Jesus died for the sins of the world

[Josiah]

What you miss is that Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not a work of the flesh.

@1689Dave


NO!
I don't miss that, you do.


Your foundational apologetic is a question (how absurd of you!!!!!), the question you ask when you realize you don't have any Scripture to support your view, "If Jesus died for everyone then why aren't all saved?" Every time we bring up faith, you craftily just evade it OR (imposing your Pelagianism) insist that faith is a work of the fallen flesh and thus we're promoting works-righteousness.

We don't agree with you that faith is a work of the fallen flesh, we hold that (like the Cross), it is the work and gift of God. Just as the Bible verbatim, states. So, we agreeing with the many, many Scriptures that states that faith is essential to personal justification, we are not teaching works-righteousness we are agreeing with Scripture, echoing the exact words of Scripture, faith also must be present. We accept and echo Scriptures that state the Cross is the work and gift of God, faith is the work and gift of God.


Since we agree with Scripture that the divine gift of faith is needed, we are not saying the fallen supply either or both to self, we are echoing and believing what the Bible so clearly and verbatim states: The Cross is necessary, faith is necessary. Never does the Bible state "ONLY the Cross matters - faith is a joke." And NEVER does the Bible state, "ONLY faith matters - Christ is a joke." No. Scripture says the Cross is necessary, it says faith is necessary. BOTH are the work and gift of God.




.

 

[1689Dave]

NO! I don't miss that, you do.


Your foundational apologetic is a question (how absurd of you!!!!!), the question you ask when you realize you don't have any Scripture to support your view, "If Jesus died for everyone then why aren't all saved?" Every time we bring up faith, you craftily just evade it OR (imposing your Pelagianism) insist that faith is a work of the fallen flesh and thus we're promoting works-righteousness.

We don't agree with you that faith is a work of the fallen flesh, we hold that (like the Cross), it is the work and gift of God. Just as the Bible verbatim, states. So, we agreeing with the many, many Scriptures that states that faith is essential to personal justification, we are not teaching works-righteousness we are agreeing with Scripture, echoing the exact words of Scripture, faith also must be present. We accept and echo Scriptures that state the Cross is the work and gift of God, faith is the work and gift of God.


Since we agree with Scripture that the divine gift of faith is needed, we are not saying the fallen supply either or both to self, we are echoing and believing what the Bible so clearly and verbatim states: The Cross is necessary, faith is necessary. Never does the Bible state "ONLY the Cross matters - faith is a joke." And NEVER does the Bible state, "ONLY faith matters - Christ is a joke." No. Scripture says the Cross is necessary, it says faith is necessary. BOTH are the work and gift of God.




.

An act of the will = a work of the flesh. Ask Luther.

 

[1689Dave]

Faith is a gift from God. Salvation is by grace through faith. WHEN God gives faith, we trust that Jesus' death on the cross for the forgiveness of sins was enough.

It's "we we we we" and not God are our savior. You cannot smoke screen your way around it.

 

[Josiah]

@1689Dave
@brightfame52


Here's the actual John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

Here's your correction of John 3:16, "For God so loved only some unknown few that He gave His only begotten Son ONLY to them, that whether they have faith in Him or spit in His face and denounce Him, it don't matter because faith is irrelevant and those unknown persons won't perish but have everlasting life."


Here's the actual Ephesians 2:8, "“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Here's your correction of Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace only a few unknown persons have been saved by Christ, not because of faith because faith is irrelevant to personal justifiction (so go ahead and spit on Him) and because faith is the gift of self to self and thus is a good work of the unsaved."



Scripture says that the Cross is necessary for personal justification.
Scripture says that faith is necessary for personal justification.
Never does it state that ONLY one (and not the other) is necessary.



The Cross:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.

Now, where is the verse that states "No, Jesus did not die for all people but only, exclusively for some unknown few."



Faith:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)

Now, where is the verse that states, "Faith is moot and not necessary for personal justification" And "faith is the work of self and not the work or gift of God."


Dave, we are echoing exactly what the Bible states and what Christians have believed.

You are denouncing Scriptures and teaching the opposite is true. Not that you care.




.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


Here's the actual John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

Here's your correction of John 3:16, "For God so loved only some unknown few that He gave His only begotten Son ONLY to them, that whether they have faith in Him or spit in His face and denounce Him, it don't matter because faith is irrelevant and those unknown persons won't perish but have everlasting life."


Scripture says that the Cross is necessary for personal justification.
Scripture says that faith is necessary for personal justification.
Never does it state that ONLY one (and not the other) is necessary.



The Cross:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Faith:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

You are forcing an interpretation that ignores the rest of the Bible. Remember, Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in Jn. 10.

 

[brightfame52]

@brightfame52


Absurd.

Of course, there is one Savior - the Lord Jesus Christ - exactly as Scripture clearly and verbatim states.

Yes, His life and death and resurrection is how this salvation is gained. Just as Scripture clearly and verbatim states.

Yes, this is apprehended/applied to the individual by faith. Just as the Scriptures clearly and verbatim state.


Your error (actually, heresy) is that Jesus' death means ALL are personally justified - regardless of whether they have faith or not, whether they spit in His face and deny Him or trust in Him, no difference you insist. Dave does too with his foundational point of "If Jesus died for all then all are saved." Both of you commit the error or repudiating faith.

You reject all the clear, obvious, undeniable, verbatim, black-and-white statements of Scripture that Jesus died for all. Then you reject all the clear, obvious, undeniable, verbatim, black-and-white statement of Scripture that not only the Cross but also faith is essential for personal justification. Two repudiations of Scripture. And we all note: you have NOT ONE Scripture that says Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some unknown few... NOT ONE Scripture that states that if Christ died for you you are saved irregardless of whether you have faith.



.

Oh Yes, There is only One Saviour Isa 45:21


Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Your error (actually, heresy) is that Jesus' death means ALL are personally justified - regardless of whether they have faith or not

Now you resort to lying. Jesus death alone saved them He died for, and part of that Salvation He saves them with provides the Gift of Faith. As Saviour He gives them He died for both Faith and Repentance.

Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins

2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Thats what Jesus does as Saviour, and what He purchased with His Precious Blood and gives in His Salvation package.

So you told a lie on me, but I know you dont care, you want to make yourself look good and win a argument.

So again, you dont believe Jesus death saved anyone, you believe man saves himself by something he does.

 

[brightfame52]

josiah

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.

Now, where is the verse that states "No, Jesus did not die for all people but only, exclusively for some unknown few."

All these verses apply only to The Sheep or the Church that Christ is specifically said to die for Jn 10:11,15; Eph 5:25

 

[brightfame52]

Josiah

Faith:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)

Now, where is the verse that states, "Faith is moot and not necessary for personal justification" And "faith is the work of self and not the work or gift of God."

Faith is a evidence of spiritual life and its a Salvation blessing, its given to everyone Jesus saves by grace.

 

[Josiah]

Now you resort to lying.

Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins

2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

None of these Scriptures state that faith is irrelevant; that personal justification is ONLY, SOLELY, EXCLUSIVELY the result of Christ's death with faith being irrelevant, unnecessary and moot.

Jesus alone saves them He died for

I reject your repudiation of faith. There is no verse that states, "If Jesus died for you, you are personally justified regardless of whether you have faith or spit in face and repudiate him." We beleive that personal justification/salvation necessitates BOTH the Cross and faith, not either/or but both/and.

And I'm still waiting for your Scripture that states, "Jesus died NOT for everyone but ONLY for those whom will one day have faith." The "ONLY" being the absolutely necessary, essential word. Without that, I'm going with all the many, many, verbatim, word-for-word statements of Scripture, "Jesus died for all people."

Part of that salvation He saves them with provide the Gift of Faith

Yes, because faith is NOT irrelevant, personal justification is NOT ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY the result of the Cross.
We are not heretics or synergists or free-will Baptists, we are not teaching works-rightousness by indicating that faith also is essential because we hold that faith (like the Cross) is wholly God's work and gift.

You need to make up your mind: Here you agree with us that faith is the work and gift of God.... elsewhere you agree with Dave that it is the result of the fallen, unregenerate, atheistic unbliever creating faith on his own and giving it to himself, making personal justification synergistic and "works righteousness." Make up your mind.

As Saviour He gives them He died for both Faith and Repentance.

We're still waiting for that verse from you and/or Dave, the one that says, "No, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few." Or even the verse that states, "Jesus died ONLY for those to who eventually will be given faith." When you can find that verse, we'll see how that relates to the many, many verses that specifically, verbatim, in black-and-white, undeniable words states: "Jesus died for all, for everyone." But until you quote the verse that states all those verses are wrong, until we get the "ONLY' "EXCLUSIVELY" statements from Scripture. I think we would stick with what Scripture says.

So again, you dont believe Jesus death saved anyone, you believe man saves himself by something he does.

No, that's a lie.

You can't quote me saying that because you and everyone here knows I not only NEVER in my life have said such a thing but I've said the exact opposite.

Jesus' death ALONE (sic)... VOID OF ANYTHING ELSE ... does not bring justification to the individual. None of us have remotely so stated. Because while we echo the Scriptures that state Jesus died for all people, we also echo the Scriptures that state not all have faith. And we hld both are essential to personal justication/salvation. We don't reject and repudiate the role and necessity of faith, we hold that faith is not moot but actually essential for personal justification. His death IS essential AND so is faith - both the work and gift of God. It's not either/or, it's both/and.

And I reject your Pelagianism, your heresy that if faith exists, it can only be because the unregerate, fallen, atheist person creates faith himself and gives it to self. Yes, your Pelagianism means each saves self (at least in part) but I reject your Pelaganism, we hold that faith (like the Cross) is the work and gift of God.

Faith ... given to everyone Jesus saves by grace

Absolutely, now try to stay on topic. OR produce the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for everyone but rather ONLY for those who will be given faith." The NOT and ONLY are absolutely essential to your position. What Scripture states is that Jesus died for all. And those with faith have that applied to self. Both the Cross and Faith are the work and gift of God and together result in personal justification (personal salvation).





.

 

[brightfame52]

None of these Scriptures state that faith is irrelevant; that personal justification is ONLY, SOLELY, EXCLUSIVELY the result of Christ's death with faith being irrelevant, unnecessary and moot.






I reject your repudiation of faith. There is no verse that states, "If Jesus died for you, you are personally justified regardless of whether you have faith or spit in face and repudiate him." We beleive that personal justification/salvation necessitates BOTH the Cross and faith, not either/or but both/and.

And I'm still waiting for your Scripture that states, "Jesus died NOT for everyone but ONLY for those whom will one day have faith." The "ONLY" being the absolutely necessary, essential word. Without that, I'm going with all the many, many, verbatim, word-for-word statements of Scripture, "Jesus died for all people."






Yes, because faith is NOT irrelevant, personal justification is NOT ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY the result of the Cross.
We are not heretics or synergists or free-will Baptists, we are not teaching works-rightousness by indicating that faith also is essential because we hold that faith (like the Cross) is wholly God's work and gift.

You need to make up your mind: Here you agree with us that faith is the work and gift of God.... elsewhere you agree with Dave that it is the result of the fallen, unregenerate, atheistic unbliever creating faith on his own and giving it to himself, making personal justification synergistic and "works righteousness." Make up your mind.







We're still waiting for that verse from you and/or Dave, the one that says, "No, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few." Or even the verse that states, "Jesus died ONLY for those to who eventually will be given faith." When you can find that verse, we'll see how that relates to the many, many verses that specifically, verbatim, in black-and-white, undeniable words states: "Jesus died for all, for everyone." But until you quote the verse that states all those verses are wrong, until we get the "ONLY' "EXCLUSIVELY" statements from Scripture. I think we would stick with what Scripture says.






No, that's a lie.

You can't quote me saying that because you and everyone here knows I not only NEVER in my life have said such a thing but I've said the exact opposite.

Jesus' death ALONE (sic)... VOID OF ANYTHING ELSE ... does not bring justification to the individual. None of us have remotely so stated. Because while we echo the Scriptures that state Jesus died for all people, we also echo the Scriptures that state not all have faith. And we hld both are essential to personal justication/salvation. We don't reject and repudiate the role and necessity of faith, we hold that faith is not moot but actually essential for personal justification. His death IS essential AND so is faith - both the work and gift of God. It's not either/or, it's both/and.

And I reject your Pelagianism, your heresy that if faith exists, it can only be because the unregerate, fallen, atheist person creates faith himself and gives it to self. Yes, your Pelagianism means each saves self (at least in part) but I reject your Pelaganism, we hold that faith (like the Cross) is the work and gift of God.






Absolutely, now try to stay on topic. OR produce the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for everyone but rather ONLY for those who will be given faith." The NOT and ONLY are absolutely essential to your position. What Scripture states is that Jesus died for all. And those with faith have that applied to self. Both the Cross and Faith are the work and gift of God and together result in personal justification (personal salvation).





.

Lol, You cant even keep up and have a honest debate, lyiing on folk, Im through with you

 

[Josiah]

Lol, You cant even keep up and have a honest debate, lyiing on folk, Im through with you

@brightfame52


I realize you won't read this, but for others...


I understand why you have a felt-need to exit the discussion...

But the only "lie" was by you stating this: "you believe man saves himself by something he does."

You COULD actually read what is posted (none of it difficult) and supply the verses required that are absolutely necessary for your position. But we note your felt-need here. And that's okay. We understand.


@1689Dave

All these verses apply only to The Sheep or the Church that Christ is specifically said to die for Jn 10:11,15; Eph 5:25

Isn't it curious that NONE of the Scriptures you quote or reference remotely state what you claim? Not one? That your whole point is entirely missing from every one? But what you claim is found NOWHERE, no verse at all that states, "Jesus died not for everyone but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for the Sheep, the Church?" Odd that Scripture would never state your view.... especially since you think it's so critical, I wonder why God forgot to ever say it? And curious that God so often states the exact opposite of your view, over and over. Odd.

Cross:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.

Now, where is the verse that states "No, Jesus did not die for all people but only, exclusively for some unknown few." Or "Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for those who will eventually have faith?"



Faith:

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)

Now, where is the verse that states, "Faith is moot and not necessary for personal justification" And "faith is the work of self and not the work or gift of God."




Bright, you claim these two "prove my point." Let's actually quote them and see...


Here's Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." I fully and literally accept this verse. But it does NOTHING to support your new Calvinist invention. For your position, the verse would have to state, "... Christ loved ONLY the church and gave up His life ONLY for her." The entirety of your position, the whole of your apologetic, depends on ONLY. And it's not there. You are just using a silly logical fallacy. If I stated, "Ford makes Mustangs" that does not prove you Ford ONLY makes Mustangs..

Here's John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." Yup, we fully accept that. But if you actually read the verse you might have an epiphany... it does not say "ONLY for the sheep." If I posted, "Ford makes Mustangs" that does not prove it ONLY makes Mustangs. You entire apologetic depends on a logical fallacy, it depends on word entirely missing; there is no ONLY here.

Your entire apologetic, your whole argument rests on a logical fallacy (so obvious to EVERYONE here but brightfame and Dave). Not only do you have NOT ONE Scripture that states what you do.... not only are there LOTS of Scriptures that verbatim states the exact OPPOSITE of what you do, but your entire apologetic wholly depends on a logical fallacy and on invisible, missing words.




.

 

[prism]

If the radical followers of Calvin (who invented this) are correct (and the Bible wrong) then no one can know if Jesus is THEIR Savior...

The Holy Spirit knows who are His and convicts those same of their sinfulness as well as reveal Jesus to them ( His elect).

 

[Albion]

If the radical followers of Calvin (who invented this) are correct (and the Bible wrong) then no one can know if Jesus is THEIR Savior or that their faith is apprehending something that is for them; we'll all have to live in terror, with no reason to believe we are forgiven, saved, heaven-bound... because Jesus only died for SOME and there's no list of who is included in that SOME.

The Holy Spirit knows who are His and convicts those same of their sinfulness as well as reveal Jesus to them ( His elect).

In practice, it appears to be the case that orthodox Calvinists assume they are among the Elect for the reason that they believe Calvin and his speculations concerning salvation.

Presumably, these Calvinists cannot know who the Elect are. Still, I've never met a Calvinist churchgoer who feels that the odds are that he, personally, isn't one of the Elect, but who continues to belong to a church, attends worship services, takes communion, etc. just the same.

 

[Albion]

It's "we we we we" and not God are our savior. You cannot smoke screen your way around it.

That statement of yours, however garbled it is, does appear to be saying that the Elect are automatically saved because of a decree of God and they don't even need to know it, let alone respond to it in any way. Is that indeed your position??

 

[prism]

In practice, it appears to be the case that orthodox Calvinists assume they are among the Elect for the reason that they believe Calvin and his speculations concerning salvation.

Presumably, these Calvinists cannot know who the Elect are. Still, I've never met a Calvinist churchgoer who feels that the odds are that he, personally, isn't one of the Elect, but who continues to belong to a church, attends worship services, takes communion, etc. just the same.

In my case, Calvin had nothing to do with it . The Lord drew me, convicted me and revealed His Son to me. I have nothing to boast of, such as free will, cleverness or a shiny pedigree.
I cannot know who are the elect, but I do know after going through a radical transformation through the new birth, I can be assured I am one of the elect, just as Paul could call the members of the Churches he wrote letters to as ‘elect‘.

 

[Josiah]

In my case, Calvin had nothing to do with it . The Lord drew me, convicted me and revealed His Son to me. I have nothing to boast of, such as free will, cleverness or a shiny pedigree.
I cannot know who are the elect, but I do know after going through a radical transformation through the new birth, I can be assured I am one of the elect, just as Paul could call the members of the Churches he wrote letters to as ‘elect‘.

@prism

Well, that's nice. And with all due respect, I'm sure you are sincere. And I certainly hope you are right.

But embracing as you do that Jesus did not die for all but only for some few, it seems you ASSUME you are among those unknown few. And I pray you are right!! But how can you know? Odds are, you're wrong because according to Calvin (and you seem to echo it), Jesus did NOT die for most - and (unfortunately) Jesus didn't list those lucky few for whom Jesus died. We're left to our feelings, our hunches, our wish, our guess, our hope. Knowing odds are that we're wrong. But again, I sincerely hope you are right.

For non Calvinists, for all the rest of us, it's pretty simple. Jesus died for everyone. For all people. And since I'm a people, He died for me. I don't have to assume so... I don't have to hope so... I don't have to guess... I don't have to wonder... if I'm a people, He died for me. Exactly as the Bible SO often, verbatim, word-for-word states. It doesn't just "imply" it. That's not just a possible interpretation. It's what SO many Scriptures verbatim actually state - exactly like that. So, I think it's sound to think it's true. Jesus died for me. Now, also required is faith, and I do trust/rely on His death FOR ME. And I have that faith and I know it's in something for ME (being a people). And I know my faith is not in a phantom, a ghost, a nothing (at least for ME) - faith in vain, I know that trusting His death for me is certain because He died for all people and I'm a people. This exactly what the Bible says. Jesus died for ALL. Those that trust He died for them are saved.


Blessings on your Advent season!


- Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

In my case, Calvin had nothing to do with it . The Lord drew me, convicted me and revealed His Son to me. I have nothing to boast of, such as free will, cleverness or a shiny pedigree.

If you believe in that T-U-L-I-P package of beliefs, I'd say that you ARE indebted to Calvin.

And the idea that the Lord drew you isn't anything out of the ordinary. Any believer in free will might say the same, and for good reason. This doesn't really have anything to do--one way or the other--with being part of an Elect or not.

Having said that, maybe we should also take note that no one here has...and no one should..."boast" about having free will. In all the discussion that has already gone by concerning free will, I don't remember anyone boasting of having the ability to exercise free will, nor should he. I'm wondering if you might be thinking of some other part of this issue.

I cannot know who are the elect, but I do know after going through a radical transformation through the new birth, I can be assured I am one of the elect, just as Paul could call the members of the Churches he wrote letters to as ‘elect‘.

All right, then that would be to use the word in a different sense.

 

[prism]

you believe in that T-U-L-I-P package of beliefs, I'd say that you ARE indebted to Calvin.

And the idea that the Lord drew you isn't anything out of the ordinary. Any believer in free will might say the same, and for good reason. This doesn't really have anything to do--one way or the other--with being part of an Elect or not.

Having said that, maybe we should also take note that no one here has...and no one should..."boast" about having free will. In all the discussion that has already gone by concerning free will, I don't remember anyone boasting of having the ability to exercise free will, nor should he. I'm wondering if you might be thinking of some other part of this issue.

Like I said in the beginning, the L in TULIP is unprovable, as there are passages that point both ways.. Hence all the debate on the topic.
Free will was true with unfallen Adam and Jesus, otherwise .

Ephesians 2:2-3 KJV
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[prism]

@prism

Well, that's nice. And with all due respect, I'm sure you are sincere. And I certainly hope you are right.

But embracing as you do that Jesus did not die for all but only for some few, it seems you ASSUME you are among those unknown few. And I pray you are right!! But how can you know? Odds are, you're wrong because according to Calvin (and you seem to echo it), Jesus did NOT die for most - and (unfortunately) Jesus didn't list those lucky few for whom Jesus died. We're left to our feelings, our hunches, our wish, our guess, our hope. Knowing odds are that we're wrong. But again, I sincerely hope you are right.

For non Calvinists, for all the rest of us, it's pretty simple. Jesus died for everyone. For all people. And since I'm a people, He died for me. I don't have to assume so... I don't have to hope so... I don't have to guess... I don't have to wonder... if I'm a people, He died for me. Exactly as the Bible SO often, verbatim, word-for-word states. It doesn't just "imply" it. That's not just a possible interpretation. It's what SO many Scriptures verbatim actually state - exactly like that. So, I think it's sound to think it's true. Jesus died for me. Now, also required is faith, and I do trust/rely on His death FOR ME. And I have that faith and I know it's in something for ME (being a people). And I know my faith is not in a phantom, a ghost, a nothing (at least for ME) - faith in vain, I know that trusting His death for me is certain because He died for all people and I'm a people. This exactly what the Bible says. Jesus died for ALL. Those that trust He died for them are saved.


Blessings on your Advent season!


- Josiah



.

So Jesus started a work but left it unfinished?
He died for all and then left mankind wallowing in it's own sinful depravity, blinded by satan, groping in darkness?

 

[1689Dave]

We say "Jesus never fails". Universalists say "Jesus always fails".