Were the Reformers Saved?

[Lamb]

Here's the gist. Paul spells it out clearly. We have the wicked flesh before we experience salvation. It can only choose to sin. After God sends His Spirit into our hearts, we have a loving nature that hates sin and loves righteousness. This sets up a battle between the flesh and Spirit within until we die and the ground destroys the flesh. That's why Paul could say "O' wretched man that I am". Only the saved experience this battle daily.

Don't you think the Reformers struggled daily as we modern Christians do with sin?

 

[1689Dave]

Don't you think the Reformers struggled daily as we modern Christians do with sin?

I don't struggle with murdering thousands of Christians.

 

[Lamb]

I don't struggle with murdering thousands of Christians.

You struggle with other sins and I watch you as you have treated others here on this site without love. Shall we say you're not saved because you don't love your neighbor as yourself? Do you see how that type of accusation is unfounded? So stop trying to damn others to hell when that's not YOUR job.

 

[1689Dave]

You struggle with other sins and I watch you as you have treated others here on this site without love. Shall we say you're not saved because you don't love your neighbor as yourself? Do you see how that type of accusation is unfounded? So stop trying to damn others to hell when that's not YOUR job.

Is it your job to judge my motives? That is a sin for us to do so. I recall trying to get a brother to use fewer words to be more understandable but you scolded me for that as if I shared the same motive you might have if you were to do that. BTW, I think you are doing a good job in your position.

 

[Josiah]

Here's the gist.

You repeatedly accused Luther of a horrific sin.
You repeatedly stated that "Luther murdered thousands."

You did not say, "I read something on the internet that claimed Luther encouraged thousands to be killed."
You did not say, "I read something on the internet that claimed Luther took responsibility for these deaths."
Nor did you provide substantiation for any of those things you never said.

What you repeatedly stated is "Luther murdered thousands."
You were given many opportunities to say, "Well, I didn't mean that, sorry, what I meant to say is..." but you didn't.
You just kept repeating, "Luther murdered thousands."

We've asked for substantiation for this gross flame. But all we got was evasion and exact repeats of the flame.
We've asked for the names of those he murdered. You seemed imply one person but he was never murdered by anyone.


Dave, do you actually READ anything?
You've confessed you often don't read what others post to you (explains a lot)
And obviously, you didn't read your own posts where you issued this horrible flame.
Dave, if you don't READ what others post, you don't even READ what you post...
How can we have a discussion?
Explains a lot!!!!
This is a discussion forum.
That mandates that you READ. What you post to us, what we post to you.

If you READ this (???), then do the right thing:
Either state the names of the thousands you claim Luther killed; they died because he murdered them.
Or apologize, repent and ask forgiveness.
It's the adult and Christian thing to do.

And Dave, if you continue to be unwilling to READ what others post, even what you post, then what are you doing at a discussion forum? This is not your private blog, it's a discussion forum- and discussion MANDATES that all READ what is stated and they MEAN what they state. Maybe you are just at the wrong site, maybe you need to create a private blog.




.

 

[1689Dave]

Thanks again for the opportunity to keep Luther's own words about your issue before the public's eyes. But here is Luther again, in his own words:

When he [Luther] was in later years reproached for such violent language, and for inciting territorial lords to merciless slaughter (they killed over 100,000 peasants), he answered defiantly: "It was I, Martin Luther, who slew all the peasants in the insurrection, for I commanded them to be slaughtered. All their blood is upon my shoulders. But I cast it on our Lord God who commanded me to speak in this way."

[13] Martin Luther, Werke, Erlangen edition,
vol. 24, p. 284; 294; vol. 15, p. 276; passim.

 

[Albion]

For the moment, let's forget Luther whom you accuse of being a murderer because he used "violent language" and remember that your claim was that ALL the Reformers were murderers.

So where is the evidence to support that claim of yours?

 

[Albion]

The Protestants placed the Church under the State and used it to do their killing.

Any thoughts?

Yes.

You lavish praise upon the so-called Radical Reformers, i.e. the Anabaptists. And they did exactly what you are denouncing with everyone else!

The Anabaptists were unpopular with normal Christians because the Anabaptists 1) denied Baptism and mocked it by holding big gatherings in which their people splashed around in the village fountains or rivers, etc. and 2) the Anabaptists "placed the Church under the State and used it" to accomplish their own purposes.

You have several times denounced as morally wrong the placing of the Church under the State when it occurred under Catholics or mainline Protestants while exonerating the Anabaptists who did the same thing!

 

[1689Dave]

For the moment, let's forget Luther whom you accuse of being a murderer because he used "violent language" and remember that your claim was that ALL the Reformers were murderers.

So where is the evidence to support that claim of yours?

​ Luther's own words:​ "For if a man is an open rebel, every man is his judge and executioner, just as when a fire starts, the first to put it out is best man. . . . Therefore let everyone who can smite, slay, and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful, or devilish than a rebel. It is just as when one must kill a mad dog: if you do not strike him he will strike you, and a whole land with you.​ ​ ​ . . . Stab, smite, slay, whoever can. If you die in doing it, well for you! A more blessed death can never be yours, for you die in obeying the divine Word and commandment in Romans XIII, and in loving service of your neighbor whom you are rescuing from the bonds of hell and the devil." "A rebel is not worth answering with arguments, for he does not accept them. The answer for such mouths is a fist that brings sweat from the nose. The peasants would not listen; they would not let anyone tell them anything; their ears must be unbuttoned with bullets, till their heads jump off their shoulders....On the obstinate, hardened, blinded peasants, let no one have mercy, but let everyone, as he is able, hew, stab, slay, lay about him as though among mad dogs, .... so that peace and safety may be maintained. . . . And beyond all doubt, these are precious works of mercy, love, and kindness, since there is nothing on earth that is worse than disturbance, insecurity, oppression, violence, and injustice, etc., etc."​ Martin Luther, Werke, Erlangen edition, vol. 24, p. 294; vol. 15, p. 276; passim.​ Anabaptism was made a capital crime. Prices were set on the heads of Anabaptists. To give them food and shelter was a made a crime. The duke of Bavaria, in 1527, gave orders that the imprisoned Anabaptists should be burned at the stake — unless they recanted, in which case they should be beheaded. In Catholic countries the Anabaptists, as a rule, were executed by burning at the stake; in Lutheran and Zwinglian states, Anabaptists were generally executed by beheading or drowning. "Mennonites in Europe" by John Horsch

 

[Josiah]

Dave,

Stop the diversions.


You repeatedly accused Luther of a horrific sin.
You repeatedly stated that "Luther murdered thousands."

You did not say, "I read something on the internet that claimed Luther encouraged thousands to be killed."
You did not say, "I read something on the internet that claimed Luther took responsibility for these deaths."
Nor did you provide substantiation for any of those things you never said.

What you repeatedly stated is "Luther murdered thousands."
You were given many opportunities to say, "Well, I didn't mean that, sorry, what I meant to say is..." but you didn't.
You just kept repeating, "Luther murdered thousands."

We've asked for substantiation for this gross flame. But all we get was evasion and exact repeats of the flame.
We've asked for the names of those he murdered. You seemed imply one person but he was never murdered by anyone.

If you READ this (???), then do the right thing:
Either state the names of the thousands you claim Luther killed; they died because he murdered them.
Or apologize, repent and ask forgiveness.
It's the adult and Christian thing to do.


.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,

Stop the diversions.


You repeatedly accused Luther of a horrific sin.
You repeatedly stated that "Luther murdered thousands."

You did not say, "I read something on the internet that claimed Luther encouraged thousands to be killed."
You did not say, "I read something on the internet that claimed Luther took responsibility for these deaths."
Nor did you provide substantiation for any of those things you never said.

What you repeatedly stated is "Luther murdered thousands."
You were given many opportunities to say, "Well, I didn't mean that, sorry, what I meant to say is..." but you didn't.
You just kept repeating, "Luther murdered thousands."

We've asked for substantiation for this gross flame. But all we get was evasion and exact repeats of the flame.
We've asked for the names of those he murdered. You seemed imply one person but he was never murdered by anyone.

If you READ this (???), then do the right thing:
Either state the names of the thousands you claim Luther killed; they died because he murdered them.
Or apologize, repent and ask forgiveness.
It's the adult and Christian thing to do.


.

Anabaptism was made a capital crime. Prices were set on the heads of Anabaptists. To give them food and shelter was a made a crime. The duke of Bavaria, in 1527, gave orders that the imprisoned Anabaptists should be burned at the stake — unless they recanted, in which case they should be beheaded. In Catholic countries the Anabaptists, as a rule, were executed by burning at the stake; in Lutheran and Zwinglian states, Anabaptists were generally executed by beheading or drowning.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My point is that they were probably not saved based on their actions. You can arrive at the truth through logic if your starting place is correct. So the truths they held did not necessarily come from any spirituality we deem necessary to qualify as a Christian. But their logic is based on Augustine's teachings against Pelagianism.

I am a little confused by the various posts you've written.

• First you appear to teach Limited Atonement and oppose what you call "Universal atonement".
• Then you seem to teach that without holiness no one will see God.
• Now it looks like you're discrediting the founders of Protestantism.
• But you dislike Catholicism.
• And you're a Baptist
• Yet you speak approvingly of Anabaptists

So, what is all this leading to? Are you planning to become a Mennonite, a Hutterite, perhaps Amish?
It is unclear where you are going.

 

[1689Dave]

I am a little confused by the various posts you've written.

• First you appear to teach Limited Atonement and oppose what you call "Universal atonement".
• Then you seem to teach that without holiness no one will see God.
• Now it looks like you're discrediting the founders of Protestantism.
• But you dislike Catholicism.
• And you're a Baptist
• Yet you speak approvingly of Anabaptists

So, what is all this leading to? Are you planning to become a Mennonite, a Hutterite, perhaps Amish?
It is unclear where you are going.

I'm a Calvinistic Baptist. But I don't think Calvin was saved, nor any of the Reformers. I live the Sermon on the Mount. I could call myself an Augustinian Baptist but people are more familiar with Calvin.

 

[Albion]

Anabaptism was made a capital crime. Prices were set on the heads of Anabaptists. To give them food and shelter was a made a crime. The duke of Bavaria, in 1527, gave orders that the imprisoned Anabaptists should be burned at the stake — unless they recanted, in which case they should be beheaded. In Catholic countries the Anabaptists, as a rule, were executed by burning at the stake; in Lutheran and Zwinglian states, Anabaptists were generally executed by beheading or drowning.

AND the Anabaptists (whom you laud as wonderful examples of what a Christian ought to be) were revolutionaries who put the Church under the State.

In other words, the people you admire were worse than the other Protestant Reformers with respect to the behavior that you condemned in them!

 

[Albion]

I'm a Calvinistic Baptist. But I don't think Calvin was saved, nor any of the Reformers. I live the Sermon on the Mount. I could call myself an Augustinian Baptist but people are more familiar with Calvin.

Let's correct that. You deny the Trinity and Baptism. Baptists, as a rule, do not. You refuse to belong to any Christian denomination, Baptists included. And you do not observe any of the ordinances that Baptists recognize.

You are a 'Calvinistic Baptist' or a 'Regular Baptist' only to the extent that you choose to claim the title when it's convenient. You actually are NOT any of those in either doctrine or practice or membership.

 

[1689Dave]

AND the Anabaptists (whom you laud as wonderful examples of what a Christian ought to be) were revolutionaries who put the Church under the State.

In other words, the people you admire were worse than the other Protestant Reformers with respect to the behavior that you condemned in them!

Most Anabaptists were pacifists under the tutelage of Menno Simons. They lived the Sermon on the Mount. The Munster group was not cut from the same cloth. But it seems the bigotry of the age tried to use them to undermine Menno and his students.

How do you stack up with the Sermon on the Mount? Has your church ever mentioned it? You are not saved without it according to Apostle John.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm a Calvinistic Baptist. But I don't think Calvin was saved, nor any of the Reformers. I live the Sermon on the Mount. I could call myself an Augustinian Baptist but people are more familiar with Calvin.

Given @Albion's comment shown below. Is anything that he wrote correct? Do you, for example, have some issue with the doctrine of the Holy Trinity?

I am inclined to think that you accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity since participation in the "Christian" subforums implies personal acceptance of the Nicene Creed.

Let's correct that. You deny the Trinity and Baptism. Baptists, as a rule, do not. You refuse to belong to any Christian denomination, Baptists included. And you do not observe any of the ordinances that Baptists recognize.

You are a 'Calvinistic Baptist' or a 'Regular Baptist' only to the extent that you choose to claim the title when it's convenient. You actually are NOT any of those in either doctrine or practice or membership.

 

[1689Dave]

Given @Albion's comment shown below. Is anything that he wrote correct? Do you, for example, have some issue with the doctrine of the Holy Trinity?

I am inclined to think that you accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity since participation in the "Christian" subforums implies personal acceptance of the Nicene Creed.

I agree with the seven ecumenical councils. They not only make sure I'm conformed to ancient Christianity, but they also help me spot heretical movements in today's churches.

 

[Albion]

Most Anabaptists were pacifists under the tutelage of Menno Simons.

Some were and some weren't, but the Anabaptism movement was and is notoriously fragmented, so perhaps in the future you should refer to your admiration for the Mennonites rather than to the larger Anabaptist movement.

 

[Albion]

I agree with the seven ecumenical councils. They not only make sure I'm conformed to ancient Christianity, but they also help me spot heretical movements in today's churches.

Oh please. Your own views are heretical, if the Ecumenical Councils are your standard.