Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

[1689Dave]

Another way to put it is, are you saved because you chose to believe? Or did you spontaneously believe because you are saved? In view of this, I believe if a person must choose to believe, it is because they don't believe. But if you believe spontaneously, apart from any act of the will, it is a reaction to the new birth of your heart that causes you to believe.

This also plays into the theory of Universal Atonement that doesn't save a single soul. It supposedly clears the way for people to save themselves upon choosing to believe or practice Sacradolalism. Limited Atonement on the other hand demolishes your sin so God can justly save you by sending His Spirit into your heart causing you to believe.

Whoever believes has eternal life. This means Christ demolished your sins on the Cross so God could justly save you. Your spontaneous faith is evidence of this.

 

[Lamb]

I'm saved because Jesus died on the cross, my sins are forgiven and God gave me faith to trust in that promise.

 

[1689Dave]

I'm saved because Jesus died on the cross, my sins are forgiven and God gave me faith to trust in that promise.

If He died for all as you say, why aren't they saved?

 

[Lamb]

If He died for all as you say, why aren't they saved?

Because not all want it. They don't trust it. Rejection of God and forgiveness of sins is what damns them. That doesn't make them a savior at all but someone damned.

 

[1689Dave]

Because not all want it. They don't trust it. Rejection of God and forgiveness of sins is what damns them. That doesn't make them a savior at all but someone damned.

So, you are the savior of yourself = Pelagianism.

 

[Lamb]

So, you are the savior of yourself = Pelagianism.

NO, you haven't proven anything by repeatedly saying that. Universal atonement does not depend on ME doing anything.

 

[1689Dave]

NO, you haven't proven anything by repeatedly saying that. Universal atonement does not depend on ME doing anything.

Then how were you saved doing nothing?

 

[Lamb]

Then how were you saved doing nothing?

Salvation is completely by God's grace. That's how.

 

[1689Dave]

Salvation is completely by God's grace. That's how.

So he saves you apart from anything you contribute. You wake up born again and in experiencing the Holy Spirit you believe? Why doesn't everyone he supposedly died for do this?

 

[Lamb]

So he saves you apart from anything you contribute. You wake up born again and in experiencing the Holy Spirit you believe? Why doesn't everyone he supposedly died for do this?

God works through means.

Jesus' death on the cross is one means.

Hearing the Gospel preached is another means.

You asked this before and I answered that the bible doesn't tell us why God doesn't keep pursuing those who reject Him and at some point He lets them damn themselves. It isn't in the bible as to why.

But that doesn't mean that we save ourselves in any way. It's completely God's doing.

 

[1689Dave]

God works through means.

Jesus' death on the cross is one means.

Hearing the Gospel preached is another means.

You asked this before and I answered that the bible doesn't tell us why God doesn't keep pursuing those who reject Him and at some point He lets them damn themselves. It isn't in the bible as to why.

But that doesn't mean that we save ourselves in any way. It's completely God's doing.

You still use your perceived means as a way for saving yourself.

 

[Lamb]

You still use your perceived means as a way for saving yourself.

Could you elaborate on that false claim? I've already said that it's God who saves me 100%. I have done nothing.

 

[Josiah]

This also plays into the theory of Universal Atonement that doesn't save a single soul. It supposedly clears the way for people to save themselves upon choosing to believe or practice Sacradolalism. Limited Atonement on the other hand demolishes your sin so God can justly save you by sending His Spirit into your heart causing you to believe.

No matter how many threads you start, you are still wrong.


UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT teaches that Jesus died for all, for all people, for everyone.
Here are the verses:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


LIMITED ATONEMENT teaches that Jesus died ONLY for an unknown FEW people.
Here are the verses

Crickets.... there are no verses that state that.



.

 

[Josiah]

If He died for all as you say, why aren't they saved?

@1689Dave


Because, like Universalist, you are just dismissing faith.
Extreme Calvinists (just like the Universalists that split off from them) think all that matters is the Cross, faith is irrelevant.
You both make the same mistake. Dismissing faith.


"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (the Incarnation, the Cross) that whosoever believes in Him will not parish but have everlasting life." Radical Calvinists (and their off-spring, the Universalists) simply delete the "whosoever believes" part. YES, if faith is irrelevant and unnecessary, then your question makes sense because then an impliation of Universal Atonement would be that all are saved. But NONE that embrace Universal Atonement dismiss faith, none of them have any reason to delete part of John 3:16. As stated MANY times to you, Universal Atonement teaches that Jesus died for all (as the Bible so often, so clearly, verbatim says), it does not teach that ergo all are saved (Scripture actually gives examples, stating Jesus died for someone who was not saved).

Faith matters, my friend. It is not irrelevant. The Lutheran view is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA. Radical Calvinists simply delete the faith part, as as their children, the universalists, do. But Scripture is equally clear on that: faith matters, there is no salvation without faith in Christ.

Now, please save us from the absurd and you know wrong accusation that if we agree with Scripture that faith is essential, ergo we disagree with Scripture that faith is the work of God, the gift of God. We aren't the ones insisting Scripture is wrong and MUST "mean" the exact opposite of what it says. No, that's your position.


Universal Atonement is true because that exactly echos what the Bible so often states.
Faith matters because that exactly echos what the Bible states.
Faith is the gift, the work of God because that exactly echos what the Bible states.


Your claim that Jesus died for planets, not people is absurd.
Your claim that all those verses are lies and that Jesus did not die for all but only for a few is baseless and horrible.
Your claim that faith is irrelevant (a view you share with universalists) is just wrong.
Your claim that if faith exists, it cannot be given by God but must be given to self by self is heresy.



Your horrible, terrifying embrace of radical, extreme Calvinism is clearly unbiblical. I stand with Scripture. And 2000 years of Christian faith.




.

 

[Albion]

But if you believe spontaneously, apart from any act of the will, it is a reaction to the new birth of your heart that causes you to believe.

Who, exactly, believes "spontaneously" in something that has not been presented to him by any outside source?

 

[1689Dave]

Who, exactly, believes "spontaneously" in something that has not been presented to him by any outside source?

God sends the Holy Spirit into the hearts of the elect. Called the New Birth. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” Romans 8:16 (KJV 1900). This presence in the heart causes us to believe.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


Because, like Universalist, you are just dismissing faith.
Extreme Calvinists (just like the Universalists that split off from them) think all that matters is the Cross, faith is irrelevant.
You both make the same mistake. Dismissing faith.


"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (the Incarnation, the Cross) that whosoever believes in Him will not parish but have everlasting life." Radical Calvinists (and their off-spring, the Universalists) simply delete the "whosoever believes" part. YES, if faith is irrelevant and unnecessary, then your question makes sense because then an impliation of Universal Atonement would be that all are saved. But NONE that embrace Universal Atonement dismiss faith, none of them have any reason to delete part of John 3:16. As stated MANY times to you, Universal Atonement teaches that Jesus died for all (as the Bible so often, so clearly, verbatim says), it does not teach that ergo all are saved (Scripture actually gives examples, stating Jesus died for someone who was not saved).

Faith matters, my friend. It is not irrelevant. The Lutheran view is SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA. Radical Calvinists simply delete the faith part, as as their children, the universalists, do. But Scripture is equally clear on that: faith matters, there is no salvation without faith in Christ.

Now, please save us from the absurd and you know wrong accusation that if we agree with Scripture that faith is essential, ergo we disagree with Scripture that faith is the work of God, the gift of God. We aren't the ones insisting Scripture is wrong and MUST "mean" the exact opposite of what it says. No, that's your position.


Universal Atonement is true because that exactly echos what the Bible so often states.
Faith matters because that exactly echos what the Bible states.
Faith is the gift, the work of God because that exactly echos what the Bible states.


Your claim that Jesus died for planets, not people is absurd.
Your claim that all those verses are lies and that Jesus did not die for all but only for a few is baseless and horrible.
Your claim that faith is irrelevant (a view you share with universalists) is just wrong.
Your claim that if faith exists, it cannot be given by God but must be given to self by self is heresy.



Your horrible, terrifying embrace of radical, extreme Calvinism is clearly unbiblical. I stand with Scripture. And 2000 years of Christian faith.




.

You cannot escape the fact that Universal Atonement demands salvation by works in order to succeed. This is Pelagianism.

 

[1689Dave]

No matter how many threads you start, you are still wrong.


UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT teaches that Jesus died for all, for all people, for everyone.
Here are the verses:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


LIMITED ATONEMENT teaches that Jesus died ONLY for an unknown FEW people.
Here are the verses

Crickets.... there are no verses that state that.



.

You are ignoring all the verses that say he did not. This is not sound exegesis.

 

[1689Dave]

Could you elaborate on that false claim? I've already said that it's God who saves me 100%. I have done nothing.

You must respond to save yourself in the UA sense.

 

[Albion]

God sends the Holy Spirit into the hearts of the elect. Called the New Birth. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” Romans 8:16 (KJV 1900). This presence in the heart causes us to believe.

How come we never hear of people living in remote areas of the world which are not Christian and who have never met a missionary or read a pamphlet dealing with Christ who suddenly are convinced that he must be the one true God?