The Doctrine of Limited Atonement Now in a Debate Approved Area.

[1689Dave]

Another red herring? Yet another? Oh my.

If people don't have faith, they are damned. Do you disagree? Never mind, obviously that's another subject for another thread.



But try, my brother, TRY to stay on topic and stop trying to change the subject to something you CAN defend. Try it.

Here's the issue before us: Do Scriptures state that Jesus died for all people OR do Scriptures that that's not true, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few. That's the topic. That's the issue.



Here are just some of the Scriptures that state Universal Atonement:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

Cricklets....


Your point about Jesus dying for planets rather than people.... that Jesus died for non-sinners.... that Jesus died for the Elect.... that faith is irrelevent to salvation, none of that shows that all those passages above are false and wrong, none of them prove that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.



.

Again, one-sided censoring much of the bible. How about your atonement ideas and salvation only for the Jews? What about the damned?

 

[1689Dave]

Scripture only teaches Limited Atonement. And people twist all the "proof texts" they try to use against it to mean something God never intended.

 

[Josiah]

How about salvation only for the Jews?

Quote me where I stated that salvation is only for the Jews...


Now, back to the subject. The issue is this: Does the Bible state that Jesus died for all people (Universal Atonement) OR does it state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few (Limited Atonement)?


Let's see....


Here are just some of the verses that state Jesus died "For all" "for everyone" "the whole world."


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

Cricklets....




.

 

[1689Dave]

Quote me where I stated that salvation is only for the few.

Now, back to the subject (which is not the Jews or salvation or planets). The issue is this: Does the Bible state that Jesus died for all people (Universal Atonement) OR does it state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few (Limited Atonement)?


Let's see....


Here are just some of the verses that state Jesus died "For all" "for everyone" "the whole world."


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

Cricklets....




.

Do you expect to live in a new world where Christ died for every person there? A saved world? This is the only place such a world will exist.

 

[Albion]

The overwhelming evidence from Scripture is that Christ came to save a very definite number of people (those given to him by the Father). In this regard, see the following texts:

Actually, they don't prove any such thing.

The fact that you imagine they do should give all of us a little warning about the dangers of reading into the Bible the ideas we already decided we want to believe.

And there is also another admonition there. I'm referring to the temptation to succumb to the attraction of renouncing Christ's church in preference to something found in a book at the local bookstore. Christ founded a church (not a particular denomination, but his church) and promised that the Holy Ghost would keep the gates of hell from prevailing against it. Two thousand years later, we can still rely upon that assurance.

 

[prism]

@1689Dave
@prism


As Dave as proven, he doesn't have any verse - not one - that proclaims Limited Atonement, that Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few. Lots of verses, none of them saying what he does.


Here's what the Bible states:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.






Correct. As has been noted to Dave before, here is an example of one FOR WHOM JESUS DIED but who was not saved. Justification requires not only that Jesus died for them but also that they have faith; if there is no faith there is no promise of salvation. A lack of salvation does not prove Scripture is wrong in proclaiming Christ died for all, it simply confirms the Scripture is right and that without faith there is no promise of salvation.




.

Hi Josiah, I know this pendulum swings both ways (as well as proof passages) and appreciate both Dave and your responses regarding this matter.
My only question for you (as a Lutheran) is 'if He died for all, why weren't all predestinated or elected?'

 

[prism]

Here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

Cricklets....

John 17:6 (KJV) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:9 (KJV) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Just these two examples show an exclusivity, not pointing to an 'all' but rather a 'particular'. There are other examples.

 

[Albion]

Forgive me for interrupting, but if Jesus died for all, it means that all have been given a chance, that's all. Previously, that wasn't the case.

As for the battle of the Bible verses going on here...please note that the ones that say "all" are hard for the reader to limit to just some people without torturing the language, but the ones that supposedly prove limited atonement do not actually confine the atonement to only a certain few.

Look closely. These refer to certain people who will be prayed for...or to people who have lived up to the moral code, etc. that Jesus taught...or something else in that vein, but that doesn't prove what Dave and you have been contending for.

 

[prism]

but that doesn't prove what Dave and you have been contending for.

Am I to assume I am the one also being addressed besides Dave? If so, as I have previously stated, I have no solid stance on this issue... only challenges to both sides.

 

[Albion]

Am I to assume I am the one also being addressed besides Dave? If so, as I have previously stated, I have no solid stance on this issue... only challenges to both sides.

Okay. I was just going by your post #28 in which you said this:

Just these two examples show an exclusivity, not pointing to an 'all' but rather a 'particular'. There are other examples.

You can see how a reader might mistake your stance after reading the above. And then there also was the "Like" you gave Dave when he presented his rationale for believing in limited atonement.

But be that as it may, I am glad to have your follow-up message.

 

[1689Dave]

Hi Josiah, I know this pendulum swings both ways (as well as proof passages) and appreciate both Dave and your responses regarding this matter.
My only question for you (as a Lutheran) is 'if He died for all, why weren't all predestinated or elected?'

I have some verses that identify the elect as the subjects of Christ's death. Also what about some Pharisees Jesus blatantly says he did not die for?

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

So, the reason the Pharisees did not believe, is because Jesus did not die for them.

Also, have you thought about the effects of each? If universal atonement does not save anyone, then they must save themselves through works of obedience. The Bible teaches salvation by grace only, and says people are too sinful to even perceive Christ let alone save themselves.

Limited atonement saves those who cannot believe. Giving them a new heart that loves God and hates sin. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

How glorious are the self-righteous who save themselves? How much of God's glory do they steal honoring themselves as their own savior? It is the helpless soul who cannot HONESTLY believe, that God receives full glory in saving.

 

[prism]

Also, have you thought about the effects of each? If universal atonement does not save anyone, then they must save themselves through works of obedience. The Bible teaches salvation by grace only, and says people are too sinful to even perceive Christ let alone save themselves.

Yet the ramifications of limited atonement would make God partial, choosing beforehand who He would and would not die for.

Limited atonement saves those who cannot believe.

Ok, I hold to solus Christus, not limited atonement for salvation.

How glorious are the self-righteous who save themselves? How much of God's glory do they steal honoring themselves as their own savior? It is the helpless soul who cannot HONESTLY believe, that God receives full glory in saving.

This touches on total depravity rather than limited atonement.

 

[1689Dave]

Yet the ramifications of limited atonement would make God partial, choosing beforehand who He would and would not die for.

Ok, I hold to solus Christus, not limited atonement for salvation.


This touches on total depravity rather than limited atonement.

Why did God create the Universe and all that is therein? Answer this and you will know why God arbitrarily elected certain sinners by name, before time began, and condemned the rest. Paul tells us why in his writings.

Total depravity means all hate God and worship idols instead, among other things. It also means they twist scripture to their own liking, not being able to grasp spiritual truth. All are lost except a relatively small group God arbitrarily chose, to make the glory of his mercy known. Leaving the rest to perish, making the glory of his sovereignty and wrath known. You cannot know who God is apart from our sinful species he reveals himself through.

If Jesus paid for everyone's sins, all would be saved. But they are not. How do you explain this apart from free will, a heresy condemned in Pelagianism in 431 at Ephesus?

Romans 5:10: For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

 

[1689Dave]

Here's what the Bible states: By Josiah in italics.

Dave’s reply (>)





1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

>The promise God made to Abraham was to save not only Jews, as was the case in the Old Testament, but to now add Gentiles to Israel saving them too. Most of the Jews perished with only few saved. And so it is, most of the gentiles now perish with only few saved. “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” Luke 13:23–24 (KJV 1900)



Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, (Fragment out of context)



>“Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,” Titus 2:9–11 (KJV 1900)

Not just the rich and Nobel, but to all classes including slaves.



John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

>This is providing a description of those God saves. Just as blue eyes are a trait of Germany. Notice: eternal life has no beginning or end. So believers always existed as saved co-eternally with God in his plans. This is not true of those Christ supposedly died for and are lost.





Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone (all men).



>Written to the Hebrews who knew salvation was only of the Jews. The writer makes it clear that salvation is now of gentiles too. Just as most of the Jews perished under Law, most of the gentiles perish today.



2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.



>The love of Christ controls us: “Us” limits “all” to ALL of us. Certainly the supposed subjects of Universal Atonement have never died as to their passions and lusts.





1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

>Did God fail to save the world? What if He succeeded and He speaks of the saved world of the New Heavens and Earth? Where Christ will have died for all who are there? A saved world without end?



John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

>A Jew in the audience would know this meant not only Jews, but Gentiles too. If Jesus took away everyone’s sin. All would be saved and we can see that is not true.



1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

>Why are not all saved unless Paul means Jews and Gentiles alike? Americanized Christianity has a communication breakdown.



2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

>Also quoted in full from above: 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

>Again: The love of Christ controls us: “Us” limits “all” to us. Certainly the supposed subjects of Universal Atonement have never died as to their passions and lusts



2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

>God entrusted to us the message of reconciliation. What about: “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

>Or: “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 (KJV 1900)

Doesn’t the term World make more sense in the Jewish understanding? Rather than in the Americanized version?



1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

>“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900) This passage limits ALL to those given to Christ by the Father to redeem.





1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

>“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” John 6:39 (KJV 1900)



2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all. (Fragment out of context)

>“Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.” 2 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV 1900)

“For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.” 2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900)

 

[Josiah]

Hi Josiah, I know this pendulum swings both ways (as well as proof passages) and appreciate both Dave and your responses regarding this matter.
My only question for you (as a Lutheran) is 'if He died for all, why weren't all predestinated or elected?'

@prism

Election has always been connected to FAITH.

As for the question of why.... Lutherans feel no over-riding authority (or even desire) to answer all questions, especially when Scripture doesn't. That doesn't make it wrong to ask questions - just to appoint self to answer them and then demand that God agrees in order for God to be as smart as self. Lutherans are more than willing to admit there is MYSTERY in the issue of justification, but Lutherans hold that God tells the truth in what He states in Scripture - just that He doesn't state everything.

John 17:6 (KJV) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:9 (KJV) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

1. None of these is specially speaking of His death. The issue we are discussing is not who are "His" or even who will eventually be saved but rather whether Jesus died for all or only for some unknown few.

2. Like those "elect" verses, these are not saying ONLY. If I stated, "Women can vote in the US" that is not proof that ergo men cannot.

I'd be the first to admit that OCCASIONALLY, we'll find what appears to we fallen, stupid, limited people two "sets" of Scriptures that SEEM to conflict (even contradict). Happens. And then we need to determine how these "Fit" (IF they do and IF we can). Perhaps it's a "law/gospel" issue or a "justification/sanctification" issue or perhaps even old covenant/new covenant one. And sometimes, we can't "determine" it. Well, we have a goodly number of verses that verbatim and clearly state ALL PEOPLE, EVERYONE. That even depend on that for the verse in context to make any sense. IF (big word there, LOL), IF we had another set of equally clear, equally obvious Scriptures that verbatim stated, "Jesus did NOT die for all" and "Jesus died for ONLY some" - we'd have one of those situation. But we don't. Dave can't produce one verse (much less many) that clearly stated that. Now, does this biblical teaching make for some good questions? Yup. Does that mean what these many Scriptures verbatim states is thus wrong? No.





@1689Dave

I read your post.... rarely have I ever witness more creative spinning, more of an obvious need to deny what is right there, over and over and over again, in black-and-white verbatim words. Rarely have I seen such extreme eisegesis. A profound disrespect for Scripture, a very very dangerous way to do theology.

But more than anything, still.... yup still.... NOTHING that states your point: Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few. Even if you had adequately repudiated everything God verbatim and constantly said, that would be zero substantiation for your view. You prove: You have nothing.

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.

You yourself keep proving it does no such thing. You keep shooting yourself in the foot on that too. It says Jesus died for the elect. It doesn't say "only" and it doesn't say "not." Funny how you seem unable to read the existing words on the page... but invisible, non-existent words are the whole basis of your theology.

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 SO interesting how you don't seem to read the Scriptures you quote. It says they BELIEVE not. They've not been given faith because they are not among the elect. Okay. Try to stay on topic. The issue here is did Jesus die for all people as the Bible so often, so boldly, so clearly, so undeniably VERBATIM states (Universal Atonement) or did Jesus NOT die for all but ONLY for a few unknown persons (Limited Atonement) as you've shown the Bible never says? That's the issue. Stay on topic. stop the red herrings.

If Jesus paid for everyone's sins, all would be saved

Again, yet again, still another time (how silly it is to try to converse with one who will read anything posted to them)....

I reject your repudiation of the role of faith in justification, I reject your denial that faith matters, not only rejecting all the many Scriptures that out-right proclaim that Jesus died for all but also all those that out-right proclaim that without faith one is not saved.

As everyone knows, Universal Atonement does not say that God gives faith to everyone, it says that Christ died for everyone (because that precisely echoes what the Bible verbatim says). Jesus dying for all does not mean all are saved for a very simple reason that even my 4 year old son knows: Not everyone has faith. That my 4 year old can understand that but it alludes you, well...... It's the same lack of understanding that lead a lot of radical Calvinists to become Universalists, this denial of faith, this re-write of John 3:16 to "For God so loved a tiny few that He gave His only begotten son for only them so that they will not perish but have eterlasting life whether they have faith or repudiate Jesus and worship the Devil - couldn't matter less because the only thing that matters is that Jesus died for them although no one knows who those them are."



.

 

[1689Dave]

@prism

Election has always been connected to FAITH.

As for the question of why.... Lutherans feel no over-riding authority (or even desire) to answer all questions, especially when Scripture doesn't. That doesn't make it wrong to ask questions - just to appoint self to answer them and then demand that God agrees in order for God to be as smart as self. Lutherans are more than willing to admit there is MYSTERY in the issue of justification, but Lutherans hold that God tells the truth in what He states in Scripture - just that He doesn't state everything.


@1689Dave

I read your post.... rarely have I ever witness more creative spinning, more of an obvious need to deny what is right there, over and over and over again, in black-and-white verbatim words. Rarely have I seen such extreme eisegesis. A profound disrespect for Scripture, a very very dangerous way to do theology.

But more than anything, still.... yup still.... NOTHING that states your point: Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few. Even if you had adequately repudiated everything God verbatim and constantly said, that would be zero substantiation for your view. You prove: You have nothing.





.

Thanks for your replies. I think the discerning reader, will see what's lacking in your presentation. And learn from what is in mine. It still comes back to election limiting the application of the atonement. And where Jesus told a few Pharisees he did not die for them.

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)


“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

So, the reason the Pharisees Jesus spoke to did not believe, is because he did not die for them.

Again, notice the reason they could not believe is that Jesus did not die for them.

 

[1689Dave]

Here is a paraphrase of John Owen's view from the Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.

All the sins of some men, or

Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.

That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died?

If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

 

[Albion]

If Jesus paid for everyone's sins, all would be saved.

First, you need to show that to be so, using Scripture, not a favorite contemporary writer's thoughts.

But they are not. How do you explain this apart from free will, a heresy condemned in Pelagianism in 431 at Ephesus?

absence of Faith.

Romans 5:10: For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

In other words, there is something else that is made possible because of the atonement.

Moreover, even the Reformers whom you like to think of as forerunners to your own religious theories knew that FAITH is necessary.

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

So, the reason the Pharisees Jesus spoke to did not believe, is because he did not die for them.

?? That, however, is not what the verses you have cited explain.

Nowhere does the above state that the Pharisees are lost because Christ did not die for them. It does, however, explain that it's because they do not believe, i.e. do not have saving Faith.

 

[1689Dave]

Here is the doctrine of Limited Atonement, and with a vengeance: Blood will flow - if the blood is not Christ's, shed on our behalf, it will be ours! "In A.D. 70 the Vine of Israel is cut down and trampled in the Winepress; but this destruction is the culmination of a process which has lasted over forty years; it began Outside the City, when one whom they despised and rejected trod the Winepress alone, and of the people there was none with Him. It was in that moment that Jerusalem fell."

David Chilton THE DAYS OF VENGEANCE.

This is true. All of the redeemed ran from Jerusalem in AD70, and none of them perished according to Josephus. Christ did not die for the rest who perished in horrors unimaginable.

 

[prism]

@prism

Election has always been connected to FAITH.

As for the question of why.... Lutherans feel no over-riding authority (or even desire) to answer all questions, especially when Scripture doesn't. That doesn't make it wrong to ask questions - just to appoint self to answer them and then demand that God agrees in order for God to be as smart as self. Lutherans are more than willing to admit there is MYSTERY in the issue of justification, but Lutherans hold that God tells the truth in what He states in Scripture - just that He doesn't state everything.



1. None of these is specially speaking of His death. The issue we are discussing is not who are "His" or even who will eventually be saved but rather whether Jesus died for all or only for some unknown few.

2. Like those "elect" verses, these are not saying ONLY. If I stated, "Women can vote in the US" that is not proof that ergo men cannot.

I'd be the first to admit that OCCASIONALLY, we'll find what appears to we fallen, stupid, limited people two "sets" of Scriptures that SEEM to conflict (even contradict). Happens. And then we need to determine how these "Fit" (IF they do and IF we can). Perhaps it's a "law/gospel" issue or a "justification/sanctification" issue or perhaps even old covenant/new covenant one. And sometimes, we can't "determine" it. Well, we have a goodly number of verses that verbatim and clearly state ALL PEOPLE, EVERYONE. That even depend on that for the verse in context to make any sense. IF (big word there, LOL), IF we had another set of equally clear, equally obvious Scriptures that verbatim stated, "Jesus did NOT die for all" and "Jesus died for ONLY some" - we'd have one of those situation. But we don't. Dave can't produce one verse (much less many) that clearly stated that. Now, does this biblical teaching make for some good questions? Yup. Does that mean what these many Scriptures verbatim states is thus wrong? No.









.

Josiah, I'm not so sure 'faith/justification' is the sum and substance of it all...

(Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(Rom 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Did He 'predestinate/call/justify/ and thus die for all men'?