reason they do not believe.
They didn't believe so they are condemned, as Jesus says.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​
John 3:16-21
 

1689Dave

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They didn't believe so they are condemned, as Jesus says.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​
John 3:16-21
What was the reason they did not believe? It was because Jesus didn't die for them according to Jn 10.
 

Doran

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I see we have an interpretational difference.
To read the passage the way your stated theology teaches would need it to say,
Ye are not my sheep, that is why ye believe not​
instead it says,
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​
John 10:26-28
I see why you read it as you do. And I acknowledge that reading it thus is one possible way to understand its meaning. Yet the passage has the wording that it does and that wording implies that lack of belief is the sign of exclusion from the sheepfold. Just as following Christ is the sign of inclusion in the sheepfold. The question that you're seeking to answer is "why would they not believe?" and your answer appears to be "because they were created as non-sheep". But pay close attention to the way the story is told by saint John:
And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. And many believed on him there.​
John 10:22-42
Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian pastor and a Calvinist, writes:
Into the sheepfold - The sheepfold was an inclosure made in fields where the sheep were collected by night to defend them from robbers, wolves, etc. It was not commonly covered, as the seasons in Judea were mild. By the figure here we are to understand the Jewish people, or the church of God, which is often likened to a flock, Ezek. 34:1-19; Jer_23:1-4; Zec_13:1-9. By the door, here, is meant the Lord Jesus Christ, Joh_10:7, Joh_10:9. He is “the way, the truth, and the life,” Joh_14:6. And, as the only proper way of entering the fold was by the door, so the only way of entering the church of God is by believing on him and obeying his commandments. The particular application of this place, however, is to religious teachers, who cannot enter properly on the duties of teaching and guarding the flock except by the Lord Jesus that is, in the way which he has appointed. The Pharisees claimed to be pastors, but not under his appointment. They entered some other way. The true pastors of the church are those who enter by the influences of the Spirit of Jesus, and in the manner which he has appointed.​
Some other way - Either at a window or over the wall.​
A thief - One who silently and secretly takes away the property of another.​
A robber - One who does it by violence or bloodshed. Jesus here designates those pastors or ministers of religion who are influenced not by love to him, but who seek the office from ambition, or the love of power, or wealth, or ease; who come, not to promote the welfare of the church, but to promote their own interests. Alas! in all churches there have been many - many who for no better ends have sought the pastoral office. To all such Jesus gives the names of thieves and robbers.​
This is much more the intended purpose of the passage, much more what saint Joh intends to teach, than is the idea you've attributed to the words "because ye are not of my sheep".
If you would "rightly divide the word of truth" then pay heed to its intended lessons and resist the desire to prove a doctrine. Many make shipwreck of their faith by proving doctrines.
Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.​
2 Timothy 2:14-18
Jn 10:26-27 is not a complicated passage to understand. Jesus is talking about two kinds of people: His sheep and those who are not. The passage reads:

John 10:26-27
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
NIV

If Jesus wanted to say that the Pharisees were not his sheep because of their unbelief, he would have simply said: "You are not my sheep because you don't believe."

But that isn't what he said! Jesus is actually contrasting those who are not his sheep against those who are. It's really as simple as that. He saying that the Pharisees don't believe because they're not his sheep. Conversely, Jesus' sheep are believers! Why? Because they have listened to Jesus' voice and they follow him.

The Pharisees in v. 24 demanded that Jesus tell them whether or not he was the Messiah.

In v. 25, Jesus said, "I did tell you but you did not believe.

So, since Jesus did tell them, they obviously did not listen whereas his sheep do listen.

In v. 26, Jesus gets to the crux of the problem for their unbelief: "but you do not believe (or listen) BECAUSE you are not my sheep." Because they are not God's elect, they not only don't listen to Jesus (as his sheep do), but because they are spiritually DEAD, they CANNOT listen. In other words, they cannot respond positively to the external gospel message -- to the external call of the gospel. Dead people can't do anything unless God supernaturally acts internally upon them, such as what He did with Peter, as one example (Mat 16:17). Or with Paul as another example (Gal 1:16). Spiritually dead people need to be raised from their spiritual tombs before they can listen and respond positively to the gospel.
 

MoreCoffee

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What was the reason they did not believe? It was because Jesus didn't die for them according to Jn 10.
It's not spelled out, so, it is a mystery. Something that God will spell out in his own good time.
 

Albion

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Jn 10:26-27 is not a complicated passage to understand. Jesus is talking about two kinds of people: His sheep and those who are not. The passage reads:

John 10:26-27
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
NIV

If Jesus wanted to say that the Pharisees were not his sheep because of their unbelief, he would have simply said: "You are not my sheep because you don't believe."
I'm not sure that we understand Scripture by first deciding for Jesus that He could have said "it" better, in a different way, and because he didn't do that, we are free to assign any meaning to the passage that we choose.

But that isn't what he said! Jesus is actually contrasting those who are not his sheep against those who are.

...which proves nothing. We all know that some are his sheep and some are not.

It's really as simple as that. He saying that the Pharisees don't believe because they're not his sheep.

And you feel that you are the one who gets to decide WHY it is that they are not his sheep.

Think that one through again.
 

MoreCoffee

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Jn 10:26-27 is not a complicated passage to understand. Jesus is talking about two kinds of people: His sheep and those who are not. The passage reads:

John 10:26-27
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
NIV

If Jesus wanted to say that the Pharisees were not his sheep because of their unbelief, he would have simply said: "You are not my sheep because you don't believe."

But that isn't what he said! Jesus is actually contrasting those who are not his sheep against those who are. It's really as simple as that. He saying that the Pharisees don't believe because they're not his sheep. Conversely, Jesus' sheep are believers! Why? Because they have listened to Jesus' voice and they follow him.

The Pharisees in v. 24 demanded that Jesus tell them whether or not he was the Messiah.

In v. 25, Jesus said, "I did tell you but you did not believe.

So, since Jesus did tell them, they obviously did not listen whereas his sheep do listen.

In v. 26, Jesus gets to the crux of the problem for their unbelief: "but you do not believe (or listen) BECAUSE you are not my sheep." Because they are not God's elect, they not only don't listen to Jesus (as his sheep do), but because they are spiritually DEAD, they CANNOT listen. In other words, they cannot respond positively to the external gospel message -- to the external call of the gospel. Dead people can't do anything unless God supernaturally acts internally upon them, such as what He did with Peter, as one example (Mat 16:17). Or with Paul as another example (Gal 1:16). Spiritually dead people need to be raised from their spiritual tombs before they can listen and respond positively to the gospel.
The Lord is speaking about himself as the good shepherd; the sheep and sheepfold are incidental to his teaching about himself as the door/gate and the proper entry into the sheepfold. It is a mistake to concentrate too much on sheep and non-sheep when the topic is the shepherd and his role.
 

1689Dave

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It's not spelled out, so, it is a mystery. Something that God will spell out in his own good time.
Really... It's revealed now to many. Here's something to consider.

Hardened Hearts

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.” John 12:37–41 (KJV 1900)

Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” Isaiah 6:10 (KJV 1900)

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” Matthew 13:14 (KJV 1900)

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)

For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.” Mark 6:52 (KJV 1900)

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.” Luke 8:10 (KJV 1900)

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not.” Isaiah 6:9 (KJV 1900)

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” Matthew 13:14 (KJV 1900)

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” Matthew 13:11 (KJV 1900)

But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.” Matthew 19:11 (KJV 1900)

Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:” Acts 28:26 (KJV 1900)
 

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Really... It's revealed now to many. Here's something to consider.

Hardened Hearts

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.” John 12:37–41 (KJV 1900)

Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” Isaiah 6:10 (KJV 1900)

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” Matthew 13:14 (KJV 1900)

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)

For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.” Mark 6:52 (KJV 1900)

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.” Luke 8:10 (KJV 1900)

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not.” Isaiah 6:9 (KJV 1900)

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” Matthew 13:14 (KJV 1900)

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” Matthew 13:11 (KJV 1900)

But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.” Matthew 19:11 (KJV 1900)

Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:” Acts 28:26 (KJV 1900)
I am familiar with the passages, they are read for their lessons in the Catholic Church more than for doctrinal proofs. But I do understand why you say what you do. I do not share your perspective.
 

1689Dave

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I am familiar with the passages, they are read for their lessons in the Catholic Church more than for doctrinal proofs. But I do understand why you say what you do. I do not share your perspective.
Why would Jesus waste his blood on those with no hope of salvation? Those cursed of God?
 

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I assure you that I could not agree with that very limited definition of the term "world". I certainly think Jn 3:16, as one example, is talking about God loving a lot more than trees, sand, dirt, shrubs, etc. I think it's very safe to say that God loves his image bearers, at the very least. Of course, the question remains: All of them or just "many"? :)

No, I'm afraid I cannot agree on that. Here's why in a nutshell: Those universal sounding nouns or phrases, e.g. "world", "whole world", "all men", etc. are actually used in a restrictive (limited) sense -- at least in most cases. Of course context is often the determinant. Take John 3:16, again as one example -- but one that is extremely popular with either 4-point Calvinists or Arminians. The question that must be brought to bear upon such text is this: How would the original, largely Jewish audience have understood John's use of the Gr. term kosmos (Strong's 2889)? Even Strong's definition admits to where the term can be used in a wide (universal) or narrow (restricted) sense. Here's the definition:

kosmos
NT:2889 kosmos (kos'-mos); probably from the base of NT:2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]):

KJV - adorning, world.


So, in which sense would the original audience have understood "kosmos": Broad or narrow? But even distilling down the definitions to these two options can be misleading since something can be "broad-brushed" in a "limited" sense. Is the term "world" to be understood in terms of Rev 5:9; 7:9? Doesn't the first text say from "EVERY tribe and language and people and nation"? That's sounds pretty inclusive, right? BUT at the same time, the passage does not say that Christ purchased ALL men for God. Do you see where I'm going here? There is most definitely a SENSE in which Christ died for "all men" or the "world" in the terms laid out by John in this passage. And this sense is most definitely the "without distinction" sense. But at that same time, since the sense isn't "without exception" then we have to say it's also limited. And this understanding does no violence to the Law of Noncontradiction because the senses aren't the same!

And we find the same paradoxical scheme in Revelation 7. And this is whether we think the 144,000 is included in v.9 or whether we don't. Of course, if it is included, then beyond any question this passage is also to be interpreted in the "without distinction" sense, since the numbers themselves would preclude a "without exception" understanding. But the evidence is still quite compelling for a "without distinction" sense even if we exclude the 144,000 Jews, since John again employs in v.9 the same kind of language he used in chapter 5.

The main reason I use these two Johannine passages is because I wanted to get inside John's head -- inside his Jewish mind when I was studyhing these things out many years ago. John very obviously thinks the way a typical first century Jew would have. To his mindset the "world" consisted of only two kinds of people: Jews and Gentiles! The chosen, covenant people of God and the non-chosen, non-covenant people of God! (Does this sound familiar? It should! The apostle Paul, too, thought in these very Jewish terms. And rightfully so, I might add.) Anyone even remotely familiar with the Abrahamic Covenant would be aware of the number of times the term "nations" is used in Genesis 13, 15, 17, 22, etc. "Nations" would have been understood as referring to the non-covenant nations, i.e. Gentiles. Was Abraham ever promised to be made the father of each and every person in the world, or was he promised that he would be made the father of many nations? The world, then should rightfully and biblically be understood as being comprised of those Gentile nations and God's covenant people the Jews. Jn 3:16: For God so loved the Jews and Gentiles (world) that he gave his only begotten son.

Maybe a god that tells us to go into the world and preach a message to people who can't possibly benefit from it just has a sick sense of humor? You know, the whole "so loved the world" that he sent his son to die for, well, just a selected few, and then told the rest to go and spread the word to people who not only wouldn't respond to it but actually couldn't respond to it. Then he threw those people into the eternal fire for not responding to the message he made them incapable of responding to.

I'm not sure how well that fits in with the concept of a loving God.
Do you have a proof text that says God makes people incapable of believing the gospel? Or could it be that dead people just naturally don't have very much ability to do much of anything?

Also, according to your line of reasoning, Jesus must have been the biggest village idiot to have ever walked the earth since he preached the gospel for 3-1/2 years throughout all Palestine and his reward was that the vast majority of Jews rejected him and had him murdered. So either way -- his ministry was an epic fail according to your standards and the world's. Didn't Jesus know all men's hearts, yet he wasted his time preaching mostly to people who he knew would reject him???
 

MoreCoffee

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Why would Jesus waste his blood on those with no hope of salvation? Those cursed of God?
Because he is Love. And because of Mercy. And because of grace.
 

tango

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Like I said, you wiser than God, more Intelligent than He is.

Maybe I am wiser than the god some people would like to present, even if I'm nowhere near as wise as the real God.
 

tango

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"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2

Yes, but as people have said "the whole world" doesn't actually mean "the whole world". That would be too obvious. It really means some unspecified subset of the whole world. As to whether you and I are part of that mysterious inner circle, who knows? Don't you just love a good guessing game?
 

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Because he is Love. And because of Mercy. And because of grace.
Did you know God hates sinners?

“For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: Neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Psalm 5:4–5 (KJV 1900)
 

MoreCoffee

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Did you know God hates sinners?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

For the whole world before thee is as a little grain of the balance, yea, as a drop of the morning dew that falleth down upon the earth. But thou hast mercy upon all; for thou canst do all things, and winkest at the sins of men, because they should amend. For thou lovest all the things that are, and abhorrest nothing which thou hast made: for never wouldest thou have made any thing, if thou hadst hated it. And how could any thing have endured, if it had not been thy will? or been preserved, if not called by thee? But thou sparest all: for they are thine, O Lord, thou lover of souls.
Wisdom 11:22-26

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1 John 4:7-21

 

1689Dave

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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

For the whole world before thee is as a little grain of the balance, yea, as a drop of the morning dew that falleth down upon the earth. But thou hast mercy upon all; for thou canst do all things, and winkest at the sins of men, because they should amend. For thou lovest all the things that are, and abhorrest nothing which thou hast made: for never wouldest thou have made any thing, if thou hadst hated it. And how could any thing have endured, if it had not been thy will? or been preserved, if not called by thee? But thou sparest all: for they are thine, O Lord, thou lover of souls.
Wisdom 11:22-26

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1 John 4:7-21
But God hates sinners. We were born of Adam as such.

"World": Many definitions but few will fit. Here's an example: "God so loved the world" Jn.3:16 compare with "Love not the world" 1 Jn. 2:15. John defines the world as an organized system of rebellion. So Jn. 3:16 must mean God so loved the organized system of rebellion?

But this contradicts “The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Psalm 5:5 (KJV 1900) where God hates the world. The best option is the future saved world where Christs will have died for everyone. Where they will not perish. Need I say people perish in this world?
 
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