Were the Reformers Saved?

[1689Dave]

This is just ridiculous trolling meant to give you some sort of perverse thrill thanks to outraging everyone else by being more and more absurd with your stories.

There is no evidence that Luther ever killed witches.

I did not realize that the Reformation was as much about killing fortune tellers, supposed witches, and magicians as it was about Anabaptists. Do me a favor. Study to prove what you think is true, before falsely accusing me or anyone. Document what you accuse others of.

 

[Albion]

I did not realize that the Reformation was as much about killing fortune tellers, supposed witches, and magicians as it was about Anabaptists. Do me a favor. Study to prove what you think is true, before falsely accusing me or anyone.

And my advice to you is to study to prove what you think it true, before falsely accusing me or anyone.

The difference is that I DO know something about the topics in which I participate while you just throw out absurd claims and phony history in order to annoy the rest of the people here.

And perhaps most revealing of all is the fact that when you are caught in a falsehood, you simply repeat that statement. You cannot defend what you post as if it were God's own truth.

 

[1689Dave]

And my advice to you is to study to prove what you think it true, before falsely accusing me or anyone.

The difference is that I DO know something about the topics in which I participate while you just throw out absurd claims and phony history in order to annoy the rest of the people here.

And perhaps most revealing of all is the fact that when you are caught in a falsehood, you simply repeat that statement. You cannot defend what you post as if it were God's own truth.

You have nothing to offer but your venting.

 

[Albion]

You have nothing to offer but your venting.

Good grief.

 

[Josiah]

You have nothing to offer but your venting.

Dave, you have nothing to offer but your BASELESS ACCUSATIONS.

Your repeated accusation that Luther murdered thousands.
NOTHING to show Luther personally murdered ANYONE, much less thousands.

Now your additional accusation that Luther murdered witches.
NOTHING to show that Luther personally murdered ANYONE, much less thousands.

Either you care choosing to "bear false witness"
Or you don't read even what you yourself state, and thus don't know what you are stating.


MAN UP.

Either PROVE from respected historians of the time that STATE (and give proof) that Luther personally killed thousands of people, including witches. Or stop lying, admit that you lied, repent and ask forgiveness.
That's the adult, mature thing to do.
That's the Christian thing to do.


I don't know if you have ANY credibility or respect left here; I suspect that's hit rock bottom, zero, you've pretty much destroyed all that. But do the right thing.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, you have nothing to offer but your BASELESS ACCUSATIONS.

Your repeated accusation that Luther murdered thousands.
NOTHING to show Luther personally murdered ANYONE, much less thousands.

Now your additional accusation that Luther murdered witches.
NOTHING to show that Luther personally murdered ANYONE, much less thousands.

Either you care choosing to "bear false witness"
Or you don't read even what you yourself state, and thus don't know what you are stating.


MAN UP.

Either PROVE from respected historians of the time that STATE (and given proof) that Luther personally killed thousands, including witches.
Or admit that you lied, repent and ask forgiveness. Stopping the lies.
That's the adult, mature thing to do.
That's the Christian thing to do.


I don't know if you have ANY credibility or respect left here; you've pretty much destroyed all that. But do the right thing.



.

He also reportedly killed deformed children thinking they were of the devil. Why don't you study to see if this is true?

 

[1689Dave]

Roman Catholics and Protestants alike persecuted the Anabaptists, resorting to torture and execution in attempts to curb the growth of the movement. The Protestants under Zwingli were the first to persecute the Anabaptists, with Felix Manz becoming the first Anabaptist martyr in 1527.

Martyrs Mirror: Introduction

The classic history of 16th century Anabaptist martyrs, part of a large online collection of personal narratives and prison letters: a mirror reflecting the hearts of real Christians preparing to die for the love of God.

www.homecomers.org

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, you have nothing to offer but your BASELESS ACCUSATIONS.

Your repeated accusation that Luther murdered thousands.
NOTHING to show Luther personally murdered ANYONE, much less thousands.

Now your additional accusation that Luther murdered witches.
NOTHING to show that Luther personally murdered ANYONE, much less thousands.

Either you care choosing to "bear false witness"
Or you don't read even what you yourself state, and thus don't know what you are stating.


MAN UP.

Either PROVE from respected historians of the time that STATE (and give proof) that Luther personally killed thousands of people, including witches. Or stop lying, admit that you lied, repent and ask forgiveness.
That's the adult, mature thing to do.
That's the Christian thing to do.


I don't know if you have ANY credibility or respect left here; I suspect that's hit rock bottom, zero, you've pretty much destroyed all that. But do the right thing.



.

… whatever you do, the devils are round you like wasps.”7 Luther firmly believed in witches, in their compacts and carnal intercourse with the Devil, and in their evil arts to cause illness and death in men.8 In his sermon of June 13, 1529, he even gave a caution against cold bathing in the open, declaring that the Devil haunted forests and rivers and lay on guard to catch men, for which reason some had been drowned in the Elbe.1 On August 22, 1529, he excommunicated a number of witches after the afternoon service (p. 32). In 1526 he repeatedly called on his congregation from the pulpit to kill witches.2 He even recommended the use of torture against them (pp. 37 f.). In his diary Luther’s table-companion Lauterbach records that Luther said at table: “For them (witches) there should be no mercy. For my part I would burn them” (p. 39). And the reformer recommended the Prince of Anhalt simply to drown idiot children, whom he supposed to be changelings or progeny of the Devil: he himself had seen one (p. 41). That witches were rightly burned to death he stressed in the pamphlet on the Councils and the Church published in 1539 (p. 43). In his cruel appeal from the pulpit he even had recourse to the Bible (p. 45). In all this he proved himself a son of mediaevalism and of ecclesiastical tradition; yet his belief in witches was clearly evidence also of his fear. Undeniably he did much to stimulate the monstrous persecution of witches3-one of the most deplorable facts in the life of this great man. On June 29, 1540, at Wittenberg, in Luther’s immediate vicinity, four persons were burnt as witches and sorcerers-according to a popular lithograph, after having had their limbs tom on the rack (p. 53).



Pfister, Oscar. Christianity and Fear (Roultedge Library Editions: Christianity) (p. 336). Taylor and Francis.

 

[Josiah]

Again, Dave shows he has NOTHING to substantiate his absurd accusations.

"Luther murdered thousands." No proof that he personally killed anyone.
"Luther murdered witches." No proof that he personally killed any witch.
"Luther murdered deformed children." No proof that he personally killed even one deformed child.

Either Dave does know what he's stating because he can't or won't read (even what he himself posts)
Or
He doesn't give a rip about truth and feels free knowingly bearing false witness.

I think his persistence in these gross accustative lies shows either his immaturity or his lack of Christian principles. Or that he just can't/won't read.

Do you think he has ANY credibility or respect left here?




.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, Dave shows he has NOTHING to substantiate his absurd accusations.

"Luther murdered thousands." No proof that he personally killed anyone.
"Luther murdered witches." No proof that he personally killed any witch.
"Luther murdered deformed children." No proof that he personally killed even one deformed child.

Either Dave does know what he's stating because he can't or won't read (even what he himself posts)
Or
He doesn't give a rip about truth and feels free knowingly bearing false witness.

I think his persistence in these gross accustative lies shows either his immaturity or his lack of Christian principles. Or that he just can't/won't read.

Do you think he has ANY credibility or respect left here?




.

The Protestants murdered thousands. Luther admitted it as posted. They also killed hundreds if not thousands of women claiming they were witches. History proves you wrong even if you continue to deny it. “The belief in the Devil had suddenly assumed a greater importance for religious ideas than the belief in God, and what was called fear of God during this period could frequently be called more correctly fear of the Devil.”,4 Between 1575 and 1700 the number of witches murdered in the civilized countries can hardly have been fewer than a million, of whom 25 to 30 per cent are believed to have been victims of this Protestant diabolism. In the course of these atavistic regressions a primitive sadism was released. In some places the Reformation led to an enormous increase in these horrors. Pfister, Oscar. Christianity and Fear (Roultedge Library Editions: Christianity) (p. 434). Taylor and Francis.

The Protestants, too, carried on an internecine strife with a violence and brutality in which no trace of the spirit of their Master remained. Melanchthon’s son-in-law, Kaspar Peucer, court physician to the Elector Augustus of Saxony, was kept in prison for twelve years on account of his Calvinist ideas, and was threatened with red-hot pincers by his Lutheran inquisitors if he should refuse to recant.



Pfister, Oscar. Christianity and Fear (Roultedge Library Editions: Christianity) (p. 436). Taylor and Francis.

 

[Stravinsk]

Eh...

I know this is a Christian thread and everyone wants to argue about who's the better sinner but since it's in Ethics and I'm seeing something ridiculous and I wanted to address it.

If I strangle someone with ill intent and the purpose of seeing them die I have murdered them.
If I use a tool instead, such as a knife or a gun or some other object I have murdered them.
Tools are not limited to objects, if I have people under my command that will follow my commands I am still using a tool.


The other point I make comment on is that the hero of most Christians is Saul/Paul - a murderer. A self confessed murderer. No, not full stop. He purportedly was blinded by a great light and heard the voice of Jesus and became saved on his new belief.

Good luck convincing anyone so convinced that salvation isn't universal for simply believing something.

 

[1689Dave]

Eh...

I know this is a Christian thread and everyone wants to argue about who's the better sinner but since it's in Ethics and I'm seeing something ridiculous and I wanted to address it.

If I strangle someone with ill intent and the purpose of seeing them die I have murdered them.
If I use a tool instead, such as a knife or a gun or some other object I have murdered them.
Tools are not limited to objects, if I have people under my command that will follow my commands I am still using a tool.


The other point I make comment on is that the hero of most Christians is Saul/Paul - a murderer. A self confessed murderer. No, not full stop. He purportedly was blinded by a great light and heard the voice of Jesus and became saved on his new belief.

Good luck convincing anyone so convinced that salvation isn't universal for simply believing something.

Democide (countable and uncountable, plural democides) (Mass) murder of people by a government that has power over them.

 

[1689Dave]

Eh...

I know this is a Christian thread and everyone wants to argue about who's the better sinner but since it's in Ethics and I'm seeing something ridiculous and I wanted to address it.

If I strangle someone with ill intent and the purpose of seeing them die I have murdered them.
If I use a tool instead, such as a knife or a gun or some other object I have murdered them.
Tools are not limited to objects, if I have people under my command that will follow my commands I am still using a tool.


The other point I make comment on is that the hero of most Christians is Saul/Paul - a murderer. A self confessed murderer. No, not full stop. He purportedly was blinded by a great light and heard the voice of Jesus and became saved on his new belief.

Good luck convincing anyone so convinced that salvation isn't universal for simply believing something.

Why are not all saved?

 

[1689Dave]

Pfister, Oscar. Christianity and Fear (Roultedge Library Editions: Christianity) (p. 436). Taylor and Francis. Is a must-read for anyone wanting to see the truth in the matter. He was a Lutheran Minister with a devotion to truth and honesty in the matter.

 

[Josiah]

Dave,

You've destroyed ANY credibility or respect any might have had for you.

You seem unable to read what YOU YOURSELF accused Luther of doing.

You keep evading your accusation (but then I don't think you read what you post, you aren't aware of your accusation)

You keep proving that you have NOTHING to support your horrific flame.

And you just go on and on and on and on and on with this........ in each post, destroying even more of your credibility.

There's none left.

Perhaps if you READ what you accused Luther of (but I don't think you can)
Perhaps if you gave substantiation that he personally performed those (but you can't)
But you won't. Even if you could.
It's not good for us to waste our time.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,

You've destroyed ANY credibility or respect any might have had for you.

You seem unable to read what YOU YOURSELF accused Luther of doing.

You keep evading your accusation (but then I don't think you read what you post, you aren't aware of your accusation)

You keep proving that you have NOTHING to support your horrific flame.

And you just go on and on and on and on and on with this........ in each post, destroying even more of your credibility.

There's none left.



.

Did you know how horrible Luther's abusive upbringing was? I think if we look honestly at the Reformation, we'll save face by not endorsing these people. Calvin was a monster but we haven't gotten to that yet.