Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

Lamb

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I believe a person is saved first and then believes. 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

How does a person save himself without believing first by grace through faith that comes from God?
 

Lamb

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Tangents? Do you know a Lutheran who's initials are DA?

I know many Lutherans...to whom are you referring? Is it someone you know online? And how does it pertain to the topic of this thread?

I'll tell you why I called you out on tangents, because LUTHER cautioned people to not follow tangents in discussions. Since I read that a decade ago, it really made sense to adhere to that.
 

1689Dave

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I know many Lutherans...to whom are you referring? Is it someone you know online? And how does it pertain to the topic of this thread?

I'll tell you why I called you out on tangents, because LUTHER cautioned people to not follow tangents in discussions. Since I read that a decade ago, it really made sense to adhere to that.
So you don't know him? Just checking.
 

shilohsfoal

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No matter how many threads you start, you are still wrong.


UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT teaches that Jesus died for all, for all people, for everyone.
Here are the verses:


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


LIMITED ATONEMENT teaches that Jesus died ONLY for an unknown FEW people.
Here are the verses


Crickets.... there are no verses that state that.

I excepted his sacrifice for me and made his soul an offering for my sin.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


Most people don't.
 

Lamb

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I excepted his sacrifice for me and made his soul an offering for my sin.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


Most people don't.

God had the Savior sacrificed as the offering for our sin. That's what the verse says. The way you stated your response is awkward sounding.
 

MoreCoffee

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Another way to put it is, are you saved because you chose to believe? Or did you spontaneously believe because you are saved? In view of this, I believe if a person must choose to believe, it is because they don't believe. But if you believe spontaneously, apart from any act of the will, it is a reaction to the new birth of your heart that causes you to believe.

This also plays into the theory of Universal Atonement that doesn't save a single soul. It supposedly clears the way for people to save themselves upon choosing to believe or practice Sacradolalism. Limited Atonement on the other hand demolishes your sin so God can justly save you by sending His Spirit into your heart causing you to believe.

Whoever believes has eternal life. This means Christ demolished your sins on the Cross so God could justly save you. Your spontaneous faith is evidence of this.
Does it matter - except for the purpose of formulating some theory in theology?
 

brightfame52

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How does a person save himself without believing first by grace through faith that comes from God?
Im sorry, I have the slightest ideal of what you talking about. Did I mention something about someone saving themselves ?
 

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Josiah

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Does it matter - except for the purpose of formulating some theory in theology?

@MoreCoffee


I think it does....

1. Scripture is SO clear on this. Over and over and over again. Boldly and verbatim saying Jesus died for all. IMO, it is very dangerous to insist that ALL these so clear Scriptures are just, well, wrong. A bad way to do theology. AND to insist the "all the other Scriptures say the opposite" when there are no Scriptures at all that say the opposite. Again, a very bad, dangerous and disingenuous way to do theology. Now, I'll admit, there CAN be issues where there seem to be differing things clearly proclaimed in Scripture - and then we need to sort that out, but here only ONE position is stated: Jesus died for all. There are no verses on this that say "not all" and "only some." So nothing to sort out.

2. There's also a very pastoral issue. How do I know Jesus is for ME? How do I know Jesus is gracious and merciful toward ME? How do I know that the Cross was for ME? For only one reason: It's for everyone, for all people, for all (as the Bible so boldly, verbatim says dozens of times). I can say to my neighbor, "Jesus died for you" and NOT be guessing or lying because Jesus died for everyone. I can quote John 3:16 and not have to say, "But the odds are He doesn't love you and He wasn't given for you." Get my point? When I trust in Christ, I don't have to wonder if I'm relying on a phantom, a ghost, a non-reality, something that isn't for me. I know it's for me.

There are theological discussions that can be a bit like "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin." But I don't think this is one of them. IMO.


Blessings to you. Glad to see you back!

And blessings on your Advent.

Josiah



.
 

MoreCoffee

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@MoreCoffee


I think it does....

1. Scripture is SO clear on this. Over and over and over again. Boldly and verbatim saying Jesus died for all. IMO, it is very dangerous to insist that ALL these so clear Scriptures are just, well, wrong. A bad way to do theology. AND to insist the "all the other Scriptures say the opposite" when there are no Scriptures at all that say the opposite. Again, a very bad, dangerous and disingenuous way to do theology. Now, I'll admit, there CAN be issues where there seem to be differing things clearly proclaimed in Scripture - and then we need to sort that out, but here only ONE position is stated: Jesus died for all. There are no verses on this that say "not all" and "only some." So nothing to sort out.

2. There's also a very pastoral issue. How do I know Jesus is for ME? How do I know Jesus is gracious and merciful toward ME? How do I know that the Cross was for ME? For only one reason: It's for everyone, for all people, for all (as the Bible so boldly, verbatim says dozens of times). I can say to my neighbor, "Jesus died for you" and NOT be guessing or lying because Jesus died for everyone. I can quote John 3:16 and not have to say, "But the odds are He doesn't love you and He wasn't given for you." Get my point? When I trust in Christ, I don't have to wonder if I'm relying on a phantom, a ghost, a non-reality, something that isn't for me. I know it's for me.

There are theological discussions that can be a bit like "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin." But I don't think this is one of them. IMO.


Blessings to you. Glad to see you back!

And blessings on your Advent.

Josiah
I agree with the proposition that scripture does say that Christ's work is for all. I agree that it is bad theology to deny it.
 

Joshua1Eight

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Your saved by works, and not by faith only
 

1689Dave

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@MoreCoffee


I think it does....

1. Scripture is SO clear on this. Over and over and over again. Boldly and verbatim saying Jesus died for all. IMO, it is very dangerous to insist that ALL these so clear Scriptures are just, well, wrong. A bad way to do theology. AND to insist the "all the other Scriptures say the opposite" when there are no Scriptures at all that say the opposite. Again, a very bad, dangerous and disingenuous way to do theology. Now, I'll admit, there CAN be issues where there seem to be differing things clearly proclaimed in Scripture - and then we need to sort that out, but here only ONE position is stated: Jesus died for all. There are no verses on this that say "not all" and "only some." So nothing to sort out.

2. There's also a very pastoral issue. How do I know Jesus is for ME? How do I know Jesus is gracious and merciful toward ME? How do I know that the Cross was for ME? For only one reason: It's for everyone, for all people, for all (as the Bible so boldly, verbatim says dozens of times). I can say to my neighbor, "Jesus died for you" and NOT be guessing or lying because Jesus died for everyone. I can quote John 3:16 and not have to say, "But the odds are He doesn't love you and He wasn't given for you." Get my point? When I trust in Christ, I don't have to wonder if I'm relying on a phantom, a ghost, a non-reality, something that isn't for me. I know it's for me.

There are theological discussions that can be a bit like "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin." But I don't think this is one of them. IMO.


Blessings to you. Glad to see you back!

And blessings on your Advent.

Josiah



.
It does not say Jesus died for all, because all are not saved. And Jesus never fails. He is God.
 

Lamb

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It does not say Jesus died for all, because all are not saved. And Jesus never fails. He is God.

Well Jesus didn't fail to die for all.
 

1689Dave

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Well Jesus didn't fail to die for all.
But his blood obviously did not save any. It says all that the father gives to him will come to him. Why would he waste his suffering and blood on the reprobate?
 

Albion

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Well Jesus didn't fail to die for all.

But his blood obviously did not save any.
Say WHAT? You've been arguing that Christ did save all of his Elect and that Faith has nothing to do with that process.

So now, you've taken to saying that the shedding of his blood didn't save anyone??
 

1689Dave

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Say WHAT? You've been arguing that Christ did save all of his Elect and that Faith has nothing to do with that process.

So now, you've taken to saying that the shedding of his blood didn't save anyone??
Relax, and try to comprehend what I've said. Christ died only for the elect. Not for every person ever born.
 

Albion

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Relax, and try to comprehend what I've said. Christ died only for the elect. Not for every person ever born.
You, my friend, are very confused. Or at least conflicted. Read back through what you've posted and you might see it.
 

Faith

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Relax, and try to comprehend what I've said. Christ died only for the elect. Not for every person ever born.
Who, pray tell are “the elect”?
 
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1689Dave

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Who, pray tell are “the elect”?
From the masses of wicked people born in Adam's fallen species, God chose to save some by having Christ pay for their sins on the cross. These he regards as legally sinless and deserving of salvation. having all their sins paid for. The way you can tell if you are among them is through faith. He only gives faith to those he chose to save. If you have biblical faith, it will become obvious. And you can rest assured of your salvation.
 

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Another way to put it is, are you saved because you chose to believe? Or did you spontaneously believe because you are saved? In view of this, I believe if a person must choose to believe, it is because they don't believe. But if you believe spontaneously, apart from any act of the will, it is a reaction to the new birth of your heart that causes you to believe.

This also plays into the theory of Universal Atonement that doesn't save a single soul. It supposedly clears the way for people to save themselves upon choosing to believe or practice Sacradolalism. Limited Atonement on the other hand demolishes your sin so God can justly save you by sending His Spirit into your heart causing you to believe.

Whoever believes has eternal life. This means Christ demolished your sins on the Cross so God could justly save you. Your spontaneous faith is evidence of this.
I am saved by grace through faith. God chose to save me before he made the world.
 
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