Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
How come we never hear of people living in remote areas of the world which are not Christian and who have never met a missionary or read a pamphlet dealing with Christ who suddenly are convinced that he must be the one true God?
Peter speaks of them and my wife sometimes speaks of a tribe with Christian virtues. I can get more info if needed.

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:34–35 (KJV 1900)
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Peter speaks of them and my wife sometimes speaks of a tribe with Christian virtues. I can get more info if needed.

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:34–35 (KJV 1900)
Peter was speaking to people familiar with the God of the Jews. They had all the background necessary to understand about Jehovah God, the Messiah, etc.
 
Last edited:

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
??? It is the kind of exegesis that you prefer for your own postings, though. ;)

Peter was speaking to Jews. They had all the background necessary to understand about Jehovah God, the Messiah, etc.
He was saying Every Nation has born-again people who have not yet heard the gospel.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
He was saying Every Nation has born-again people who have not yet heard the gospel.
No, he's saying that it doesn't matter what nation the converts come from. God isn't a 'respecter of persons', meaning He's not exclusive to any particular race or nationality, so long as the converts believe in Christ. Jesus had already directed his Apostles to go into all nations, preach, and baptize, so here Peter is seen to be referring to that directive.
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
No, he's saying that it doesn't matter what nation the converts come from. God isn't a 'respecter of persons', meaning He's not exclusive to any particular race or nationality, so long as the converts believe in Christ. Jesus had already directed his Apostles to go into all nations, preach, and baptize, so here Peter is following up on that directive.
You must be born again before you can have faith. It is a fruit of the Spirit. These would not be acceptable by God apart from that. I experienced this firsthand when I was 20. I was not looking for any religion but on the way home one day I began experiencing the Fruit of the Spirit. This experience caused me to believe in Jesus and confess my sins. I did not go near any churches at that time because of their politics.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You must be born again before you can have faith. It is a fruit of the Spirit. These would not be acceptable by God apart from that. I experienced this firsthand when I was 20. I was not looking for any religion but on the way home one day I began experiencing the Fruit of the Spirit. This experience caused me to believe in Jesus and confess my sins. I did not go near any churches as a matter of practice.
I don't believe that. You were already aware of Christianity as everyone growing up in our society is.

That it may, more or less suddenly, have made sense to you is not what we were talking about.
 
Last edited:

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
I don't believe that. You were already aware of Christianity as everyone growing up in our society is.
I was but didn't believe it until then.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You cannot escape the fact that Universal Atonement demands salvation by works in order to succeed. This is Pelagianism.

You cannot escape the fact that....

1. Universal Atonement only echos EXACTLY what many Scriptures state, verbatim. Whereas your view, Limited Atonement, is not stated anywhere in Scripture.

2. Universal Atonement says EXACTLY (word for word) what the Bible repeatedly, boldly, clearly, undeniably states: Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people. It says NOTHING about we doing anything, for anything, about anything.



.
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
You cannot escape the fact that....

1. Universal Atonement only echos EXACTLY what many Scriptures state, verbatim. Whereas your view, Limited Atonement, is not stated anywhere in Scripture.

2. Universal Atonement says EXACTLY (word for word) what the Bible repeatedly, boldly, clearly, undeniably states: Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people. It says NOTHING about we doing anything, for anything, about anything.



.
Just as I thought. You are spiritually blind to the Limited Atonement verses. What good is it to present them and argue when you cannot grasp them?
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
33,202
Age
58
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
33,202
Age
58
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You cannot escape the fact that Universal Atonement demands salvation by works in order to succeed. This is Pelagianism.

Works are not involved in Universal Atonement as has been proven repeatedly to you. You can't prove that they do without rewriting a version of Universal Atonement that isn't fact.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
33,202
Age
58
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Faith without works is dead.

Works are what the Holy Spirit does through us once we have faith. It doesn't get us any closer to heaven, but were things planned for us, the faithful. We are not saved by works.
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
Works are not involved in Universal Atonement as has been proven repeatedly to you. You can't prove that they do without rewriting a version of Universal Atonement that isn't fact.
Dead faith is zero faith according to James.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
33,202
Age
58
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Dead faith is zero faith according to James.

This is a tangent. We'll stick to the thread and you can start a new one if you want to discuss works.
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
This is a tangent. We'll stick to the thread and you can start a new one if you want to discuss works.
So you even ban scripture to justify your view now?
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
33,202
Age
58
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
So you even ban scripture to justify your view now?

I don't ban scripture. I don't follow tangents in conversations when people can't back up their claims. Post a new thread instead for that new conversation.
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
I don't ban scripture. I don't follow tangents in conversations when people can't back up their claims. Post a new thread instead for that new conversation.
Tangents? Do you know a Lutheran who's initials are DA?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,368
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Another way to put it is, are you saved because you chose to believe? Or did you spontaneously believe because you are saved? In view of this, I believe if a person must choose to believe, it is because they don't believe. But if you believe spontaneously, apart from any act of the will, it is a reaction to the new birth of your heart that causes you to believe.

This also plays into the theory of Universal Atonement that doesn't save a single soul. It supposedly clears the way for people to save themselves upon choosing to believe or practice Sacradolalism. Limited Atonement on the other hand demolishes your sin so God can justly save you by sending His Spirit into your heart causing you to believe.

Whoever believes has eternal life. This means Christ demolished your sins on the Cross so God could justly save you. Your spontaneous faith is evidence of this.
I believe a person is saved first and then believes. 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,368
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
No matter how many threads you start, you are still wrong.


UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT teaches that Jesus died for all, for all people, for everyone.
Here are the verses:


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


LIMITED ATONEMENT teaches that Jesus died ONLY for an unknown FEW people.
Here are the verses


Crickets.... there are no verses that state that.



.
All them verses apply to the elect , the saved, the Church !
 
Top Bottom