Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.

[1689Dave]

Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.



In the end, Pelagius taught that people save themselves through obedience. That Christ didn’t save anyone. People must save themselves through works. The council of Ephesus condemned this as heresy and affirmed Augustinianism the truth according to the scriptures. “Augustine spilled much ink responding to Pelagius. He simply says back to Pelagius, quoting Romans 9:16 that it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God’s mercy.”

“For Pelagius to be right, Augustine said, we have to flip that around. Imagine if Romans 9:16 read this way: it depends not on God’s mercy, but on human will. Augustine said if that were the case, we would all be doomed. But that’s not the case. And our God is a God full of mercy and full of grace. Our salvation does not depend on human will or human exertion, but it depends on God’s mercy.”

https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/5...tephen-nichols/augustine-the-triumph-of-grace

All the Reformers were Augustinians as well as most Protestants.

But the problem today is the Pelagianism found in the idea that Jesus didn’t save anyone on the cross. He only made it possible for everyone to save themselves as Pelagius taught.

Free will is a necessary ingredient of this. That is, salvation is available to all, but only those who freely choose to be obedient God saves. This is essentially a Pelagian understanding of salvation as it turns out.

Luther proved Free Will to be a lie in his irrefutable book “Bondage of the Will.”

Free will (Pelagianism), though condemned as heresy at Ephesus remains the key doctrine of the Roman Catholic and other like-minded churches. Anyone is free to take the sacraments and save themselves. Just as anyone is free to pick up a penny on the sidewalk. But in this case, the Church and the sacraments replace Christ as the savior and make you your own savior.

Other non-sacramental means still rely on the myth of free will to make human-produced faith the means of salvation. But they still end with salvation by works since the person causes the faith they supposedly save themselves with. Faith is not of human origin. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can believe in the biblical sense. And the works that come from this faith come from a new heart God creates in His elect. They act like Christians just as a cat acts like a cat, because of their nature.

The mention of the elect proves Christ died only for them since they are the only subjects marked out for salvation by God. We can recognize Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and the host of reformers whom God used to free us from the false savior of universal atonement and its most necessary ingredient, free will.

 

[Lamb]

You totally misunderstand the Lutheran understanding of Universal Atonement. In no way does it say that MAN has to do something after Jesus died on the cross for his sins in order to achieve salvation.

Objectively we are forgiven at the cross because of Jesus' death and His resurrection.

Not everyone will benefit from it though because those who reject the Savior damn themselves.

It is by grace through faith that we are saved.

God set forth the plan that Jesus' death forgives our sin, but the next step is that God gives faith by hearing the word as preached by the Gospel. Man receives and it's not up to man's decision, good works, etc... it's 100% God's doing.

Do you understand this position now?

 

[1689Dave]

You totally misunderstand the Lutheran understanding of Universal Atonement. In no way does it say that MAN has to do something after Jesus died on the cross for his sins in order to achieve salvation.

Objectively we are forgiven at the cross because of Jesus' death.

Not everyone will benefit from it though because those who reject the Savior damn themselves.

It is by grace through faith that we are saved.

God set forth the plan that Jesus' death forgives our sin, but the next step is that God gives faith by hearing the word as preached by the Gospel. Man receives and it's not up to man's decision, good works, etc... it's 100% God's doing.

Do you understand this position now?

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” John 17:9 (KJV 1900)

Why would Jesus pray for the elect and not the world?

 

[brightfame52]

You totally misunderstand the Lutheran understanding of Universal Atonement. In no way does it say that MAN has to do something after Jesus died on the cross for his sins in order to achieve salvation.

Objectively we are forgiven at the cross because of Jesus' death.

Not everyone will benefit from it though because those who reject the Savior damn themselves.

It is by grace through faith that we are saved.

God set forth the plan that Jesus' death forgives our sin, but the next step is that God gives faith by hearing the word as preached by the Gospel. Man receives and it's not up to man's decision, good works, etc... it's 100% God's doing.

Do you understand this position now?

Thats a contradiction. If you say everyone was objectively forgiven at the Cross because of Jesus death for them, how then say they can be lost because of their rejection of Christ ? Thats saying what they do, trumps what Christs death did. Besides, their rejection of Him should have been objectively forgiven at the Cross, for its nothing short of sin.

 

[1689Dave]

Let's pinpoint the problem with universal atonement. First, it saves no one, this is identical to Pelagianism. Secondly, you must respond in obedience to save yourself. This is also one with Pelagianism. And it spells salvation by works, just as Pelagianism does.

 

[brightfame52]

Rejection of Christ is forgiven if He died for one that rejects Him. He forgives them and then grants them repentance, a change of mind Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Its quite evident that Christ prayed for the forgiveness of some of those that rejected Him Lk 23:34


Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

 

[brightfame52]

Let's pinpoint the problem with universal atonement. First, it saves no one, this is identical to Pelagianism. Secondly, you must respond in obedience to save yourself. This is also one with Pelagianism. And it spells salvation by works, just as Pelagianism does.

Yes, but scripture teaches that we are saved by the obedience of one Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

To be made righteous is salvation and acceptance with God based upon Christs One obedience unto death, even the death of the Cross Phil 2:8

 

[Lamb]

Thats a contradiction. If you say everyone was objectively forgiven at the Cross because of Jesus death for them, how then say they can be lost because of their rejection of Christ ? Thats saying what they do, trumps what Christs death did. Besides, their rejection of Him should have been objectively forgiven at the Cross, for its nothing short of sin.

Not everyone has salvation because of Christ's death...which sin is not forgiven? Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which in itself is rejection of God and the forgiveness won at the cross. God gives faith so we can believe, but those who refuse Him remain in their disbelief and damn themselves. They don't receive the forgiveness that was won for all, just not given to them because they don't want it and don't believe in it. They look to themselves instead.

 

[1689Dave]

Not everyone has salvation because of Christ's death...which sin is not forgiven? Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which in itself is rejection of God and the forgiveness won at the cross. God gives faith so we can believe, but those who refuse Him remain in their disbelief and damn themselves. They don't receive the forgiveness that was won for all, just not given to them because they don't want it and don't believe in it. They look to themselves instead.

= you are the savior. = Pelagianism.

 

[Albion]

Not Even Pelagius believed that!

 

[Albion]

Thats a contradiction. If you say everyone was objectively forgiven at the Cross because of Jesus death for them, how then say they can be lost because of their rejection of Christ ?

There is no contradiction here. NO ONE was right with God prior to Christ's saving work. But that doesn't mean everyone has a free license to sin at will during the whole of their lives since they have lived life with free tickets to heaven in hand. No. And nothing Christ ever taught backs up that ridiculous claim, either! But Christ's sacrifice DID make POSSIBLE the salvation of humans.

 

[brightfame52]

lamb

Not everyone has salvation because of Christ's death

Of course not since He didnt die for everyone. Do you deny that those He died for were saved by His death ?

..which sin is not forgiven? Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which in itself is rejection of God and the forgiveness won at the cross.

If Christ didnt die for one, no sin is forgiven, not even a evil thought that passes through ones mind.

If Christ died for an individual, all sin is forgiven, for Christs sake 1 Jn 2:12

12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Thats saying what they do, trumps what Christs death did. Besides, their rejection of Him should have been objectively forgiven at the Cross, for its nothing short of sin.

Now dont change. Was their sin objectively forgiven at the Cross or Not ?

You stated earlier:

"Objectively we are forgiven at the cross because of Jesus' death."

So tell us plainly, are sins objectively forgiven at the Cross, or not, or they should have been ?

 

[brightfame52]

albion

There is no contradiction here. NO ONE was right with God prior to Christ's saving work.

Thats false, Abraham was Justified before and and had righteousness imputed to him before the Cross Rom 4:1-3

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

! But Christ's sacrifice DID make POSSIBLE the salvation of humans.

False, the scripture doesnt teach Christs sacrifice made salvation possible, thats a horrible thing to say about Christs saving death, it strips Him of His Saving efficacy.

Christs death alone saved sinners, Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Albion]

albion

Yes. Hi there!

Thats false, Abraham was Justified before and and had righteousness imputed to him before the Cross Rom 4:1-3

Abraham was not permitted into heaven after death, however. He and other 'greats' of the OT had to wait until Christ completed his work. His eternal destiny may have been set in his own lifetime, but the payoff required Christ to come and pay the penalty for sin on behalf of all mankind.

False, the scripture doesnt teach Christs sacrifice made salvation possible,

Of course it does.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I don't doubt it for a minute!

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. Hi there!


Abraham was not permitted into heaven after death, however. He and other 'greats' of the OT had to wait until Christ completed his work. His eternal destiny may have been set in his own lifetime, but the payoff required Christ to come and pay the penalty for sin on behalf of all mankind.


Of course it does.


I don't doubt it for a minute!

Abraham was made righteous, saved by the death of Christ.

 

[Albion]

Abraham was made righteous, saved by the death of Christ.

That's quite a change from your previous answer, here:

"...Abraham was Justified before and had righteousness imputed to him before the Cross" Rom 4:1-3

 

[brightfame52]

That's quite a change from your previous answer, here:

"...Abraham was Justified before and had righteousness imputed to him before the Cross" Rom 4:1-3

Its the same thing.

 

[Albion]

Its the same thing.

Before Christ and after the death of Christ are not "the same thing."

 

[brightfame52]

Before Christ and after the death of Christ are not "the same thing."

Christs death saved sinners and made them righteous before His death as well as following His death. The Ot Saints looked forward to the Cross, for instance, Isaiah saw the death of Christ for many Isa 53:1-12 and Saints today look back at the Cross. Do you deny that Abraham was Justified before God based on the death and blood of Christ ?

 

[Albion]

Christs death saved sinners and made them righteous before His death as well as following His death.

Now you've come up with the third different version of your stance on this matter. Why don't I just pretend that you have something or other in mind, and we can let it go at that?