The Doctrine of Limited Atonement Now in a Debate Approved Area.

[prism]

All are lost except a relatively small group God arbitrarily chose, to make the glory of his mercy known. Leaving the rest to perish, making the glory of his sovereignty and wrath known. You cannot know who God is apart from our sinful species he reveals himself through.

Do you have Scriptural backing that says 'God arbitrarily chose'?

And yes, there must be a 'revealing' as in...

(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[1689Dave]

Do you have Scriptural backing that says 'God arbitrarily chose'?

And yes, there must be a 'revealing' as in...

(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

He is no respecter of persons. If he saw any value in anyone, they would share his glory.

 

[Albion]

God arbitrarily elected certain sinners by name, before time began, and condemned the rest.

Do you have Scriptural backing that says 'God arbitrarily chose'?

If he saw any value in anyone, they would share his glory.

In other words, Dave says "no," he has no Scriptural backing to offer which says that God arbitrarily chose those whom he will save.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, I'm not so sure 'faith/justification' is the sum and substance of it all...

(Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(Rom 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Did He 'predestinate/call/justify/ and thus die for all men'?

Again, predestination has always been associated with FAITH, not the Cross. Those accepting Election (as all did until the Anabaptists came along) does not mean a repudiation of the verses that state Jesus died for all but the embrace of all those verses that state that personal faith is essential for justification and that faith is the work of God. Embracing Election (as all did for 1500 years) and Universal Atonement (as all did for 1500 years) are not in conflict.

Romans 8:28-30 (all of which everyone who accepts Universal Atonement accept) does not state, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few."



.

 

[Albion]

Again, predestination has always been associated with FAITH, not the Cross.

Absolutely. Whether anyone here believes in Predestination or not, the belief is that God predestined an Elect to receive saving Faith and thereby to be saved.

It's not that any Elect were saved simply because God decided to select some sinners to be saved out of the whole population of similar sinners, and did so despite the unworthiness of all of them.

Had he done that, there would have been no reason for the Son to have become human and die on the Cross although he himself was guilty of no wrongs.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, predestination has always been associated with FAITH, not the Cross. Those accepting Election (as all did until the Anabaptists came along) does not mean a repudiation of the verses that state Jesus died for all but the embrace of all those verses that state that personal faith is essential for justification and that faith is the work of God. Embracing Election (as all did for 1500 years) and Universal Atonement (as all did for 1500 years) are not in conflict.

Romans 8:28-30 (all of which everyone who accepts Universal Atonement accept) does not state, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few."



.

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2 (KJV 1900)


“For it has been granted to you not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him,” (Philippians 1:29)


“And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace,” Acts 18:27 (NASB95)


Our faith is a work of God


“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29 (KJV 1900)

“They said therefore unto him, ‘What may we do that we may work the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said to them, ‘This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.’” John 6:28–29 (YLT)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900) that is: you must be saved and born-again before you can have saving faith.

 

[1689Dave]

Did someone mention Predestination? Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Only God is eternal. So this means those whom he saves in time have always been saved in his eternal plan. That is before he created time. So Predestination is God's eternal plan unfolding in time for his elect. Do you trust that you saved yourself? Think again, the Holy Spirit's gift of faith is evidence He saved you.

"Used car Charley faith" in contrast. The same faith you gamble on Charley giving you a good deal comes from your flesh. But it cannot save. It only deceives people into thinking they are saved by their own efforts. Why, if you must choose to believe, it is because you do not believe. Real faith causes you to believe based on the witness of the Spirit in your heart.

 

[Albion]

You talk as though "save yourself" is "the" alternative to hardcore Predestinarianism. Doing that makes a handy strawman for the promotion of Predestination, but only a very small percentage of Christians actually fall into either one of those groups.

 

[prism]

Again, predestination has always been associated with FAITH, not the Cross. Those accepting Election (as all did until the Anabaptists came along) does not mean a repudiation of the verses that state Jesus died for all but the embrace of all those verses that state that personal faith is essential for justification and that faith is the work of God. Embracing Election (as all did for 1500 years) and Universal Atonement (as all did for 1500 years) are not in conflict.

Romans 8:28-30 (all of which everyone who accepts Universal Atonement accept) does not state, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few."



.

so He predestinated called and justified all because He died for all men?

Or He died for all but was too impotent to carry out the rest of His purpose due to man's sinful will?

 

[prism]

Again, predestination has always been associated with FAITH, not the Cross.

Revelation 13:8 KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Josiah]

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2 (KJV 1900)


“For it has been granted to you not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him,” (Philippians 1:29)


“And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace,” Acts 18:27 (NASB95)

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29 (KJV 1900)

“They said therefore unto him, ‘What may we do that we may work the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said to them, ‘This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.’” John 6:28–29 (YLT)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900) that is: you must be saved and born-again before you can have saving faith.

@1689Dave


Yup. Not a word about Jesus NOT dying for all people.... Not a word about Jesus dying ONLY for a few unknown persons. Nope.


Here are just some of the verses that state Jesus died "For all" "for everyone" "the whole world."


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

Cricklets....

Our faith is a work of God

Did someone mention Predestination? Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Only God is eternal. So this means those whom he saves in time have always been saved in his eternal plan. That is before he created time. So Predestination is God's eternal plan unfolding in time for his elect. Do you trust that you saved yourself? Think again, the Holy Spirit's gift of faith is evidence He saved you.

"Used car Charley faith" in contrast. The same faith you gamble on Charley giving you a good deal comes from your flesh. But it cannot save. It only deceives people into thinking they are saved by their own efforts. Why, if you must choose to believe, it is because you do not believe. Real faith causes you to believe based on the witness of the Spirit in your heart.

Yup. Now stop the red herrings, the diversions, the need to change the subject to something we all agree on. It's a desperate move of one who realizes they have nothing to support their position.

The issue is not who has faith, the issue is did Jesus die for all as the Bible so clearly, so boldly, so undeniably, verbatim states? Or is the Bible wrong and the opposite is the case, that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few? You've had hundreds of opportunities to quote the verse that states Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few but so far you haven't found the verse. Dave, consider this: radical Calvinists have been looking for that verse for nearly 500 years and none of them have yet found it.

Stop the evasion... the constant attempt to change the subject to something we agree on.




.

 

[Josiah]

so He predestinated called and justified all because He died for all men?

Nope.

Or He died for all but was too impotent to carry out the rest of His purpose due to man's sinful will?

Nope.


The Bible states that Jesus died for all people.

Now, it's true that not all people are justified (narrow) because not all have faith - but that's another issue for another day and thread, one about personal justification. The Bible teaches Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Gloria (thus my disagreement with Dave about eliminating the faith part). I disagree with Dave that if Christ died for one, that one is justified (narrow) regardless of whether they have faith or not.

Again, I have nothing against asking questions but of course questions substantiate absolutely nothing whatsoever. Asking question is fine... the problem comes when each person appoints one (always self) to answer the question - and then demand that God must agree with them (or God would be less smart than they) AND that Scripture must agree with them even if Scripture repeatedly, undeniably, verbatim says that exact opposite of what they do. Friend, for 1500 years. no one spoke of "doctrine" they spoke of "the mysteries of God." Scripture calls on us to be stewards of the mysteries of God. Classic theology has always held that Gods ways are not necessarily our ways, that God is simply more knowledgable of the things of God than any bloat here on earth, that God is smarter than all of us put together, and that God has told us what we need to know not the answer to every question a dude might ask... and the result is we have (quite often) mystery. We might not know exactly how everything fits or works simply because God has not revealed it (perhaps because we don't need to know - or perhaps cannot). Nothing wrong if asking questions... the problem comes when insisting on answering them, with nothing in Scripture (or even Tradition) that says that - and even more when Scripture (and perhaps Tradition) states the exact opposite.


@prism

The question here is this: Did Jesus die for all people or did He NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few? What does the Bible state? Well, some here have quoted many verses that specifically and verbatim state that He died for all persons.... and Dave has proven there is not one that states otherwise.




.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


Yup. Not a word about Jesus NOT dying for all people.... Not a word about Jesus dying ONLY for a few unknown persons. Nope.


Here are just some of the verses that state Jesus died "For all" "for everyone" "the whole world."


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

Cricklets....









Yup. Now stop the red herrings, the diversions, the need to change the subject to something we all agree on. It's a desperate move of one who realizes they have nothing to support their position.

The issue is not who has faith, the issue is did Jesus die for all as the Bible so clearly, so boldly, so undeniably, verbatim states? Or is the Bible wrong and the opposite is the case, that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few? You've had hundreds of opportunities to quote the verse that states Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few but so far you haven't found the verse. Dave, consider this: radical Calvinists have been looking for that verse for nearly 500 years and none of them have yet found it.

Stop the evasion... the constant attempt to change the subject to something we agree on.




.

Not a word about universal atonement in the entire Bible. Scripture only teaches Limited Atonement. But you saw the scriptures apart, trying to paint a new doctrine far removed from their context. Did you ever figure out how to get around John 10? Where Jesus tells the Pharisees he didn't die for them? And that is why they cannot believe.

 

[1689Dave]

Westminster Confession Chapter three: Election Limits the Atonement

1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b

a. 1 Sam 23:11-12; Mat 11:21, 23; Acts 15:18. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.b

a. Mat 25:41; 1 Tim 5:21. • b. Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6.

4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.a

a. John 13:18; 2 Tim 2:19.

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;b and all to the praise of his glorious grace.c

a. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:4, 9, 11; 1 Thes 5:9; 2 Tim 1:9. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16; Eph 1:4, 9. • c. Eph 1:6, 12.

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,b are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified,c and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.d Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.e

a. Eph 1:4-5; Eph 2:10; 2 Thes 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2. • b. 1 Thes 5:9-10; Titus 2:14. • c. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:5; 2 Thes 2:13. • d. 1 Pet 1:5. • e. John 6:64-65; 8:47; 10:26; 17:9; Rom 8:28-39; 1 John 2:19.

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.a

a. Mat 11:25-26; Rom 9:17-18, 21-22; 2 Tim 2:19-20; 1 Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4.

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.b So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;c and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.d

a. Deut 29:29; Rom 9:20. • b. 2 Pet 1:10. • c. Rom 11:33; Eph 1:6. • d. Luke 10:20; Rom 8:33; 11:5-6, 20; 2 Pet 1:10.

 

[Albion]

Not a word about universal atonement in the entire Bible. Scripture only teaches Limited Atonement. But you saw the scriptures apart, trying to paint a new doctrine far removed from their context. Did you ever figure out how to get around John 10? Where Jesus tells the Pharisees he didn't die for them? And that is why they cannot believe.

From Godslovewins.com

"As Elwell puts it, “It is true that the benefits of Christ’s death are referred to as belonging to the elect, his sheep, his people, but it would have to be shown that Christ died only for them. No one denies that Christ died for them. It is only denied that Christ died exclusively for them....”

"Robert Lightner similarly argues: “The task of harmonizing those various Scriptures poses a far greater problem for those who hold to a limited atonement than it does to those who hold to an unlimited position. Those who hold to an unlimited atonement recognize that some Scriptures emphasize the fact that Christ died for the elect, for the church, and for individual believers. However, they point out that when those verses single out a specific group they do not do so to the exclusion of any who are outside that group since dozens of other passages include them. The ‘limited’ passages are just emphasizing one aspect of a larger truth. In contrast, those who hold to a limited atonement have a far more difficult time explaining away the ‘unlimited’ passages.”

"The fact is, the Scriptures do not always include all aspects of a truth in any one passage. “If these texts are used in isolation to ‘prove’ that Christ died only for the elect, then it could be argued with equal logic from other isolated passages that Christ died only for Israel (cf. John 11:51; Isa. 53:8), or that He died only for the Apostle Paul (for Paul declares of Christ, ‘Who loved me, and gave himself for me,’ Gal. 2:20). As well might one contend that Christ restricted His prayers to Peter because of the fact that He said to Peter, ‘But I have prayed for thee’ (Luke 22:32).”

Does not the above capture the difference between the two sides here on CH?

 

[Josiah]

Predestination according to the Westminster Confession Chapter Three.

@1689Dave

Everything you copy/paste from this is entirely unrelated to the issue at hand.

This thread is not about predestination, it's about whether Jesus died for all OR He did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

You quoted not a word about Jesus NOT dying for all (probably not you).

You quoted not a word about Jesus dying ONLY for some unknown few (odd are, not you).

Not one of the verses referenced (but not quoted for reasons that are obvious) states that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

Nothing about Limited Atonement. Nothing in support of it. And I think we all know why.


The issue here is not predestination (whether the biblical view or the horrible radical Calvinist misunderstanding). The topic is this: Did Jesus die for all people (Universal Atonement) or did Jesus NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few (Limited Atonement)?

Please stop the red herrings.


Here are just some of the verses that state Jesus died "For all" "for everyone" "the whole world."


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses the copy/paste document references that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

None...
Not one...
Nothing...
Zip....








.

 

[1689Dave]

Everything you copy/paste from this is entirely unrelated to the issue at hand.

This thread is not about predestination, it's about whether Jesus died for all OR He did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

You quoted not a word about Jesus NOT dying for all (probably not you).

You quoted not a word about Jesus dying ONLY for some unknown few (odd are, not you).

Not one of the verses referenced (but not quoted for reasons that are obvious) states that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

Nothing about Limited Atonement. Nothing in support of it. And I think we all know why.


The issue here is not predestination (whether the biblical view or the horrible radical Calvinist misunderstanding). The topic is this: Did Jesus die for all people (Universal Atonement) or did Jesus NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few (Limited Atonement)?

Please stop the red herrings.


Here are just some of the verses that state Jesus died "For all" "for everyone" "the whole world."


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses the copy/paste document references that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

None...
Not one...
Nothing...
Zip....








.

If only the elect are saved, why would Christ die for those destined to hell?

 

[Josiah]

@1689Dave
@Origen
@Lamb
@Albion


DAVE,

There are MANY frustrating aspects to our conversations making it stunning that anyone here is still trying to discuss with you... But among them are the logical fallacies and diversions you employ. Although I'm 99% sure I'm wasting my (valuable) time, let me try to point out some of these.

1. In most of your threads, there is the almost constant use of red herrings. This is when ANOTHER issue is interjected into the debate. Some use this just for division, but often it's used with the premise that if one is right on a different point, ergo they're right on the issue at hand. You argue that if "free will" is wrong or perhaps if predestination is right then Limited Atonement is right. It's a logical fallacy. And frustrating. If ANY progress is even possible in our discussion, you need to stick to the issue - and not the constant changing of subjects.

2. I think your whole premise falls on a false idea that some radical, extreme Calvinists tend to approach: That the ONLY factor in personal justification is whether Christ died for you or not (and odds are, He didn't). It seems to be an underlying assumption the worst of them seem to hold (BTW, it's a false view that gave birth to Universalism, that movement is an off-shoot of radical Calvinism). This is very unbiblical and requires wholly evading ALL those verses that speak of the role of faith. The justification of a person rests on TWO things: The Cross and faith. It's not either/or, it's both/and. And YES, the first can exist for a person without the second of a person.

• I put myself through a LOT of years of college, my parents did not pay any tuition or college fees (they did help with housing and transportation). I took out no loans. I did this in large part with financial aid - all secured through the financial aid departments of the schools I attended. In one case, an officer told me that there are MILLIONS of dollars in aid out there every year that never gets used; it's THERE but never gets applied, THERE for the student but the student doesn't benefit. THERE but doesn't benefit the student. It's not used NOT because it's not there for them but never applied/apprehended/relied upon.
• The tax attorney that works with my company (and also with me personally) tells me there are MANY deductions, etc. available from the Government that many never use. Lots of deductions exist that aren't used. They are THERE but individual companies or individuals don't benefit from; THERE for them but not benefiting them. The "problem" is not on the Government's end but on the company's or individual's.
• Because of Covid, there are a LOT of programs by the Federal Government, the State, the County and the City meant to help businesses. A plethora of them, all THERE. Billions of dollars of them. I know that MANY of them have gone mostly untapped (or at least often so). The company I work for hired a company just to find and apply for these (they get 10% of whatever they find for us). So far, we're just over $250,000 in "free" money they've found so far (with promises MUCH more is coming) - none of which we even knew was available for us. It's THERE but it doesn't benefit you if you never apply it to yourself.
• Friend, you are making an absurd and fallacious apologetic to assume that just because something isn't yours ergo it's not available to you, not THERE, not real. It's an illogical and quite obviously wrong assumption ... and much of your apologetic depends entirely on it.

Friend, your fundamental argument that faith doesn't apply to personal justification is clearly unbiblical (but necessary to your apologetic). It's not EITHER the Cross OR faith, it's not either/or, it's both/and.

And you make yet another fallacious and unbiblical assertion that if faith is involved, ergo free will, Pelagianism, Arminianism and personal works are involved. I have heard this repeatedly from radical Calvinists but it's not true. In fact, most who hold to Universal Atonement are strong monergist who reject any form of synergism or Pelagianism (simply a historic fact). Faith need not be a creation of the dead, unregenerate, atheistic, totally deprived unsaved person.... indeed, it can be the work of God, the Gift of God (as indeed most who hold to Universal Atonement believe). It is absurd to insist that if faith is present, it can only be the work of the receiver - and you keep coming back to this fallacy - over and over and over and over again. It's obviously wrong.

You seem to have this very weird idea that questions are substantiation. Nope. Answers are. Instead of asking the same question - over and over - you need to give the substantiation for the answer you give. Questions are diversions, evasions.


.




.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave
@Origen
@Lamb
@Albion


DAVE,

There are MANY frustrating aspects to our conversations making it stunning that anyone here is still trying to discuss with you... But among them are the logical fallacies and diversions you employ. Although I'm 99% sure I'm wasting my (valuable) time, let me try to point out some of these.

1. In most of your threads, there is the almost constant use of red herrings. This is when ANOTHER issue is interjected into the debate. Some use this just for division, but often it's used with the premise that if one is right on a different point, ergo they're right on the issue at hand. You argue that if "free will" is wrong or perhaps if predestination is right then Limited Atonement is right. It's a logical fallacy. And frustrating. If ANY progress is even possible in our discussion, you need to stick to the issue - and not the constant changing of subjects.

2. I think your whole premise falls on a false idea that some radical, extreme Calvinists tend to approach: That the ONLY factor in personal justification is whether Christ died for you or not (and odds are, He didn't). It seems to be an underlying assumption the worst of them seem to hold (BTW, it's a false view that gave birth to Universalism, that movement is an off-shoot of radical Calvinism). This is very unbiblical and requires wholly evading ALL those verses that speak of the role of faith. The justification of a person rests on TWO things: The Cross and faith. It's not either/or, it's both/and. And YES, the first can exist for a person without the second of a person.

• I put myself through a LOT of years of college, my parents did not pay any tuition or college fees (they did help with housing and transportation). I took out no loans. I did this in large part with financial aid - all secured through the financial aid departments of the schools I attended. In one case, an officer told me that there are MILLIONS of dollars in aid out there every year that never gets used; it's THERE but never gets applied, THERE for the student but the student doesn't benefit. THERE but doesn't benefit the student. It's not used NOT because it's not there for them but never applied/apprehended/relied upon.
• The tax attorney that works with my company (and also with me personally) tells me there are MANY deductions, etc. available from the Government that many never use. Lots of deductions exist that aren't used. They are THERE but individual companies or individuals don't benefit from; THERE for them but not benefiting them. The "problem" is not on the Government's end but on the company's or individual's.
• Because of Covid, there are a LOT of programs by the Federal Government, the State, the County and the City meant to help businesses. A plethora of them, all THERE. Billions of dollars of them. I know that MANY of them have gone mostly untapped (or at least often so). The company I work for hired a company just to find and apply for these (they get 10% of whatever they find for us). So far, we're just over $250,000 in "free" money they've found - none of which we even knew was available for us. It's THERE but it doesn't benefit you if you never apply it to yourself.

Friend, you are making an absurd and fallacious apologetic to assume that just because something isn't yours ergo it's not available to you, not THERE, not real. It's an illogical and quite obviously wrong assumption ... and much of your whole apologetic depends entirely on it.

Friend, your fundamental argument that faith doesn't apply to personal justification is clearly unbiblical (but necessary to your apologetic). It's not EITHER the Cross OR faith, it's not either/or, it's both/and.

And you make yet another fallacious and unbiblical assertion that if faith is involved, ergo free will and Arminianism and personal works are involved. I have heard this repeatedly from radical Calvinists but it's not true. In fact, most who hold to Universal Atonement are strong monergist who reject any form of synergism or Pelagianism (simply a historic fact). Faith need not be a creation of the dead, unregenerate, atheistic, totally deprived unsaved.... indeed, it can be the work of God, the Gift of God (as indeed most who hold to Universal Atonement believe). It is absurd to insist that if faith is present, it can only be the work of the receiver - and you keep coming back to this fallacy. Over and over and over and over again. Even though all see right through it - and wonder why you keep using it.

You seem to have this very weird idea that questions are substantiation. Nope. Answers are, questions are not. Instead of asking the same question - over and over - you need to give the substantiation for the answer you give. Questions are diversions, evasions. Stop it.




.

You still have not answered how Jesus told the Pharisees in John 10 that he did not die for them, and that is why they cannot believe. This destroys all that you think about Christ's atonement.

 

[prism]

I disagree with Dave that if Christ died for one, that one is justified (narrow) regardless of whether they have faith or not.

I would disagree with Dave as well if in fact He actually said that...or is that the logical conclusion you draw out of his posts?

Nothing wrong if asking questions... the problem comes when insisting on answering them, with nothing in Scripture (or even Tradition) that says that - and even more when Scripture (and perhaps Tradition) states the exact opposite.

We're not going to violate 'sola Scriptura' and lean on Church Tradition are we?