Were the Reformers Saved?

[1689Dave]

Some were and some weren't, but the Anabaptism movement was and is notoriously fragmented, so perhaps in the future you should refer to your admiration for the Mennonites rather than to the larger Anabaptist movement.

Menno Simons speaks for most. You would like the Munster group to identify Anabaptism but it does not. Compare your church history to the Mennonites. It will speak volumes.

 

[Josiah]

Dave,

The issue is this: You stated that Luther murdered thousands. Thousands died because he murdered them. Did he? If so, produce the names of those he murdered - or at least some solid, reliable historical record stating specifically that "Luther murdered thousands." If you told a falsehood, man up: Confess it, repent and ask for forgiveness.


.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,

The issue is this: You stated that Luther murdered thousands. Thousands died because he murdered them. Did he? If so, produce the names of those he murdered - or at least some solid, reliable historical record stating specifically that "Luther murdered thousands." If you told a falsehood, man up: Confess it, repent and ask for forgiveness.


.

He admits to it.
When he [Luther] was in later years reproached for such violent language, and for inciting territorial lords to merciless slaughter (they killed over 100,000 peasants), he answered defiantly: "It was I, Martin Luther, who slew all the peasants in the insurrection, for I commanded them to be slaughtered. All their blood is upon my shoulders. But I cast it on our Lord God who commanded me to speak in this way."

[13] Martin Luther, Werke, Erlangen edition,
vol. 24, p. 284; 294; vol. 15, p. 276; passim.



"For if a man is an open rebel, every man is
his judge and executioner, just as when a fire
starts, the first to put it out is best man. . . .
Therefore let everyone who can smite, slay,
and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that
nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful, or
devilish than a rebel. It is just as when one
must kill a mad dog: if you do not strike him
he will strike you, and a whole land with you.
The Anabaptists

. . . Stab, smite, slay, whoever can. If you die
in doing it, well for you! A more blessed death
can never be yours, for you die in obeying the
divine Word and commandment in Romans
XIII, and in loving service of your neighbor
whom you are rescuing from the bonds of hell
and the devil." "A rebel is not worth
answering with arguments, for he does not
accept them. The answer for such mouths is a
fist that brings sweat from the nose. The
peasants would not listen; they would not let
anyone tell them anything; their ears must be
unbuttoned with bullets, till their heads jump
off their shoulders....On the obstinate,
hardened, blinded peasants, let no one have
mercy, but let everyone, as he is able, hew,
stab, slay, lay about him as though among mad
dogs, .... so that peace and safety may be
maintained. . . . And beyond all doubt, these
are precious works of mercy, love, and
kindness, since there is nothing on earth that is
worse than disturbance, insecurity, oppression,
violence, and injustice, etc., etc."

[13] Martin Luther, Werke, Erlangen edition,
vol. 24, p. 294; vol. 15, p. 276; passim.

 

[Josiah]

He admits to it

No.

Seriously, I think you have a problem with reading. You "see" all kinds of words that aren't there and don't see all kinds of words that are there. You don't seem to actually read what you post and certainly not what others post.

As you prove, Luther never "admitted" to murdering thousands. According to this snippet you found online, Luther "admits" to commanding the murders - not to performing them. Again, that reading problem.

By the way, this snippet is not from Luther's Works because EVERY WORD in Luther's works are his own. This is a comment from some OTHER book, which CLAIMS to reference various places for this quote. Very unscholarly.


So...

YOU stated that "Luther murder thousands."
Try reading what you stated.
READ the 3 words.
They aren't that difficult.
You stated this repeatedly:
"Luther murdered thousands."

You did not state, "I found something on the internet which claims to have a quote from Luther were he says he ordered the death of some peasents in an insurrection." No. You didn't state that. READ what you posted and that will be undeniably obvious. You stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

Now, stop trying to deflect and evade.
You who speak so much of the importance of righteousness and repentance.

Man up to what you repeatedly stated. In 3 simple words"
"Luther murdered thousands."

It matters not a bit if Anabaptists were nice or bad. It matters not if the insurrectionists were Anabaptists or not. Whether there were 100 or 1000000 of them. Stop the diversions. Here's what you stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

Either give the names of those thousands or at the very least, quote from some RELIABLE, scholarly historical book that STATES that "thousands died because Luther personally killed them." OR man up. Confess your error, confess that you wrongly flamed someone. Repent. Seek forgiveness. It's the adult thing to do. It's the Christian thing to do.



.

 

[1689Dave]

No.

Seriously, I think you have a problem with reading. You "see" all kinds of words that aren't there and don't see all kinds of words that are there. You don't seem to actually read what you post and certainly not what others post.

As you prove, Luther never "admitted" to murdering thousands. According to this snippet you found online, Luther "admits" to commanding the murders - not to performing them. Again, that reading problem.

By the way, this snippet is not from Luther's Works because EVERY WORD in Luther's works are his own. This is a comment from some OTHER book, which CLAIMS to reference various places for this quote. Very unscholarly.


So...

YOU stated that "Luther murder thousands."
Try reading what you stated.
READ the 3 words.
They aren't that difficult.
You stated this repeatedly:
"Luther murdered thousands."

You did not state, "I found something on the internet which claims to have a quote from Luther were he says he ordered the death of some peasents in an insurrection." No. You didn't state that. READ what you posted and that will be undeniably obvious. You stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

Now, stop trying to deflect and evade.
You who speak so much of the importance of righteousness and repentance.

Man up to what you repeatedly stated. In 3 simple words"
"Luther murdered thousands."

It matters not a bit if Anabaptists were nice or bad. It matters not if the insurrectionists were Anabaptists or not. Whether there were 100 or 1000000 of them. Stop the diversions. Here's what you stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

Either give the names of those thousands or at the very least, quote from some RELIABLE, scholarly historical book that STATES that "thousands died because Luther personally killed them." OR man up. Confess your error, confess that you wrongly flamed someone. Repent. Seek forgiveness. It's the adult thing to do. It's the Christian thing to do.



.

Luther, your guy admits to killing 1000s. "Say it ain't so joe" Is all you can come up with.

 

[Albion]

Luther, your guy admits to killing 1000s. "Say it ain't so joe" Is all you can come up with.

Based on everything you've argued here on this particular topic, would you also say that Joe Biden is a murderer?

 

[Albion]

Luther, your guy admits to killing 1000s. "Say it ain't so joe" Is all you can come up with.

No, the main thing to be gained from what you are referring to is probably the realization that you do not know Luther at all well. It has to do with his manner of speaking, and that isn't confined to this topic that you are so stuck on. But you haven't a clue what I'm talking about, I'm sure.`

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree with the seven ecumenical councils. They not only make sure I'm conformed to ancient Christianity, but they also help me spot heretical movements in today's churches.

If you accept all seven, which maybe you do, why then are you a Baptist rather than Catholic or perhaps Orthodox?

 

[Albion]

Menno Simons speaks for most. You would like the Munster group to identify Anabaptism but it does not. Compare your church history to the Mennonites. It will speak volumes.

It does indeed.

The Mennonites are about as extreme "as they come." In many ways. My church is just the opposite.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Menno Simons speaks for most. You would like the Munster group to identify Anabaptism but it does not. Compare your church history to the Mennonites. It will speak volumes.

Mennonites are, according to their doctrine, non-violent and most members obey that teaching. Yet Mennonites shun those who are excommunicated. I think shunning is unkind, but I will not say that Mennonites are bad people or that shunning is murder.

 

[1689Dave]

Mennonites are, according to their doctrine, non-violent and most members obey that teaching. Yet Mennonites shun those who are excommunicated. I think shunning is unkind, but I will not say that Mennonites are bad people or that shunning is murder.

Shunning works. It keeps the lights turned on the sin normally causing the person to repent. I worked around the Mennonites for a couple of years as a war resister. It's a completely different atmosphere than what we normally experience today. Very courageous people. One of my buddies was a human shield chained to a waterworks facility in Iraq trying to prevent Bush's phony war from taking place.

 

[1689Dave]

If you accept all seven, which maybe you do, why then are you a Baptist rather than Catholic or perhaps Orthodox?

They departed from the creeds. Remember Augustine and Pelagius? Most if not all follow Pelagius in his heresy today. Free Will is still heresy.

 

[MoreCoffee]

They departed from the creeds. Remember Augustine and Pelagius? Most if not all follow Pelagius in his heresy today. Free Will is still heresy.

Doesn't your approach leave you with just Dave alone in his Dave approved religion?

 

[1689Dave]

Doesn't your approach leave you with just Dave alone in his Dave approved religion?

Instead of finding a church and taking part, I study the biblical model for a church and look for that. If it bothers my conscience to tithe to a church I might visit, I walk away and keep looking.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Instead of finding a church and taking part, I study the biblical model for a church and look for that. If it bothers my conscience to tithe to a church I might visit, I walk away and keep looking.

Give to charity, no one needs to tithe to a church.

 

[1689Dave]

Give to charity, no one needs to tithe to a church.

This I do, normally to the "Starvation Army" or Good Will. You can remain anonymous while letting them sell and give to the poor for you.

 

[Josiah]

Luther, your guy admits to killing 1000s.

No.

According to YOU, in a quote from a source still unidentified, this source has Luther stating, ""It was I, Martin Luther, who slew all the peasants in the insurrection, for I commanded them to be slaughtered." IF this quote is legit, then Luther is stating he COMMANDED it, not that he DID it. Seriously, I think you have a problem with reading, certainly in what others post but even in things that you post. You seem unable to read either.

As you prove, Luther never "admitted" to murdering thousands. According to this unidentified, uncredited snippet you found online, Luther "admits" to commanding the murders - not to performing them. Again, that reading problem.

By the way, this snippet is not from Luther's Works because EVERY WORD in Luther's works are his own. This is a comment from some OTHER book, which CLAIMS to reference various places for this quote.


So... stop the evasions, stop showing you have nothing to support your flame.

YOU stated that "Luther murder thousands."
Try reading what you stated.
READ the 3 words.
They aren't that difficult.
You stated this repeatedly:
"Luther murdered thousands."

You did not state, "I found something on the internet which claims to have a quote from Luther were he says he ordered the death of some peasants in an insurrection." No. You didn't state that. READ what you posted and that will be undeniably obvious. You stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

Now, stop trying to deflect and evade.
You who speak so much of the importance of righteousness and repentance.

Man up to what you repeatedly stated. In 3 simple words"
"Luther murdered thousands."

It matters not a bit if Anabaptists were nice or bad. It matters not if the insurrectionists were Anabaptists or not. Whether there were 100 or 1000000 of them. Stop the diversions. Here's what you stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

Either give the names of those thousands or at the very least, quote from some RELIABLE, scholarly historical book that STATES that "thousands died because Luther personally killed them." OR man up. Confess your error, confess that you wrongly flamed someone. Repent. Seek forgiveness. It's the adult thing to do. It's the Christian thing to do.



.

 

[Albion]

Instead of finding a church and taking part, I study the biblical model for a church and look for that.

But from what you've told us, there isn't a single one out of the tens of thousands out there that meets your personal standards.

And you really don't "look for" any, do you? You've told us that you already have written off all of them and wouldn't join any of them in any case.

 

[1689Dave]

No.

According to YOU, in a quote from a source still unidentified, this source has Luther stating, ""It was I, Martin Luther, who slew all the peasants in the insurrection, for I commanded them to be slaughtered." IF this quote is legit, then Luther is stating he COMMANDED it, not that he DID it. Seriously, I think you have a problem with reading, certainly in what others post but even in things that you post. You seem unable to read either.

As you prove, Luther never "admitted" to murdering thousands. According to this unidentified, uncredited snippet you found online, Luther "admits" to commanding the murders - not to performing them. Again, that reading problem.

By the way, this snippet is not from Luther's Works because EVERY WORD in Luther's works are his own. This is a comment from some OTHER book, which CLAIMS to reference various places for this quote.


So... stop the evasions, stop showing you have nothing to support your flame.

YOU stated that "Luther murder thousands."
Try reading what you stated.
READ the 3 words.
They aren't that difficult.
You stated this repeatedly:
"Luther murdered thousands."

You did not state, "I found something on the internet which claims to have a quote from Luther were he says he ordered the death of some peasants in an insurrection." No. You didn't state that. READ what you posted and that will be undeniably obvious. You stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

Now, stop trying to deflect and evade.
You who speak so much of the importance of righteousness and repentance.

Man up to what you repeatedly stated. In 3 simple words"
"Luther murdered thousands."

It matters not a bit if Anabaptists were nice or bad. It matters not if the insurrectionists were Anabaptists or not. Whether there were 100 or 1000000 of them. Stop the diversions. Here's what you stated, "Luther murdered thousands."

Either give the names of those thousands or at the very least, quote from some RELIABLE, scholarly historical book that STATES that "thousands died because Luther personally killed them." OR man up. Confess your error, confess that you wrongly flamed someone. Repent. Seek forgiveness. It's the adult thing to do. It's the Christian thing to do.



.

Are you familiar with Luther's reported killing of women he suspected of being witches? This has a lot of revealing history of his involvement.

 

[Albion]

Are you familiar with Luther's killing of women he suspected of being witches? This has a lot of revealing history of his involvement.

This is just ridiculous trolling meant to give you some sort of perverse thrill thanks to outraging everyone else by being more and more absurd with your stories.

There is no evidence that Luther ever killed witches.