Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

1689Dave

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Correct.

If you are right and Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown FEW, then odds are you are wasting your time. And when you tell others there is forgiveness for them, you are being dishonest because according to you, it probably is NOT (Jesus likely did not die for them, there is no Gospel for them, there is no eternal life for them since Jesus never died for them).

Dave, His work on the Cross is conveyed to us not magically but by faith. Without faith, there is not personal justification. Faith trusts/relies... apprehends/applies the Cross FOR US to us. You are wrong when you INSIST (over and over and over) that if Jesus died for all then all are saved; all that matters is Christ's Cross, faith is nothing and matters not at all. No, you are wrong - as all of us have been telling you for weeks, you calling us Pelagians for saying that and quoting Scriptures that STATE faith is essential.

Friend, you are working HARD to deny the role of faith. You keep insisting - over and over and over, ad nausium - that faith is irreleveant, moot, a joke, unnecessary. You keep insisting "If Jesus died for all then all are saved" repudiating any role for faith, any need for faith, so that whether one denies him and spits in His face or trust/apprehends the Cross for them matters not at all. Every time we bring up faith, you impose your Pelagianism (or what you THINK is Pelagianism) on us: that if faith is involve, then works-rightouseness and synergism is involved because you PASSIONATELY disagree with all us here that faith is NOT our doing but is the work and gift of God ALONE. You reject that, insist that faith is the work of fallen, unregenerate, atheistic unbelief and that dead self creates and gives to self. When we disagree with you (which we all have COUNTLESS times ) you insist we are free-will "works righteousness" because faith is not the work of God but of dead sinners. You ARE wrong about that, even if you INSIST it's we who are wrong on that point.



,
Faith as a condition for salvation is not saving faith. It is a work of the flesh that cannot save. Only those God saves have faith as the evidence He saved them.
 

Lamb

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Faith as a condition for salvation is not saving faith. It is a work of the flesh that cannot save. Only those God saves have faith as the evidence He saved them.

You seem to have a totally different definition of what faith is than other Christians.
 

1689Dave

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You seem to have a totally different definition of what faith is than other Christians.
You are probably right. Here's what the bible says:


What Faith is.

“Now faith is the substance [hypostasis] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)

Notice that the word substance is the same word used for person when speaking of God in Hebrews 1:3.

[Jesus] “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person [hypostasis], and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” (Hebrews 1:3)

So biblical faith relates to things not seen in the same way Jesus relates to God who also is not seen. He is the express image of God just as faith is the express image of what we pray for.

Faith is not what many assume it to be. This proves that faith is not of human origin. It is a supernatural gift that God produces as a fruit of the Holy Spirit in us as evidence of what our belief rests on. In essence you know God saved you if He gave you faith in the matter.

It is evidence of things not seen. Human faith cannot provide this assurance because you can cancel it at will. But it is not biblical faith. Human faith might give the Gospel or Honest Charlie the benefit of the doubt at the car lot. But it is not biblical faith, and cannot save.



Biblical faith causes you to believe, based on the evidence it provides.



Faith = 58.1 ὑπόστασιςa, εως f: the essential or basic nature of an entity—‘substance, nature, essence, real being.’ ὃς ὢν … χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ ‘who is … the exact representation of his real being’ or ‘… nature’ He 1:3. In some languages there is no ready lexical equivalent of ‘real being’ or ‘nature.’ Therefore, one may express this concept in He 1:3 as ‘who is … just like what he really is.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 584). New York: United Bible Societies.
 
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MoreCoffee

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est autem fides sperandorum substantia rerum argumentum non parentum
Now, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not apparent.
῎Εστι δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων.

One ought to be careful to avoid building a doctrine out of one verse.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for - On the general nature of faith, see the notes on Mar 16:16. The margin here is, “ground or confidence.” There is scarcely any verse of the New Testament more important than this, for it states what is the nature of all true faith, and is the only definition of it which is attempted in the Scriptures. Eternal life depends on the existence and exercise of faith Mar 16:16, and hence, the importance of an accurate understanding of its nature. The word rendered “substance” - ὑπόστασις hupostasis - occurs in the New Testament only in the following places. In 2Co 9:4; 2Co 11:17; Heb 3:14, where it is rendered “confident” and “confidence;” and in Heb 1:3, where it is rendered “person,” and in the passage before us; compare the notes on Heb 1:3. Prof. Stuart renders it here “confidence;” Chrysostom, “Faith gives reality or substance to things hoped for.”​
The word properly means “that which is placed under” (Germ. Unterstellen); then “ground, basis, foundation, support.” Then it means also “reality, substance, existence,” in contradistinction from what is unreal, imaginary, or deceptive (täuschung). “Passow.” It seems to me, therefore, that the word here has reference to something which imparts reality in the view of the mind to those things which are not seen, and which serves to distinguish them from those things which are unreal and illusive. It is what enables us to feel and act as if they were real, or which causes them to exert an influence over us as if we saw them. Faith does this on all other subjects as well as religion. A belief that there is such a place as London or Calcutta, leads us to act as if this were so, if we have occasion to go to either; a belief that money may be made in a certain undertaking, leads people to act as if this were so; a belief in the veracity of another leads us to act as if this were so. As long as the faith continues, whether it be well-founded or not, it gives all the force of reality to what is believed. We feel and act just as if it were so, or as if we saw the object before our eyes. This, I think, is the clear meaning here. We do not see the things of eternity. We do not see God, or heaven, or the angels, or the redeemed in glory, or the crowns of victory, or the harps of praise; but we have faith in them, and this leads us to act as if we saw them. And this is, undoubtedly, the fact in regard to all who live by faith and who are fairly under its influence.​
Of things hoped for - In heaven. Faith gives them reality in the view of the mind. The Christian hopes to be admitted into heaven; to be raised up in the last day from the slumbers of the tomb, to be made perfectly free from sin; to be everlastingly happy. Under the influence of faith he allows these things to control his mind as if they were a most affecting reality.​
The evidence of things not seen - Of the existence of God; of heaven; of angels; of the glories of the world suited for the redeemed. The word rendered “evidence” - ἔλεγχος elengchos - occurs in the New Testament only in this place and in 2Ti 3:16, where it is rendered “reproof.” It means properly proof, or means of proving, to wit, evidence; then proof which convinces another of error or guilt; then vindication, or defense; then summary or contents; see “Passow.” The idea of “evidence” which goes to demonstrate the thing under consideration, or which is adapted to produce “conviction” in the mind, seems to be the elementary idea in the word. So when a proposition is demonstrated; when a man is arraigned and evidence is furnished of his guilt, or when he establishes his innocence; or when one by argument refutes his adversaries, the idea of “convincing argument” enters into the use of the word in each case.​
This, I think, is clearly the meaning of the word here. “Faith in the divine declarations answers all the purposes of a convincing argument, or is itself a convincing argument to the mind, of the real existence of those things which are not seen.” But is it a good argument? Is it rational to rely on such a means of being convinced? Is mere “faith” a consideration which should ever convince a rational mind? The infidel says “no;” and we know there may be a faith which is no argument of the truth of what is believed. But when a man who has never seen it believes that there is such a place as London, his belief in the numerous testimonies respecting it which he has heard and read is to his mind a good and rational proof of its existence, and he would act on that belief without hesitation. When a son credits the declaration or the promise of a father who has never deceived him, and acts as though that declaration and promise were true, his faith is to him a ground of conviction and of action, and he will act as if these things were so.​
In like manner the Christian believes what God says. He has never seen heaven; he has never seen an angel; he has never seen the Redeemer; he has never seen a body raised from the grave. “But he has evidence which is satisfactory to his mind that God has spoken on these subjects,” and his very nature prompts him to confide in the declarations of his Creator. Those declarations are to his mind more convincing proof than anything else would be. They are more conclusive evidence than would be the deductions of his own reason; far better and more rational than all the reasonings and declarations of the infidel to the contrary. He feels and acts, therefore, as if these things were so - for his faith in the declarations of God has convinced him that they are so - The object of the apostle, in this chapter, is not to illustrate the nature of what is called “saving faith,” but to show the power of “unwavering confidence in God” in sustaining the soul, especially in times of trial; and particularly in leading us to act in view of promises and of things not seen as if they were so. “Saving faith” is the same kind of confidence directed to the Messiah - the Lord Jesus - as the Saviour of the soul.​
(Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible.)

Albert Barnes was a Presbyterian minister.
 

1689Dave

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est autem fides sperandorum substantia rerum argumentum non parentum
Now, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not apparent.
῎Εστι δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων.

One ought to be careful to avoid building a doctrine out of one verse.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for - On the general nature of faith, see the notes on Mar 16:16. The margin here is, “ground or confidence.” There is scarcely any verse of the New Testament more important than this, for it states what is the nature of all true faith, and is the only definition of it which is attempted in the Scriptures. Eternal life depends on the existence and exercise of faith Mar 16:16, and hence, the importance of an accurate understanding of its nature. The word rendered “substance” - ὑπόστασις hupostasis - occurs in the New Testament only in the following places. In 2Co 9:4; 2Co 11:17; Heb 3:14, where it is rendered “confident” and “confidence;” and in Heb 1:3, where it is rendered “person,” and in the passage before us; compare the notes on Heb 1:3. Prof. Stuart renders it here “confidence;” Chrysostom, “Faith gives reality or substance to things hoped for.”​
The word properly means “that which is placed under” (Germ. Unterstellen); then “ground, basis, foundation, support.” Then it means also “reality, substance, existence,” in contradistinction from what is unreal, imaginary, or deceptive (täuschung). “Passow.” It seems to me, therefore, that the word here has reference to something which imparts reality in the view of the mind to those things which are not seen, and which serves to distinguish them from those things which are unreal and illusive. It is what enables us to feel and act as if they were real, or which causes them to exert an influence over us as if we saw them. Faith does this on all other subjects as well as religion. A belief that there is such a place as London or Calcutta, leads us to act as if this were so, if we have occasion to go to either; a belief that money may be made in a certain undertaking, leads people to act as if this were so; a belief in the veracity of another leads us to act as if this were so. As long as the faith continues, whether it be well-founded or not, it gives all the force of reality to what is believed. We feel and act just as if it were so, or as if we saw the object before our eyes. This, I think, is the clear meaning here. We do not see the things of eternity. We do not see God, or heaven, or the angels, or the redeemed in glory, or the crowns of victory, or the harps of praise; but we have faith in them, and this leads us to act as if we saw them. And this is, undoubtedly, the fact in regard to all who live by faith and who are fairly under its influence.​
Of things hoped for - In heaven. Faith gives them reality in the view of the mind. The Christian hopes to be admitted into heaven; to be raised up in the last day from the slumbers of the tomb, to be made perfectly free from sin; to be everlastingly happy. Under the influence of faith he allows these things to control his mind as if they were a most affecting reality.​
The evidence of things not seen - Of the existence of God; of heaven; of angels; of the glories of the world suited for the redeemed. The word rendered “evidence” - ἔλεγχος elengchos - occurs in the New Testament only in this place and in 2Ti 3:16, where it is rendered “reproof.” It means properly proof, or means of proving, to wit, evidence; then proof which convinces another of error or guilt; then vindication, or defense; then summary or contents; see “Passow.” The idea of “evidence” which goes to demonstrate the thing under consideration, or which is adapted to produce “conviction” in the mind, seems to be the elementary idea in the word. So when a proposition is demonstrated; when a man is arraigned and evidence is furnished of his guilt, or when he establishes his innocence; or when one by argument refutes his adversaries, the idea of “convincing argument” enters into the use of the word in each case.​
This, I think, is clearly the meaning of the word here. “Faith in the divine declarations answers all the purposes of a convincing argument, or is itself a convincing argument to the mind, of the real existence of those things which are not seen.” But is it a good argument? Is it rational to rely on such a means of being convinced? Is mere “faith” a consideration which should ever convince a rational mind? The infidel says “no;” and we know there may be a faith which is no argument of the truth of what is believed. But when a man who has never seen it believes that there is such a place as London, his belief in the numerous testimonies respecting it which he has heard and read is to his mind a good and rational proof of its existence, and he would act on that belief without hesitation. When a son credits the declaration or the promise of a father who has never deceived him, and acts as though that declaration and promise were true, his faith is to him a ground of conviction and of action, and he will act as if these things were so.​
In like manner the Christian believes what God says. He has never seen heaven; he has never seen an angel; he has never seen the Redeemer; he has never seen a body raised from the grave. “But he has evidence which is satisfactory to his mind that God has spoken on these subjects,” and his very nature prompts him to confide in the declarations of his Creator. Those declarations are to his mind more convincing proof than anything else would be. They are more conclusive evidence than would be the deductions of his own reason; far better and more rational than all the reasonings and declarations of the infidel to the contrary. He feels and acts, therefore, as if these things were so - for his faith in the declarations of God has convinced him that they are so - The object of the apostle, in this chapter, is not to illustrate the nature of what is called “saving faith,” but to show the power of “unwavering confidence in God” in sustaining the soul, especially in times of trial; and particularly in leading us to act in view of promises and of things not seen as if they were so. “Saving faith” is the same kind of confidence directed to the Messiah - the Lord Jesus - as the Saviour of the soul.​
(Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible.)

Albert Barnes was a Presbyterian minister.
It's nice you found a Protestant explanation. You'll never hear it from the Pope.
 

MoreCoffee

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It's nice you found a Protestant explanation. You'll never hear it from the Pope.
For that one is duly thankful.

May God be praised that pope Francis hasn't spent his time replying to posts in this forum.

It would be nice if your post responded to the comments offered by Albert Barnes. Perhaps you'll wriite one that does?
 

1689Dave

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For that one is duly thankful.

May God be praised that pope Francis hasn't spent his time replying to posts in this forum.
Luther took him out of the way Spiritually long ago. Also Napoleon Physically most recently. How do you justify his killing of a million + in the Spanish Inquisition for merely disagreeing with him? Do you think Hitler was bad?
 

MoreCoffee

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est autem fides sperandorum substantia rerum argumentum non parentum
Now, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not apparent.
῎Εστι δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων.

One ought to be careful to avoid building a doctrine out of one verse.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for - On the general nature of faith, see the notes on Mar 16:16. The margin here is, “ground or confidence.” There is scarcely any verse of the New Testament more important than this, for it states what is the nature of all true faith, and is the only definition of it which is attempted in the Scriptures. Eternal life depends on the existence and exercise of faith Mar 16:16, and hence, the importance of an accurate understanding of its nature. The word rendered “substance” - ὑπόστασις hupostasis - occurs in the New Testament only in the following places. In 2Co 9:4; 2Co 11:17; Heb 3:14, where it is rendered “confident” and “confidence;” and in Heb 1:3, where it is rendered “person,” and in the passage before us; compare the notes on Heb 1:3. Prof. Stuart renders it here “confidence;” Chrysostom, “Faith gives reality or substance to things hoped for.”​
The word properly means “that which is placed under” (Germ. Unterstellen); then “ground, basis, foundation, support.” Then it means also “reality, substance, existence,” in contradistinction from what is unreal, imaginary, or deceptive (täuschung). “Passow.” It seems to me, therefore, that the word here has reference to something which imparts reality in the view of the mind to those things which are not seen, and which serves to distinguish them from those things which are unreal and illusive. It is what enables us to feel and act as if they were real, or which causes them to exert an influence over us as if we saw them. Faith does this on all other subjects as well as religion. A belief that there is such a place as London or Calcutta, leads us to act as if this were so, if we have occasion to go to either; a belief that money may be made in a certain undertaking, leads people to act as if this were so; a belief in the veracity of another leads us to act as if this were so. As long as the faith continues, whether it be well-founded or not, it gives all the force of reality to what is believed. We feel and act just as if it were so, or as if we saw the object before our eyes. This, I think, is the clear meaning here. We do not see the things of eternity. We do not see God, or heaven, or the angels, or the redeemed in glory, or the crowns of victory, or the harps of praise; but we have faith in them, and this leads us to act as if we saw them. And this is, undoubtedly, the fact in regard to all who live by faith and who are fairly under its influence.​
Of things hoped for - In heaven. Faith gives them reality in the view of the mind. The Christian hopes to be admitted into heaven; to be raised up in the last day from the slumbers of the tomb, to be made perfectly free from sin; to be everlastingly happy. Under the influence of faith he allows these things to control his mind as if they were a most affecting reality.​
The evidence of things not seen - Of the existence of God; of heaven; of angels; of the glories of the world suited for the redeemed. The word rendered “evidence” - ἔλεγχος elengchos - occurs in the New Testament only in this place and in 2Ti 3:16, where it is rendered “reproof.” It means properly proof, or means of proving, to wit, evidence; then proof which convinces another of error or guilt; then vindication, or defense; then summary or contents; see “Passow.” The idea of “evidence” which goes to demonstrate the thing under consideration, or which is adapted to produce “conviction” in the mind, seems to be the elementary idea in the word. So when a proposition is demonstrated; when a man is arraigned and evidence is furnished of his guilt, or when he establishes his innocence; or when one by argument refutes his adversaries, the idea of “convincing argument” enters into the use of the word in each case.​
This, I think, is clearly the meaning of the word here. “Faith in the divine declarations answers all the purposes of a convincing argument, or is itself a convincing argument to the mind, of the real existence of those things which are not seen.” But is it a good argument? Is it rational to rely on such a means of being convinced? Is mere “faith” a consideration which should ever convince a rational mind? The infidel says “no;” and we know there may be a faith which is no argument of the truth of what is believed. But when a man who has never seen it believes that there is such a place as London, his belief in the numerous testimonies respecting it which he has heard and read is to his mind a good and rational proof of its existence, and he would act on that belief without hesitation. When a son credits the declaration or the promise of a father who has never deceived him, and acts as though that declaration and promise were true, his faith is to him a ground of conviction and of action, and he will act as if these things were so.​
In like manner the Christian believes what God says. He has never seen heaven; he has never seen an angel; he has never seen the Redeemer; he has never seen a body raised from the grave. “But he has evidence which is satisfactory to his mind that God has spoken on these subjects,” and his very nature prompts him to confide in the declarations of his Creator. Those declarations are to his mind more convincing proof than anything else would be. They are more conclusive evidence than would be the deductions of his own reason; far better and more rational than all the reasonings and declarations of the infidel to the contrary. He feels and acts, therefore, as if these things were so - for his faith in the declarations of God has convinced him that they are so - The object of the apostle, in this chapter, is not to illustrate the nature of what is called “saving faith,” but to show the power of “unwavering confidence in God” in sustaining the soul, especially in times of trial; and particularly in leading us to act in view of promises and of things not seen as if they were so. “Saving faith” is the same kind of confidence directed to the Messiah - the Lord Jesus - as the Saviour of the soul.​
(Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible.)

Albert Barnes was a Presbyterian minister.
Catholic priest, Fr Haydock, concerning Hebrews 11:1, writes:
All this chapter is a commendation and recommendation of faith, which is the substance [Substantia, Greek: upostasis, subsistentia.] of things hoped for, giving as it were a substance in our minds to such things as we are in hopes and in expectation of hereafter, and making them present to us before they come to pass. --- It is also a sure conviction [Argumentum, Greek: elegchos. Convictio, ostensio. It does not seem well translated evidence, as by the Protestants and Mr. N. because faith is an obscure knowledge, though it be the most certain, because of the infallible authority of God, who has revealed those obscure mysteries.] of things that appear not. For when God has revealed things, and we believe them upon the divine and infallible authority of the revealer, we have a greater certainty of them than any demonstration can afford us. By this virtue of faith, they of old, our forefathers, obtained [Greek: Emarturethesan, testimonium consecuti sunt. This expression, which is repeated ver. 4, 5, and 39, signifies an approbation or commendation.] a testimony from God that their actions were pleasing to him. (Witham) --- Faith is the basis, the foundation supporting hope; for unless there be faith, there cannot possibly be any hope. (Menochius)​
 

1689Dave

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Catholic priest, Fr Haydock, concerning Hebrews 11:1, writes:
All this chapter is a commendation and recommendation of faith, which is the substance [Substantia, Greek: upostasis, subsistentia.] of things hoped for, giving as it were a substance in our minds to such things as we are in hopes and in expectation of hereafter, and making them present to us before they come to pass. --- It is also a sure conviction [Argumentum, Greek: elegchos. Convictio, ostensio. It does not seem well translated evidence, as by the Protestants and Mr. N. because faith is an obscure knowledge, though it be the most certain, because of the infallible authority of God, who has revealed those obscure mysteries.] of things that appear not. For when God has revealed things, and we believe them upon the divine and infallible authority of the revealer, we have a greater certainty of them than any demonstration can afford us. By this virtue of faith, they of old, our forefathers, obtained [Greek: Emarturethesan, testimonium consecuti sunt. This expression, which is repeated ver. 4, 5, and 39, signifies an approbation or commendation.] a testimony from God that their actions were pleasing to him. (Witham) --- Faith is the basis, the foundation supporting hope; for unless there be faith, there cannot possibly be any hope. (Menochius)​
He might say you can tell when your prayers are in concert with God's predestined ends. Unless they are, you remain unanswered.
 

Albion

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Faith as a condition for salvation is not saving faith. It is a work of the flesh that cannot save. Only those God saves have faith as the evidence He saved them.
All right. Then we have established that you have substituted your own theory about Faith which denies the Biblical meaning of Faith.

At the least, this may help explain why you refuse to be educated on what's wrong with your predestinarian views about atonement.

However, you could have simply said so up front rather than wasting everyone's time and energy by dancing around the issue as though you didn't know what Christians believe about Faith and the Bible teaches about it.
 

Nic

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Another way to put it is, are you saved because you chose to believe? Or did you spontaneously believe because you are saved? In view of this, I believe if a person must choose to believe, it is because they don't believe. But if you believe spontaneously, apart from any act of the will, it is a reaction to the new birth of your heart that causes you to believe.

This also plays into the theory of Universal Atonement that doesn't save a single soul. It supposedly clears the way for people to save themselves upon choosing to believe or practice Sacradolalism. Limited Atonement on the other hand demolishes your sin so God can justly save you by sending His Spirit into your heart causing you to believe.

Whoever believes has eternal life. This means Christ demolished your sins on the Cross so God could justly save you. Your spontaneous faith is evidence of this.
You omitted a category or more. 🙂
 

Josiah

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You are ignoring all the verses that say he did not.


We're still waiting (it's been nearly 500 years already)...

Just quote for us the verse or verses that state in actual, real words on the page: "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some."

You've had over 500 opportunities to state that. Those who share your view have had nearly 500 years. So far... crickets.

We have, on the other hand, have quoted several that verbatim, in real honest-to-goodness words, right there in black-and-white, STATE "Jesus died for all."



.
 

Josiah

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Another way to put it is, are you saved because you chose to believe? Or did you spontaneously believe because you are saved?

Those aren't the only options. Both of those are wrong.

Faith is not a choice, it is the work and gift of God.

IF by "salvation" you mean personal justification in the narrow sense... "born again" as some Protestants put it.... then TWO things are essential - the work of Christ who alone does this saving via His life, death and resurrection for us AND also faith. Both the work and gift of God.

Frankly, soteriology is not as simple or limited as you are forcing it to be. And there IS mystery in EXACTLY how and when God accomplishes all this - especially in the reality of an individual person. And remember, questions don't prove anything; questions are not the basis of theology.

Scripture does not set this in chronological order in the sense you are trying to impose. Faith in this sense (it has other aspects too) apprehends or applies or relies on a reality (Christ) and this conveys His benefits to us. Now BOTH are equally His doing and gift. It is possible that personal justification happens AFTER the gift of faith is given (faith needed to apprehend it) OR absolutely concurrent with it (the identical same time) or even that in some sense faith follows this. There are those who even theorized that the Holy Spirit enters the dead and changes their will so that their will actually accepts this: first giving life and then that life giving faith. But Scripture doesn't say... and frankly I suspect the reason is that it doesn't matter: Christ is our SAVIOR, that is applied to the individual via the gift of faith. Exactly how God does all that (especially what chronological order), well.... you are theorizing about the unknown.


This also plays into the theory of Universal Atonement that doesn't save a single soul. It supposedly clears the way for people to save themselves

Absurd.

Universal Atonement is simply the echo of what Scripture so often, literally, flat out, right on the page in black-and-white words all can see, verbatim STATES "Jesus died for all people." That's it. That's all. That's the view. It just ECHOS the words God put on the page of His Book. Simple. It has been affirmed by the Early Church, declared doctrine at a Council in the 9th Century,and is embraced by every church and faith community except for a handful of very radical Calvinist groups.

Limited Atonement is an invention of radical, latter-day Calvinist extremists, insisting that all those Scriptures are not to be believed. That Scripture instead states that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few. But in nearly 500 years, none of them has found that verse they insist exists.



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1689Dave

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Those aren't the only options. Both of those are wrong.

Faith is not a choice, it is the work and gift of God.

IF by "salvation" you mean personal justification in the narrow sense... "born again" as some Protestants put it.... then TWO things are essential - the work of Christ who alone does this saving via His life, death and resurrection for us AND also faith. Both the work and gift of God.

Frankly, soteriology is not as simple or limited as you are forcing it to be. And there IS mystery in EXACTLY how and when God accomplishes all this - especially in the reality of an individual person. And remember, questions don't prove anything; questions are not the basis of theology.

Scripture does not set this in chronological order in the sense you are trying to impose. Faith in this sense (it has other aspects too) apprehends or applies or relies on a reality (Christ) and this conveys His benefits to us. Now BOTH are equally His doing and gift. It is possible that personal justification happens AFTER the gift of faith is given (faith needed to apprehend it) OR absolutely concurrent with it (the identical same time) or even that in some sense faith follows this. There are those who even theorized that the Holy Spirit enters the dead and changes their will so that their will actually accepts this: first giving life and then that life giving faith. But Scripture doesn't say... and frankly I suspect the reason is that it doesn't matter: Christ is our SAVIOR, that is applied to the individual via the gift of faith. Exactly how God does all that (especially what chronological order), well.... you are theorizing about the unknown.




Absurd.

Universal Atonement is simply the echo of what Scripture so often, literally, flat out, right on the page in black-and-white words all can see, verbatim STATES "Jesus died for all people." That's it. That's all. That's the view. It just ECHOS the words God put on the page of His Book. Simple. It has been affirmed by the Early Church, declared doctrine at a Council in the 9th Century,and is embraced by every church and faith community except for a handful of very radical Calvinist groups.

Limited Atonement is an invention of radical, latter-day Calvinist extremists, insisting that all those Scriptures are not to be believed. That Scripture instead states that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few. But in nearly 500 years, none of them has found that verse they insist exists.



.
You select only scriptures that you can twist into supporting your claims. You cannot balance scripture yet, but maybe someone you trust will set you straight.
 

1689Dave

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We're still waiting (it's been nearly 500 years already)...

Just quote for us the verse or verses that state in actual, real words on the page: "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some."

You've had over 500 opportunities to state that. Those who share your view have had nearly 500 years. So far... crickets.

We have, on the other hand, have quoted several that verbatim, in real honest-to-goodness words, right there in black-and-white, STATE "Jesus died for all."



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I posted a passage you still cannot twist to your liking. Here it is again:

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.


“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)


“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

So, the reason the Pharisees did not believe, is because he did not die for them.
 

MoreCoffee

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You select only scriptures that you can twist into supporting your claims. You cannot balance scripture yet, but maybe someone you trust will set you straight.
Surely you jest!
 

MoreCoffee

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