Jesus died for the sins of the world

[Albion]

Again, you fail to understand the efficaciousness of Christs death, which is not good. All for whom Christ died He redeemed from the penalty of sin.

If that were so, why did Jesus constantly admonish his listeners to repent, to follow him, and so forth? By that, I'm not referring to calls for them to respect the people who are in authority, to bury the dead, to care for the poor, and so on, but all of his urgings that concerned their standing with God would have been meaningless if his death on the Cross was a 'blank check' to his Elect while those who were not among that number had no chance at all?

 

[brightfame52]

If that were so, why did Jesus constantly admonish his listeners to repent, to follow him, and so forth? By that, I'm not referring to calls for them to respect the people who are in authority, to bury the dead, to care for the poor, and so on, but all of his urgings that concerned their standing with God would have been meaningless if his death on the Cross was a 'blank check' to his Elect while those who were not among that number had no chance at all?

No need to go into all that, thats a rabbit trail, the point is, If you believe Christ died for all without exception, by default you reject the Truth that His Death alone saved them He died for. Something else made the difference of saved and lost.

 

[Josiah]

If you believe Christ died for all without exception, by default you reject the Truth that His Death alone saved them He died for. Something else made the difference of saved and lost.

@brightfame52


EXACTLY!

As those of us supporting Universal Atonement have been saying to Dave in hundreds of posts now (all ignored).
What makes the difference? Faith.

For one to have personal justification, TWO things are necessary: The Cross and Faith. Jesus supplies it by the Cross, it is applied to/apprehended/embraced by the individual person by faith. BOTH are the work of God. BOTH are the gift God. BOTH are necessary for personal justification. One without the other does not result in justification.

+ Universal Atonement stands with the Bible and the history and faith of the church in believing what the Bible so clearly, so often, verbatim states: Jesus died for all.
+ Universal Atonement stands with the Bible and the faith of the church in believing what the Bible so clearly, so often, verbatim states: He who has faith receives this atoning work. And thus that individual is saved/personally justified.

Dave has insisted that if Jesus died for all, then all have personal justification. Why? Because he rejects faith, ALL that matters is the Cross, faith is irrelevant, moot to personal justification. When ask to give the verses that state, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few" well, since he can't, he just keeps stating the question "If Jesus died for all, then all are saved" (and of course we all know not all are saved). The apologetic he has for this radical Calvinist theory (rejected by every Calvinist I know) is: Since faith doesn't matter (only the Cross, the Cross alone), then if Jesus died for all then all are saved. His premise is wrong. The Cross is not alone. Faith is not irrelevant. The Cross (while critical and essential) is not all that matters. He simply has repudiated faith part of the biblical, classic teaching of personal justification. By repudiating the FAITH part, the ONLY reason for why some aren't saved is the Cross. Thus all we hear from him is "If Jesus died for all then all would be saved." It's a wrong conclusion because it's based entirely on a wrong premise, that ALL that matters is if Jesus died for you, faith is irrelevant.

Jesus died for everyone. EXACTLY what the Bible states.
Not everyone has faith. EXACTLY what the Bible states.
Since BOTH the Cross and Faith are essential to personal justification (neither is "ALONE") then the reason some don't have personal justification is not because the Bible is wrong when it states Jesus died for all but because the Bible is right when it says He died for all but not all have faith and thus not all apprehend/apply the Cross to self via the divine gift of faith.


Now, your theory that God gives faith to all for whom He died is simply Universalism (an off shot of radical Calvinism). And is nowhere stated in Scripture, as you've shown. Historically, Election has always been regarded as MYSTERY (we don't know why) and connected to FAITH. Yes, God gives faith to His elect. But this by no means creates a contradiction because (the church has always believed) predestination applies to those who will be given faith, NOT to those for whom Jesus would die. Thus, all the Scriptures are correct, we don't have to repudiate and denounce a whole set of clear Scriptures: the ones that teach Jesus died for all and the ones that teach God gives faith to whom he chooses. These few radical Calvinists, by re-directing predestination to the Cross instead of faith, got themselves in a real mess -one that requires repudiating a LOT of very clear Scriptures Christians have always believed.





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[Albion]

No need to go into all that,

Apparently it was necessary to go into all that. I would have taken that course if we all had arrived at the facts of the matter.

the point is, If you believe Christ died for all without exception, by default you reject the Truth that His Death alone saved them He died for.

No, you don't.

We still have to agree with the Bible, not just what seems logical.

However, you may have 'zeroed in' on the main stumbling block that's keeping the discussion unresolved after so much talk. So...

Something else made the difference of saved and lost.

Now you're talking! Having gotten this far, what do you suppose that something could be?

 

[brightfame52]

@brightfame52


EXACTLY!

As those of us supporting Universal Atonement have been saying to Dave in hundreds of posts now (all ignored).
What makes the difference? Faith.

For one to have personal justification, TWO things are necessary: The Cross and Faith. Jesus supplies it by the Cross, it is applied to/apprehended/embraced by the individual person by faith. BOTH are the work of God. BOTH are the gift God. BOTH are necessary for personal justification. One without the other does not result in justification.

+ Universal Atonement stands with the Bible and the history and faith of the church in believing what the Bible so clearly, so often, verbatim states: Jesus died for all.
+ Universal Atonement stands with the Bible and the faith of the church in believing what the Bible so clearly, so often, verbatim states: He who has faith receives this atoning work. And thus that individual is saved/personally justified.

Dave has insisted that if Jesus died for all, then all have personal justification. Why? Because he rejects faith, ALL that matters is the Cross, faith is irrelevant, moot to personal justification. When ask to give the verses that state, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few" well, since he can't, he just keeps stating the question "If Jesus died for all, then all are saved" (and of course we all know not all are saved). The apologetic he has for this radical Calvinist theory (rejected by every Calvinist I know) is: Since faith doesn't matter (only the Cross, the Cross alone), then if Jesus died for all then all are saved. His premise is wrong. The Cross is not alone. Faith is not irrelevant. The Cross (while critical and essential) is not all that matters. He simply has repudiated faith part of the biblical, classic teaching of personal justification. By repudiating the FAITH part, the ONLY reason for why some aren't saved is the Cross. Thus all we hear from him is "If Jesus died for all then all would be saved." It's a wrong conclusion because it's based entirely on a wrong premise, that ALL that matters is if Jesus died for you, faith is irrelevant.

Jesus died for everyone. EXACTLY what the Bible states.
Not everyone has faith. EXACTLY what the Bible states.
Since BOTH the Cross and Faith are essential to personal justification (neither is "ALONE") then the reason some don't have personal justification is not because the Bible is wrong when it states Jesus died for all but because the Bible is right when it says He died for all but not all have faith and thus not all apprehend/apply the Cross to self via the divine gift of faith.


Now, your theory that God gives faith to all for whom He died is simply Universalism (an off shot of radical Calvinism). And is nowhere stated in Scripture, as you've shown. Historically, Election has always been regarded as MYSTERY (we don't know why) and connected to FAITH. Yes, God gives faith to His elect. But this by no means creates a contradiction because (the church has always believed) predestination applies to those who will be given faith, NOT to those for whom Jesus would die. Thus, all the Scriptures are correct, we don't have to repudiate and denounce a whole set of clear Scriptures: the ones that teach Jesus died for all and the ones that teach God gives faith to whom he chooses. These few radical Calvinists, by re-directing predestination to the Cross instead of faith, got themselves in a real mess -one that requires repudiating a LOT of very clear Scriptures Christians have always believed.





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Okay, so you make Faith the difference on saved and lost and not Christ. Thats dishonoring to Christ and His Blood. Faith didn't die for nobodys sins. Your saviour is faith, not Jesus Christ friend.

 

[brightfame52]

Apparently it was necessary to go into all that. I would have taken that course if we all had arrived at the facts of the matter.


No, you don't.

We still have to agree with the Bible, not just what seems logical.

However, you may have 'zeroed in' on the main stumbling block that's keeping the discussion unresolved after so much talk. So...


Now you're talking! Having gotten this far, what do you suppose that something could be?

Its a simple reasonable conclusion, if you believe people Christ died for, wind up in hell anyway, its impossible for you to believe that Christs death alone saves sinners.

 

[Josiah]

Its a simple reasonable conclusion, if you believe people Christ died for, wind up in hell anyway, its impossible for you to believe that Christs death alone saves sinners.

The Bible never states that Christ's death ALONE saves.

Personal justification is the result of the Cross AND faith. One without the other does not bring personal justification.

See post 323.


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[Josiah]

Your saviour is faith, not Jesus Christ friend.

No, I make it BOTH the Cross and Faith. Both the work and gift of God. Jesus is the Savior.... His salvic work applied/apprehended to the individual via faith.

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)


Now, quote the verse(s) that contradict these and state, "If Jesus died for you, you have personal justification whether you believe in Christ or spit in his face and worship the devil - doesn't matter, faith is irrelevant."

Here again, you seem to have a theology based on an invisible word, in this case "ALONE." There is no verse that states, "if Jesus died for you, you are saved regardless of faith, faith being irrelevant, moot and unnecessary." Not one verse that states your position.


See post 323



.

 

[Albion]

Its a simple reasonable conclusion, if you believe people Christ died for, wind up in hell anyway, its impossible for you to believe that Christs death alone saves sinners.

Yes, it pleases many people to think that everyone is saved, no matter what. It reassures them that they are safe as well, and it makes them like God better. But we don't get to define God for ourselves, and there is no reason to think that we humans are not sinners in the first place. It's pretty obvious that humans do commit a lot of terrible, unjust, self-serving acts.

Well, if God simply wipes all that away and took the view that evil is no big deal with him, it would be a relief, wouldn't it. On the other hand, not a lot of the people who opt for that scenario or something like it, are also of the opinion that Hitler should be enjoying eternity in heavenly bliss as well.

But the main point there is that we either believe the Bible or we don't have anything except a God of our own imagining. And if we DO believe the Bible, believe in Christ Jesus, we can hardly miss all that's there to the effect that God and sin do not co-exist, and that he does destroy Sodom and Gomorrah on occasion, does destroy the world by a gigantic flood, and much more in that vein.

If so, giving everyone a CHANCE is merciful! He doesn't have to also give those who don't even accept it the same reward as you who trust in Christ Jesus will, hopefully, receive.

 

[brightfame52]

The Bible never states that Christ's death ALONE saves.

Personal justification is the result of the Cross AND faith. One without the other does not bring personal justification.

See post 323.


.

So you don't believe that Christ death alone saves, that is a fact!

 

[brightfame52]

No, I make it BOTH the Cross and Faith. Both the work and gift of God. Jesus is the Savior.... His salvic work applied/apprehended to the individual via faith.

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)


Now, quote the verse(s) that contradict these and state, "If Jesus died for you, you have personal justification whether you believe in Christ or spit in his face and worship the devil - doesn't matter, faith is irrelevant."

Here again, you seem to have a theology based on an invisible word, in this case "ALONE." There is no verse that states, "if Jesus died for you, you are saved regardless of faith, faith being irrelevant, moot and unnecessary." Not one verse that states your position.


See post 323



.

Right but Christ is the only Saviour! You have two savior's scripture teaches one

Isaiah 43:11


I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 45:21

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

You flirting with idolatry friend

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, it pleases many people to think that everyone is saved, no matter what. It reassures them that they are safe as well, and it makes them like God better. But we don't get to define God for ourselves, and there is no reason to think that we humans are not sinners in the first place. It's pretty obvious that humans do commit a lot of terrible, unjust, self-serving acts.

Well, if God simply wipes all that away and took the view that evil is no big deal with him, it would be a relief, wouldn't it. On the other hand, not a lot of the people who opt for that scenario or something like it, are also of the opinion that Hitler should be enjoying eternity in heavenly bliss as well.

But the main point there is that we either believe the Bible or we don't have anything except a God of our own imagining. And if we DO believe the Bible, believe in Christ Jesus, we can hardly miss all that's there to the effect that God and sin do not co-exist, and that he does destroy Sodom and Gomorrah on occasion, does destroy the world by a gigantic flood, and much more in that vein.

If so, giving everyone a CHANCE is merciful! He doesn't have to also give those who don't even accept it the same reward as you who trust in Christ Jesus will, hopefully, receive.

So stick with your guns, you don't believe that Christ blood effectually saved redeemed them He died for. According to the singing exactly how were these redeemed unto God? Rev 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation

 

[Albion]

So stick with your guns, you don't believe that Christ blood effectually saved redeemed them He died for.

He redeemed them, meaning that he died to remove the guilt from all who lived before the Crucifixion when no one could be saved. That action, however, was not a free pass to heaven for everyone irrespective of whether they were/are believers in the Lord, trusting him for their salvation as he himself said, or instead chose the other way. You know what I mean by that.

According to the singing exactly how were these redeemed unto God? Rev 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation

I think you missed my message badly, but two times in succession of trying should be sufficient for me to feel that I at least made the effort. Josiah and others have tried as well.

So you don't believe that Christ death alone saves, that is a fact!

How silly a comment is that. At this point, you are working hard to not even engage with what's being explained to you.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, yet again, still another time, we've all lost count of how often we have conveyed this to you, because the dead ALONE doesn't save anyone, personal justification ALSO, ADDITIONALLY is needed.

The Bible states that Jesus died for all. It does not say that faith is given to all. So while Jesus' death offers to all full atonement, if that is not embraced/apprehended/applied via faith to the individual, then there is no personal justification. You INSIST in the heresy that the Cross ITSELF personally justifies all, it's unbiblical, it's heresy. John 3:16 does not say what you insist it does, it does NOT state, "For God loved some unknown few people (probably not you) that He gave Jesus to some unknown few (odds are, not you) that all of them have eterlasting life whether they have faith or spit in His faith and denounce Him, couldn't matter less cuz faith don't matter for anything." Try reading what Jesus actually said - not correcting Him by inserting a lot of heretical things He never said, stop putting a lot of "NOT" into it so as to repudiate what He actually said.

The reality that not everyone has personal justifiction is NOT because the Bible is wrong or lying with it SO often, so obviously, so clearly, verbatim, in black-and-white words my four-year-old can read and understand when it STATES "Jesus died for everyone." It's true because the Bible ALSO says without faith, there is no justification.

But you just don't care. IF you read anything posted to you, you just don't care. Accountability is rejected by you. You can't be wrong. Not even when Jesus SO often states the EXACT OPPOSITE of your view. Pur Jesus.






Friend you proved the exact opposite.
+ You proved you have not one verse that states that "All for whom Christ died are personally justified."
+ You proved you have not one verse that states, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few."

I read your many quotes - all of them - not one remotely states what you do. You keep ADDING your view, the "not" and "only" and so on, the things on which your view entirely depends, but those aren't there as you've (more than once) proved.



.

And again.... this is salvation by works. You, not Christ, are your supposed savior. Have you ever thought we are arguing about two different Christs? Two different Christianities? Two different sets of Christians? Why did you dump Luther and side with Melanchthon?

 

[brightfame52]

albion

He redeemed them,

Same thing, a synonym for Salvation

I think you missed my message badly, but two times in succession of trying should be sufficient for me to feel that I at least made the effort. Josiah and others have tried as well.

Your message is Christs blood alone doesnt save them He died for.

In Rev 5:9 how were they redeemed unto God according to their testimony ?

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

How silly a comment is that. At this point, you are working hard to not even engage with what's being explained to you.

Actually its a very solemn comment my friend.

 

[Josiah]

You have two savior's scripture teaches one

@brightfame52


Absurd.

Of course, there is one Savior - the Lord Jesus Christ - exactly as Scripture clearly and verbatim states.

Yes, His life and death and resurrection is how this salvation is gained. Just as Scripture clearly and verbatim states.

Yes, this is apprehended/applied to the individual by faith. Just as the Scriptures clearly and verbatim state.


Your error (actually, heresy) is that Jesus' death means ALL are personally justified - regardless of whether they have faith or not, whether they spit in His face and deny Him or trust in Him, no difference you insist. Dave does too with his foundational point of "If Jesus died for all then all are saved." Both of you commit the error or repudiating faith.

You reject all the clear, obvious, undeniable, verbatim, black-and-white statements of Scripture that Jesus died for all. Then you reject all the clear, obvious, undeniable, verbatim, black-and-white statement of Scripture that not only the Cross but also faith is essential for personal justification. Two repudiations of Scripture. And we all note: you have NOT ONE Scripture that says Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some unknown few... NOT ONE Scripture that states that if Christ died for you you are saved irregardless of whether you have faith.



.

 

[Josiah]

@1689Dave


No, the following Scriptures do NOT teach that we save ourselves.


No, I make it BOTH the Cross and Faith. Both the work and gift of God. Jesus is the Savior.... His salvic work applied/apprehended to the individual via faith.

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)


My view that the above Scriptures are true does NOT mean hold to works-righteousness. My view is that the above Scriptures are correct, not wrong. Faith is essential, as is the Cross.


Your view that the many Scriptures that flat-out, verbatim, in black-and-white words my four year old son can read that state Jesus died for all people - that all those are wrong.... Your view that all the many Scriptures that flat-out, verbatim, in black-and-white words my four year old son can read that state faith is also essential - that all those are wrong... these denials are the basis of your gross (and shocking) heresy.

And again, I reject your Pelagian view that the only way faith can exist is if the unregenerate, dead, atheistic, fallen sinner creates faith in self and gives it to self. Yes, Pelagius taught that faith is something the unsaved do, but I reject that view you so passionately embrace. I hold that faith - like the Cross - is the work and gift of God. Stop imposing your Pelagian heresy on us, we don't believe that, we don't accept that faith is the work of self.




.

 

[Lamb]

And again.... this is salvation by works. You, not Christ, are your supposed savior. Have you ever thought we are arguing about two different Christs? Two different Christianities? Two different sets of Christians? Why did you dump Luther and side with Melanchthon?

It's not faith by works and you have not even come close to proving your point.

Faith is not something WE do. It is a gift from God. That makes salvation 100% God's work. Nothing from us.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


No, the following Scriptures do NOT teach that we save ourselves.


No, I make it BOTH the Cross and Faith. Both the work and gift of God. Jesus is the Savior.... His salvic work applied/apprehended to the individual via faith.

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)


My view that the above Scriptures are true does NOT mean hold to works-righteousness. My view is that the above Scriptures are correct, not wrong. Faith is essential, as is the Cross.


Your view that the many Scriptures that flat-out, verbatim, in black-and-white words my four year old son can read that state Jesus died for all people - that all those are wrong.... Your view that all the many Scriptures that flat-out, verbatim, in black-and-white words my four year old son can read that state faith is also essential - that all those are wrong... these denials are the basis of your gross (and shocking) heresy.

And again, I reject your Pelagian view that the only way faith can exist is if the unregenerate, dead, atheistic, fallen sinner creates faith in self and gives it to self. Yes, Pelagius taught that faith is something the unsaved do, but I reject that view you so passionately embrace. I hold that faith - like the Cross - is the work and gift of God. Stop imposing your Pelagian heresy on us, we don't believe that, we don't accept that faith is the work of self.




.

What you miss is that Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not a work of the flesh. God must save you through the New Birth before you can have faith.

 

[Lamb]

What you miss is that Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not a work of the flesh. God must save you through the New Birth before you can have faith.

Faith is a gift from God. Salvation is by grace through faith. WHEN God gives faith, we trust that Jesus' death on the cross for the forgiveness of sins was enough.