The Doctrine of Limited Atonement Now in a Debate Approved Area.

1689Dave

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I realize you believe in what you say and welcome your replies. I used to believe like most and had a rough time with the Arminian eternal security bunch. But the Lord miraculously opened my eyes when I heard an accredited ThD seminary professor teaching against Limited Atonement. This was the first time I ever heard of the doctrine.

Somehow I heard the truth in it and broke off fellowship with them that night.
 
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1689Dave

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Outline and Proofs from the Bible

The overwhelming evidence from Scripture is that Christ came to save a very definite number of people (those given to him by the Father). In this regard, see the following texts:

Matt. 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Matt. 20:28 “… just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Matt. 26:28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

John 10:11, 15 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.”

Acts 13:48 “Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Acts 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

Rom. 8:32-34 “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.”

Eph. 5:25-27 “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

Heb. 2:17 “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.”

Heb. 9:15, 28 “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”

Rev. 5:9 “And they sang a new song, saying: You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”

The following survey may help you in tracing the purpose and scope of Christ’s saving work.

1. The Bible describes the purpose of Christ’s work as the full salvation of his people (that is, actual salvation, not just the possibility of it):

The Bible tells us that Christ came to actually save sinners, not to allow the success of His work to be determined by sinners.

Matt. 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Luke 19:10 “…for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

II Cor. 5:21 “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

I Peter 3:18 “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit.”

Gal. 1:3-4 “Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.”

I Tim. 1:15 “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.”

Titus 2:14 “…who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.”

The death of Christ actually reconciles sinners to God (remember that in each of these passages the author is writing to the Church of true believers).

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

II Cor. 5:18-21 “Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

Eph. 2:15-18 “…having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.”

Col. 1:20-22 “And by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and irreproachable in His sight ….”

Heb. 2:17 “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.”

The death of Christ actually justifies the believer because His shed blood was the propitiation for sin and was acceptable to God. Redemption is the actual setting free from the bondage of sin by the blood of Christ to serve the living God.

Rom. 3:24-25 “…being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed.”

Rom. 5:8-9 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.”

Rom. 5:18 “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.”

I Cor. 1:30 “But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God – and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”

Gal. 2:16 “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”

Gal. 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree).”

Gal. 4:4-5 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

Col. 1:13-14 “He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.”

Heb. 9:12 “Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

Heb. 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.”

I Pet. 1:18-19 “Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

I Pet. 2:24 “Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness – by whose stripes you were healed.”

I Jn. 1:7 “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”

Continued in #3.
 
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1689Dave

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Please see Post #2 above to begin.

Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is necessary for us to have true faith, and thereby to be saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit to regenerate and sanctify is actually given to all whom Christ died for.

John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said to him, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Acts 16:14 “Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.”

Eph. 1:13, 14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

Titus 3:5, 6 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior.”

I Cor. 1:30 “But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God – and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”

II Thess. 2:13 “But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”

Heb. 9:14 “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

I Pet. 1:2 “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.”

2. There are a number of Bible passages that give us a glimpse of the purpose of Christ in fulfilling the covenant with His Father made before the foundation of the world. In summary, Jesus laid down His life for those whom the Father had “given” to Him. Read John 6:35-40 and John 17 carefully.

3. Jesus is conscious of laying down His life for “His sheep.” Those who are not believers are not “His sheep” (Jn. 10:26).

John 10:24-29 “Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” (see also John 10:11,14-18 and Matthew 25:31-46)

3. In the High Priestly prayer of Christ, Jesus does not pray for the world in general, but for those who were given to him by his Father.

John 17:2, 6, 9, 11, 12, 24 “As You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”

4. Christ “justified” those for whom He died (Rom. 5:9). If Christ bore the sins of all men without exception, then all men are justified. If all men are justified, then they receive Christ by faith and are at peace with God (Rom. 5:1). All who are justified are likewise glorified (Rom. 8:30). It is clear from the Bible as well as from the world in which we live that many live and die at enmity with God and are lost eternally. If Christ died for all, then all would be justified, and none would be lost. We see from the Bible and our world that this is not true.



Blog post content is taken from Rev. Paul Treick’s book, Faith of Our Fathers, Living Still: A Study of the Five Points of Calvinism, available for purchase. It is posted with the gracious permission of the author. The Doctrine of Limited Atonement (8): Scriptural Proofs - Heidelberg Seminary

"You can want what you Will. But you cannot Will what you want."
 
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prism

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Ok, I'll bite.
I noticed 1 Jn 2:2 missing in the 'proof text' list. How would you handle it?

1 John 2:2 (KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I understand Calvin had a bit of difficulty with that verse.
 

1689Dave

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Ok, I'll bite.
I noticed 1 Jn 2:2 missing in the 'proof text' list. How would you handle it?

1 John 2:2 (KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I understand Calvin had a bit of difficulty with that verse.
If you were a first-century Jew. You would know salvation was only for the Jews. So when they heard that is was now for the whole world, they would know that gentiles were now savable. But just as most perished in Israel, most perish in the world also.

Revelation 5:9​

9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
 

prism

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If you were a first-century Jew. You would know salvation was only for the Jews. So when they heard that is was now for the whole world, they would know that gentiles were now savable. But just as most perished in Israel, most perish in the world also.
If I thought that way as a Jew, I would have to reconsider...Rahab, Namaan, Ruth, Darius- let alone Abram was a Gentile along with Enoch, Abel, Noah etc..
Many professing (not possessing) Christians will also perish.

Here is another hard nut to crack for the 'particular atoners'. (I have a few for the universal atoners as well).

2 Peter 2:1 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 

1689Dave

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If I thought that way as a Jew, I would have to reconsider...Rahab, Namaan, Ruth, Darius- let alone Abram was a Gentile along with Enoch, Abel, Noah etc..
Many professing (not possessing) Christians will also perish.

Here is another hard nut to crack for the 'particular atoners'. (I have a few for the universal atoners as well).

2 Peter 2:1 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Remember, the Jews are not a race. They are a religion. The gospel centered on the promise to Abraham. From then on it became the property of Israel until Christ abolished unbelieving physical Israel leaving only believers. Jesus said: “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” John 4:22 (KJV 1900)


“And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king’s commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.” Esther 8:17 (KJV 1900)

> 2 Peter 2:1 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even [Greek = Also] denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

“Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? Is not he thy father that hath bought thee? Hath he not made thee, and established thee?” Deuteronomy 32:6 (KJV 1900) This is in a non-redemptive sense.

“Fear and dread will fall on them; by the greatness of your arm they will be as still as stone until your people pass by, O LORD, until the people whom you have bought pass by.” (Exodus 15:16) This is in a non-redemptive sense.

Peter is comparing the false prophets of old to the false teachers. "There were among the people" etc.
 
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prism

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Remember, the Jews are not a race. They are a religion. The gospel centered on the promise to Abraham. From then on it became the property of Israel until Christ abolished unbelieving physical Israel leaving only believers. Jesus said: “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” John 4:22 (KJV 1900)


“And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king’s commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.” Esther 8:17 (KJV 1900)

> 2 Peter 2:1 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even [Greek = Also] denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

“Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? Is not he thy father that hath bought thee? Hath he not made thee, and established thee?” Deuteronomy 32:6 (KJV 1900) This is in a non-redemptive sense.

“Fear and dread will fall on them; by the greatness of your arm they will be as still as stone until your people pass by, O LORD, until the people whom you have bought pass by.” (Exodus 15:16) This is in a non-redemptive sense.

Peter is comparing the false prophets of old to the false teachers. "There were among the people" etc.
well).

2 Peter 2:1 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
In what sense if not a redemptive sense? ‘Swift destruction’ sounds like a tie-in to redemption.
Why would their heresies be considered ’damnable’ if not tied in with Christ’s redemptive work?
 

1689Dave

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In what sense if not a redemptive sense? ‘Swift destruction’ sounds like a tie-in to redemption.
Why would their heresies be considered ’damnable’ if not tied in with Christ’s redemptive work?
ἀγοράζω.*

From ἀγορά, “market,” this means “to buy,” and is often used in the NT in relation to commercial life.

Büchsel, F. (1964–). ἁγοράζω, ἐξαγοράζω. In G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 1, p. 125). Eerdmans.

Only a few times in Revelation it is used redemptively. But always as in the marketplace in the rest of scripture. The definite atonement passages require its non-redemptive definition in this case.
 

prism

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ἀγοράζω.*

From ἀγορά, “market,” this means “to buy,” and is often used in the NT in relation to commercial life.

Büchsel, F. (1964–). ἁγοράζω, ἐξαγοράζω. In G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 1, p. 125). Eerdmans.

Only a few times in Revelation it is used redemptively. But always as in the marketplace in the rest of scripture. The definite atonement passages require its non-redemptive definition in this case.
Well Gal 4:5 has for 'redeem'...


(CWSB Dictionary) 1805. ἐξαγοράζω exagorázō; fut. exagorásō, from ek (G1537), out or from, and agorázō (G0059), to buy. To buy out of, redeem from. Used of our redemption by Christ from the curse and yoke of the Law (Gal. 3:13; 4:5). To redeem as spoken of time (Eph. 5:16; Col. 4:5). The same phrase is used in the Gr. version of Dan. 2:8, meaning that you are gaining or protracting time. Similarly to be understood in Eph. 5:16, "because the days are evil," or afflicting and abounding in troubles and persecutions. This sense of the expression is still more evident in Col. 4:5 as "redeeming the time" by prudent and blameless conduct, gaining as much time and opportunity as possible in view of persecution and death. The word generally means to buy up, to buy all that is anywhere to be bought, and not to allow the suitable moment to pass by unheeded but to make it one's own.

and Titus 2:14 has...


(CWSB Dictionary) 3084. λυτρόω lutróō; contracted lutrṓ, fut. lutrṓsō, from lútron (G3083), a ransom. To bring forward a ransom. The act. verb is not used of him who gives, but of him who receives it; hence to release on receipt of a ransom. In the mid. voice, to release by payment of a ransom, to redeem; in the pass., to be redeemed or ransomed. Thus lutróō means to receive a ransom. In the NT, used in the mid. voice in Luke 24:21; Titus 2:14; it denotes that aspect of the Savior's work wherein He appears as the Redeemer of mankind from bondage (1 Pet. 1:18). This bondage was still regarded quite generally as oppression in Luke 24:21 because of the deficient understanding of Christ's death by the Emmaus disciples.

two different words, so I guess you have to go to the context.
 

1689Dave

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Well Gal 4:5 has for 'redeem'...


(CWSB Dictionary) 1805. ἐξαγοράζω exagorázō; fut. exagorásō, from ek (G1537), out or from, and agorázō (G0059), to buy. To buy out of, redeem from. Used of our redemption by Christ from the curse and yoke of the Law (Gal. 3:13; 4:5). To redeem as spoken of time (Eph. 5:16; Col. 4:5). The same phrase is used in the Gr. version of Dan. 2:8, meaning that you are gaining or protracting time. Similarly to be understood in Eph. 5:16, "because the days are evil," or afflicting and abounding in troubles and persecutions. This sense of the expression is still more evident in Col. 4:5 as "redeeming the time" by prudent and blameless conduct, gaining as much time and opportunity as possible in view of persecution and death. The word generally means to buy up, to buy all that is anywhere to be bought, and not to allow the suitable moment to pass by unheeded but to make it one's own.

and Titus 2:14 has...


(CWSB Dictionary) 3084. λυτρόω lutróō; contracted lutrṓ, fut. lutrṓsō, from lútron (G3083), a ransom. To bring forward a ransom. The act. verb is not used of him who gives, but of him who receives it; hence to release on receipt of a ransom. In the mid. voice, to release by payment of a ransom, to redeem; in the pass., to be redeemed or ransomed. Thus lutróō means to receive a ransom. In the NT, used in the mid. voice in Luke 24:21; Titus 2:14; it denotes that aspect of the Savior's work wherein He appears as the Redeemer of mankind from bondage (1 Pet. 1:18). This bondage was still regarded quite generally as oppression in Luke 24:21 because of the deficient understanding of Christ's death by the Emmaus disciples.

two different words, so I guess you have to go to the context.
Greek words have a wide area of meaning. The idea is to pick the definition that fits best. In this case, the basic non-redemptive definition is best. Peter is comparing them to OT Israel whom God obviously bought in a non-redemptive sense.

If the false teachers were bought in a redemptive sense, they would not have been false teachers. Use the definition that fits them best which is the same non-redemptive sense as the false teachers of old whom God bought out of Egypt. How could those people have been redeemed? They ate their children at times. It took 40 years in the wilderness to make an 11-day journey because of their wickedness. Yet it says God bought them just as Peter says God bought the false teachers.
 
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1689Dave

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John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

So, the reason the Pharisees Jesus spoke to did not believe, is because he did not die for them.
 

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@1689Dave
@prism


As Dave as proven, he doesn't have any verse - not one - that proclaims Limited Atonement, that Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few. Lots of verses, none of them saying what he does.


Here's what the Bible states:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.



prism said:
2 Peter 2:1 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Correct. As has been noted to Dave before, here is an example of one FOR WHOM JESUS DIED but who was not saved. Justification requires not only that Jesus died for them but also that they have faith; if there is no faith there is no promise of salvation. A lack of salvation does not prove Scripture is wrong in proclaiming Christ died for all, it simply confirms the Scripture is right and that without faith there is no promise of salvation.




.
 
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1689Dave

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@1689Dave
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As Dave as proven, he doesn't have any verse - not one - that proclaims Limited Atonement, that Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few. Lots of verses, none of them saying what he does.


Here's what the Bible states:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.



.
Unless you consider all the scriptures, you are not playing with a full deck. :) BTW, did you know Jesus told some Pharisees he did not die for them? Read my post and you'll learn more than that.
 

Josiah

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Unless you consider all the scriptures, you are not playing with a full deck.
Well, again, once again....

I'll quote just some of the verses that specifically state Universal Atonement - that Jesus died for all people.
And then you can quote those that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.


Here are just some of the verses that state Jesus died "For all" "for everyone" "the whole world."


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

Cricklets....




1689Dave said:
id you know Jesus told some Pharisees he did not die for them?


I know you've repeatedly claimed that. And also that you can't find the verse that says that. We're waiting for "I did not die for Pharisees" or even "I did not die for you." You've claimed it, Scripture never states it. We all know that.






.

 
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Well, again, once again....

I'll quote just some of the verses that specifically state Universal Atonement - that Jesus died for all people.
And then you can quote those that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.
They do not teach what you assume they do. Because all of the passages I posted limit the atonement to the elect. Besides, you need to read your verses as a first-century Jew would. "World" is about the promises God made to Abraham about saving Jews and Gentiles alike. Any Jew knew that salvation was only for the Jews until God started saving gentiles too. So where is your universal atonement in the damnation of all but Jews?
 
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Josiah

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Because all of the passages I posted limit the atonement to the elect.

No they don't, as anyone who can read knows.

You ASSUME that if something is true for some it ergo is not for others. This is beyond absurd. It's entirely illogical.

Again, yet again, still another time: IF I said "men can vote in the US" that doesn't prove ergo women cannot. If I post that Subaru makes cars, that does not prove ergo Ford does not. "Elect" is a subset of people.

We have SO MANY verses that clearly, obviously, undeniably, VERBATIM state "ALL" and "EVERYONE." To mitigate that, you'd need equally clear and obvious verses that state, "NOT all, NOT everyone, ONLY some." And you don't have even one that remotely says that.





.



 

1689Dave

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No they don't, as anyone who can read knows.

You ASSUME that if something is true for some it ergo is not for others. This is beyond absurd. It's entirely illogical.

Again, yet again, still another time: IF I said "men can vote in the US" that doesn't prove ergo women cannot. If I post that Subaru makes cars, that does not prove ergo Ford does not. "Elect" is a subset of people.

We have SO MANY verses that clearly, obviously, undeniably, VERBATIM state "ALL" and "EVERYONE." To mitigate that, you'd need equally clear and obvious verses that state, "NOT all, NOT everyone, ONLY some." And you don't have even one that remotely says that.





.
But, they are one-sided attempts to prove your point. So where is your universal atonement in the damnation of all but Jews?
 

Josiah

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But, they are one-sided attempts to prove your point. So where is your universal atonement in the damnation of all but Jews?


Another red herring? Yet another? Oh my.

If people don't have faith, they are damned. Do you disagree? Never mind, obviously that's another subject for another thread.



But try, my brother, TRY to stay on topic and stop trying to change the subject to something you CAN defend. Try it.

Here's the issue before us: Do Scriptures state that Jesus died for all people OR do Scriptures that that's not true, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few. That's the topic. That's the issue.



Here are just some of the Scriptures that state Universal Atonement:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few...

Cricklets....


Your point about Jesus dying for planets rather than people.... that Jesus died for non-sinners.... that Jesus died for the Elect.... that faith is irrelevent to salvation, none of that shows that all those passages above are false and wrong, none of them prove that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.



.
 

Albion

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No they don't, as anyone who can read knows.

You ASSUME that if something is true for some it ergo is not for others. This is beyond absurd. It's entirely illogical.

You're right about that, but our Unitarian friend specializes in it. I am reminded, for example, of his posts about infant baptism and Scripture.

If there is a case in the New Testament in which an adult is described as speaking with a believer about baptism...and then IS baptized, that exchange is assumed to mean that ONLY adults can be baptized. It's the same illogical argument you've identified with this subject here.
 
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