But to your point above: Then the only possible conclusion is that God loves no one. Since God an only love those in accord with His holiness... and since no one is holy.... what other conclusion is possible?
Since all are sinful, then the only possible conclusion is that God loves no one. As you yourself indicate in Romans 3:10-18.
Ephesians 1:4 says no such thing. This passage has to do the Election, it says nothing about God's love or Jesus' death. It certainly does not state that God ONLY loves those who will come to faith.
I see your point. But the doctrine we are discussing is not here. Nowhere are the words "ONLY" "SOLELY" "EXCLUSIVELY" "NOT"
I would insert the Gospel here: Grace and mercy.
St. Paul calls himself the chief of sinners. Scripture states that if we claim to be without sin, we are liars. I think it uses the "L" word there. I personally doesn't know any Christians who are sinless.
Why would Jesus die for the sinless?
The Bible says ALL are sinful, none are righteous, so if Jesus ONLY died for the sinless and righteous, then He died for no one.
1. John uses the word "world" in the negative sense, as in "worldly", fallen, sinful, broken.
2. Sorry, but I fail to see how John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 prove that Jesus did not die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few.
The ones the Father gives to Jesus are those to whom He gives faith. It's faith that makes us His own, that makes us His Body, that makes us His children, that makes us a part of His Church and means heaven is our home.
This verse is not stating "No, Jesus did not die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."
I think the opposite is flat-out unbiblical. And that the invention of these few Anti-Calvin men who stated Jesus did NOT die for all but rather ONLY , SOLELY, EXCLUSIVELY for some unknown few is an exact contradiction of many Scriptures, of the Church Fathers, of an Ecumenical Council, of the faith of Christianity for 2000 years, and of John Calvin.
And it destroys any certainty of faith. NO ONE can know if Jesus died for THEM, if their faith is actually in something for THEM or is just a phantom, a non-reality, a ghost. NO ONE can know if God's offer of forgiveness is for THEM. And a Christian cannot preach the Gospel to anyone since it probably is not true for them, they are holding out a false claim.
Absolutely! Everyone here agrees with every word there. But what's entirely missing? "No Jesus did not die for all but only, exclusively, solely for some unknown few."
Now, IF you follow Arminius and insist that God FOREKNEW who was coming to faith and thus gave them faith, then (like Arminius) you must repudiate the doctrine of Election. Tradition has held that "foreknow" and "predestined" go together... God chose the Elect and God knew His Elect. All this referring to FAITH. This thread is about whether the Bible states that Jesus died for all OR if it states that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few.
Here are the two positions:
1. Jesus died for all people.
Here are just a few of the Scriptures that state this view. The view echos them, verbatim.
Hebrews 2:9 so that by the grace of God he might taste death
for everyone.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has
died for all
2 Corinthians 5:15 And
he died for all
1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom
for all.
and many more just like the above.
+ This view does NOT hold that all individuals have personal justification since that requires a second aspect, the divine gift of faith. BOTH the CROSS and FAITH are 100% the work and gift of God and together they bring justification (narrow sense) to the individual.
+ This view simply echos those words from the Bible. It doesn't explain anything, it doesn't deny anything, it affirms one point: Jesus died for all. It echos verbatim what God so often stated.
+ It is the view of the Early Church Fathers, of the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, the Methodist Church, most Baptist churches and Evangelical churches and nearly all other denominations and faith communities. It was declared doctrine by a Church Council in the 9th Century. It was the view of John Calvin.
2. No, Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY for some unknown few.
Here are the Scriptures that state this view:
Crickets.
+ For God to be wrong in all those MANY Scriptures that specifically, verbatim, in black-and-white words all who can read see, that Jesus died for all.... don't you need Scriptures (perhaps an equal number) that specifically, verbatim, in black-and-white words all who can read see, that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few?"
+ There is a verse that says "Jesus died for the Elect" but none that say ONLY for the Elect. And there are verses that state that Jesus died for us (Christians) but none that state ONLY for us (indeed, see
1 John 2:2). And without the "only" the point is unsubstantiated. Apologists of this view must employ a silly logical fallacy, one illustrated by this: "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Or "Bob loves his wife, ergo he ONLY loves his wife and not his kids." Even my four year old son can see the absurdity of the logical fallacy radical, extremist Calvinists use as their apologetic for this invention. The whole apologetic has not one Scripture that states their point. It's based entirely on a logical fallacy.
+ And of course if this horrible invention is true, then no one can know if Jesus' death is for THEM (odds are, it's not). And no way to know if their trust in that death for THEM means anything at all since they can't know if it was for them (probably not).
A blessed Advent and Christmas to you and yours....
- Josiah
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