Jesus died for the sins of the world

[1689Dave]

Does this mean that you cannot identify yourself as a Christian in any meaningful way? This is to say that by ducking the simple questions I asked you about a person who is a Christian for real and practices the Christian faith, you come across as a Christian in your mind only.

How can anyone prove they are saved on the internet? If you knew me personally you would know. Besides, Have you ever heard your church mention the Sermon on the Mount as depicting the life-style of the saved? No salvation apart from it.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave

Because your repudiation of the role of faith is wrong; it's heresy. As you have been told over and over and over and over, by several here.

It is FALSE that personal justification is the result of the Cross ALONE, void of faith. We reject your "correction" of God in John 3:16. God did not write, "For God so loved just a few people (probably not you) so that He gave His only-begotten son just to them (odds are, not you) so that they will not perish but have everlasting life whether they believe in what He did FOR THEM or spit in His face, repudiate all He did and denounce Him or not cuz faith is irrelevant and just a joke."

Your apologetic (a question and not substantiation) is "If Jesus died for all why aren't all saved?" is founded on this heresy that faith is irrelevant. You have been corrected. Many Scriptures have been given that state that faith is essential to personal justification.



.

What if you do not know what faith is? If you know, share it.

 

[Albion]

How can anyone prove they are saved on the internet?

I didn't ask you to prove that you are saved.

If you knew me personally you would know.

Well, I don't know you personally, so I have to ask you.

It seems that for a person who talks as though witnessing and living the Christian lifestyle are important, you work hard at being an unknown quantity.

Besides, Have you ever heard your church mention the Sermon on the Mount as depicting the life-style of the saved?

:sigh: Of course.

 

[1689Dave]

I didn't ask you to prove that you are saved.

Well, I don't know you personally, so I have to ask you.

It seems that for a person who talks as though witnessing and living the Christian lifestyle are important, you work hard at being an unknown quantity.

:sigh: Of course.

Prove you are saved.

 

[Josiah]

Prove you are saved.

Irrelevant. Another red herring.


We reject your heresy of repudiating faith. Again your foundational point of your apologetic that if Jesus died for all (as God says) that would mean all individuals have personal justification (the argument you raise ad nausium). But your point is not only unbiblical but heretical. You've just re-written John 3:16 (to correct God), "For God so loved some unknown few that He gave His son just for those few and they are saved whether they spit in His face and denounce His work or believe, it just doesn't matter, cuz God saves them regardless of faith, faith being a joke."

We reject your heresy of Pelagainism that faith is free-will choosing and thus a good work; that faith can only be the creation of dead atheistics and the gift of such to self. We hold that it is 100% the gift and work of God. When you accuse us (and God) of heresy for insisting that faith is essential, you do so because you impose your Pelagianism on us since you reject that faith is the gift of God.



Here's God's view:


Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true.



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved regardless of faith. Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification.


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification.






.

 

[1689Dave]

Irrelevant. Another red herring.



.

Where's your explanation of faith?

 

[Albion]

Prove you are saved.

Well, it's time to summarize what we've been able to learn about you (since you appear not to be willing to offer any further information).

From what I can tell, you had a "brainstorm" or experienced a mental aberration at some time, probably after having picked up a few bits and pieces of the Christian faith from society but only indirectly, and you imagined that God or Jesus had come to you personally (You label that as something happening in a "spiritual" manner as opposed to the normal process in Christ's church and in the Biblical manner).

You think that Christians are basically invalid because they came to Faith in the normal way rather than having been personally visited and authenticated by God "spiritually." That's even though Christ personally founded a visible church organization, set up its leadership, gave vivid examples of the ceremonies followers were to engage in, and so on. You don't care about any of that.

Furthermore, you are an anti-Trinitarian although you say you are a believer in the Nicene Creed. And you claim a Baptist "affiliation" although you have said you don't intend to affiliate with any denomination.

 

[1689Dave]

Well, it's time to summarize what we've been able to learn about you (since you appear not to be willing to offer any further information).

From what I can tell, you had a "brainstorm" or experienced a mental aberration at some time, probably after having picked up a few bits and pieces of the Christian faith from society but only indirectly), and you imagined that God or Jesus had come to you personally (You label that as something happening in a "spiritual" manner as opposed to the normal process and the Biblical manner).

You think that Christians are basically invalid because they came to Faith in the normal way rather than having been personally visited and authenticated by God "spiritually." That's even though Christ personally founded a visible church organization, set up its leadership, gave vivid examples of the ceremonies followers were to engage in, and so on. You don't care about any of that.

Furthermore, you are an anti-Trinitarian although you say you are a believer in the Nicene Creed. And you claim a Baptist "affiliation" although you have said you don't intend to affiliate with any denomination.

It's time to move on.

 

[Albion]

It's time to move on.

Very well. You might try Christian Forums.

 

[Josiah]

It's time to move on.

Yes, time for you to drop all the red herrings. And address the issue.


Here's God's view:


Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true. But you have not one Scripture that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved (not even a mention of faith). Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification. And if we mention faith, you either ignore this or impose your Pelagianism on us, insisting that faith is not the work or gift of God but is the "free choice" of unregenerate, atheists unbelievers, something they create and give to self.


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification.






.

 

[1689Dave]

Very well. You might try Christian Forums.

Let us move on and remain friends on this forum.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes, time for you to drop all the red herrings. And address the issue.


Here's God's view:


Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true. But you have not one Scripture that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved (not even a mention of faith). Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification. And if we mention faith, you either ignore this or impose your Pelagianism on us, insisting that faith is not the work or gift of God but is the "free choice" of unregenerate, atheists unbelievers, something they create and give to self.


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification.






.

From the start, you think people choose to believe in order to save themselves. This has nothing to do with Bible faith. If you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe.

 

[Josiah]

From the start, you think people choose to believe in order to save themselves.

@1689Dave


How absurd, how silly.

You have been told, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER, IN POST AFTER POST, FOR MANY WEEKS, that I hold that personal justification is 100% the work and gift of God. The Cross and faith are totally, absolutely, completely the work and gift of God. But you MUST ignore this and impose your Pelagianism on us for the fallacy of your apologetic to have any legs at all, you have to made us Pelagianists like you.

It's YOU insisting that if faith is involved, then works-righteousness and "free will" are involved. You have been consistently repudiated your heresy. I hold that EVERYTHING involved with personal justification is 100% the work and gift of God.


Here's God's view:


Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true. But you have not one Scripture that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved. As you've repeatedly have stated, If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification. If anyone so much as mention faith, you either ignore it or impose your Pelagianism, insisting that faith is not the work or gift of God but is the "free choice" of unregenerate, atheists unbelievers, something they create and give to self.


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification.






.

 

[Albion]

From the start, you think people choose to believe in order to save themselves. This has nothing to do with Bible faith. If you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe.

Coming to Faith is a matter of believing--just as the Bible teaches in many places. Nowhere does it teach that a person is to do nothing until God makes a special decision to choose him and then comes to that person in a dream and makes him think he's been saved forevermore, freed also from all the bother of being part of the Church that Christ founded.

In your theology, only three or four items of belief are worth anything. All the rest of Christianity you've discarded.

And, once again, I remind you that this is a Christian Only forum and you do not meet the necessary requirement. If you want to live a "Christian" lifestyle without being a Christian, it seems that you would want to have some integrity along the way.

 

[1689Dave]

How absurd, how silly.

You have been told, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER, IN POST AFTER POST, FOR MANY WEEKS, that I hold that personal justification is 100% the work and gift of God. The Cross and faith are totally, absolutely, completely the work and gift of God. But you MUST ignore this and impose your Pelagianism on us, for the fallacy of your apologetic to have any legs at all, you have to made us Pelagianists like you.

It's YOU insisting that if faith is involved, then works-righteousness and "free will" are involved. You have been consistently repudiated your heresy. I hold that EVERYTHING involved with personal justification is 100% the work and gift of God.


Here's God's view:


Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true. But you have not one Scripture that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved (not even a mention of faith). Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification. And if we mention faith, you either ignore this or impose your Pelagianism on us, insisting that faith is not the work or gift of God but is the "free choice" of unregenerate, atheists unbelievers, something they create and give to self.


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification.






.

You imply only those who choose to believe save themselves. You need to study Luther's bondage of the will in this matter.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes, time for you to drop all the red herrings. And address the issue.


Here's God's view:


Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true. But you have not one Scripture that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved (not even a mention of faith). Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification. And if we mention faith, you either ignore this or impose your Pelagianism on us, insisting that faith is not the work or gift of God but is the "free choice" of unregenerate, atheists unbelievers, something they create and give to self.


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification.






.

Think like a Hebrew to whom it was written instead of an Americanised Christian, and you'll understand the bible.

 

[Josiah]

You imply only those who choose to believe save themselves. You need to study Luther's bondage of the will in this matter.

@1689Dave

Try actually READING this. Read the words (those things formed by black letters).


ABSURD!


No. Over and over and over and over again.... many times over the past 8 weeks... I have stated that I REJECT, REPUDIATE and DENOUNCE - as heresy - that any unregerate unbeliever choose anything whatsoever involving their personal justification. Anyone with eyes and can read knows this. Indeed, I have stated repeatedly - in dozens of posts to you - that I reject and repudiate and denounce your insistence that if faith is involved in personal justification ERGO that's works-rightouseness because, as I've hold you many, many times, I reject that faith is a gift of self to self but is only, solely, exclusively, totally and completely the work and gift of God (exactly as Scripture states - and I've quoted those verses to you many times).

You have been told, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER, IN POST AFTER POST, FOR WEEKS, that I hold that personal justification is 100% the work and gift of God. The Cross and faith are totally, absolutely, completely, wholly the work and gift of God. But you MUST ignore this and impose your Pelagianism on us, for the fallacy of your apologetic to have any legs at all, you have to made us Pelagianists like you.

It's YOU insisting that if faith is involved, then works-righteousness and "free will" are involved. You have been consistently repudiated your heresy. I hold that EVERYTHING involved with personal justification is 100% the work and gift of God.


Here's God's view:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true. But you have not one Scripture that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved (not even a mention of faith). Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification. And if we mention faith, you either ignore this or impose your Pelagianism on us, insisting that faith is not the work or gift of God but is the "free choice" of unregenerate, atheists unbelievers, something they create and give to self.

And I have quoted Ephesians 2:8 to you MANY, MANY, MANY times to repudiate your view that faith is something the unregenerate atheist creates and gives to self. NO! It is the gift of God. You keep disagreeing


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification. BOTH the Cross and faith are necessary; BOTH are fully, completely, totally, absolutely, 100% the work and gift of God. Just as the Bible states. I have posted this to you DOZENS and DOZENS of times.






.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave

Try actually READING this. Read the words (those things formed by black letters).


ABSURD!


No. Over and over and over and over again.... many times over the past 8 weeks... I have stated that I REJECT, REPUDIATE and DENOUNCE - as heresy - that any unregerate unbeliever choose anything whatsoever involving their personal justification. Anyone with eyes and can read knows this. Indeed, I have stated repeatedly - in dozens of posts to you - that I reject and repudiate and denounce your insistence that if faith is involved in personal justification ERGO that's works-rightouseness because, as I've hold you many, many times, I reject that faith is a gift of self to self but is only, solely, exclusively, totally and completely the work and gift of God (exactly as Scripture states - and I've quoted those verses to you many times).

You have been told, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER, IN POST AFTER POST, FOR WEEKS, that I hold that personal justification is 100% the work and gift of God. The Cross and faith are totally, absolutely, completely, wholly the work and gift of God. But you MUST ignore this and impose your Pelagianism on us, for the fallacy of your apologetic to have any legs at all, you have to made us Pelagianists like you.

It's YOU insisting that if faith is involved, then works-righteousness and "free will" are involved. You have been consistently repudiated your heresy. I hold that EVERYTHING involved with personal justification is 100% the work and gift of God.


Here's God's view:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true. But you have not one Scripture that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved (not even a mention of faith). Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification. And if we mention faith, you either ignore this or impose your Pelagianism on us, insisting that faith is not the work or gift of God but is the "free choice" of unregenerate, atheists unbelievers, something they create and give to self.

And I have quoted Ephesians 2:8 to you MANY, MANY, MANY times to repudiate your view that faith is something the unregenerate atheist creates and gives to self. NO! It is the gift of God. You keep disagreeing


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification. BOTH the Cross and faith are necessary; BOTH are fully, completely, totally, absolutely, 100% the work and gift of God. Just as the Bible states. I have posted this to you DOZENS and DOZENS of times.






.

Universal atonement doesn't save anyone. This means the person must save themselves with some form of choice. I think you would say by choosing not to resist.

 

[Josiah]

Universal atonement doesn't save anyone.

@1689Dave


No one said it did.
This you have been told OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, in post after post, in numerous threads, for weeks now. Can you read?


Here's our view: JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE. That's the view.
Can you read those 5 words?
It is the mere verbatim ECHO of a number of Scriptures that states those exact words.
No one here - not one - has claimed that THAT ALONE results in personal justification (that's your position, NOT ours)
We have told you that FAITH also is essential; the Cross without faith does NOT result in salvation.


You have been told this by several here - over and over and and over and over - in dozens and dozens of posts, in a great many different threads. For weeks. Can you read?

Your only argument is to impose your Pelagianism upon us, insisting that if faith is involved (as God says it is) then that makes us synergistic, works-rightousness, free-will Baptists. But we have repeatedly repudiated your Pelagianism, insisting that faith (like the Cross) is 100%, totally, completely, absolutely, wholly, the work and gift of God (man supplying not 0.00000000000000000000000% of it). We've quoted Scripture to you to show God is stating exactly what we are but you've ignored that too.


Here's God's view:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true. But you have not one Scripture that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved (not even a mention of faith). Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification. And if we mention faith, you either ignore this or impose your Pelagianism on us, insisting that faith is not the work or gift of God but is the "free choice" of unregenerate, atheists unbelievers, something they create and give to self.

And I have quoted Ephesians 2:8 to you MANY, MANY, MANY times to repudiate your view that faith is something the unregenerate atheist creates and gives to self. NO! It is the gift of God. You keep disagreeing


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification. BOTH the Cross and faith are necessary; BOTH are fully, completely, totally, absolutely, 100% the work and gift of God. Just as the Bible states. I have posted this to you DOZENS and DOZENS of times.




.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


No one said it did.
This you have been told OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, in post after post, in numerous threads, for weeks now. Can you read?


Here's our view: JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE. That's the view.
Can you read those 5 words?
It is the mere verbatim ECHO of a number of Scriptures that states those exact words.
No one here - not one - has claimed that THAT ALONE results in personal justification (that's your position, NOT ours)
We have told you that FAITH also is essential; the Cross without faith does NOT result in salvation.


You have been told this by several here - over and over and and over and over - in dozens and dozens of posts, in a great many different threads.

Your only argument is to impose your Pelagianism upon us, insisting that if faith is involved (as God says it is) then that makes us synergistic, works-rightousness, free-will Baptists. But we have repeatedly repudiated your Pelagianism, insisting that faith (like the Cross) is 100%, totally, completely, absolutely, wholly, the work and gift of God (man supplying not 0.00000000000000000000000% of it). We've quoted Scripture to you to show God is stating exactly what we are but you've ignored that too.


Here's God's view:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


We know you disagree with God here, insisting the exact opposite is true. But you have not one Scripture that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few."



And here's God's view about faith and it's importance to personal justification:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)


But you disagree; your foundational apologetic is that if Christ died for all (as God says) then all are saved (not even a mention of faith). Your view: If Jesus died for all then all have personal justification. And if we mention faith, you either ignore this or impose your Pelagianism on us, insisting that faith is not the work or gift of God but is the "free choice" of unregenerate, atheists unbelievers, something they create and give to self.

And I have quoted Ephesians 2:8 to you MANY, MANY, MANY times to repudiate your view that faith is something the unregenerate atheist creates and gives to self. NO! It is the gift of God. You keep disagreeing


Yes, Jesus died for all exactly as the Bible so often, verbatim states. But faith is not given to all - and that is essential for personal justification. BOTH the Cross and faith are necessary; BOTH are fully, completely, totally, absolutely, 100% the work and gift of God. Just as the Bible states. I have posted this to you DOZENS and DOZENS of times.




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Universal Atonement is Pelagianism, dependent on free will. You are stuck here and cannot escape it. Think of it as Luther's "Full Nelson"