Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.

[Albion]

Hint: The topic is Universal Atonement.

Fine, but the two concepts appear to have been confused during the course of the discussion.

 

[Josiah]

Universal atonement is a form of Pelagianism.

This is Universal Atonement: JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE.
Now, underline the words in that which state, "PEOPLE MUST DO STUFF"

I've asked you to do that many times and you always refused. I think we all know why.
Your opinion is silly and entirely, completely baseless.
We all know that.
You too.

So why you keep saying something everyone (including you) KNOW is wrong, well.... it's beyond absurd.





.

 

[Josiah]

@1689Dave


Universal Atonement:
The echo of Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people.

Here are just some of the Scriptures that state that:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Limited Atonement:
The insistence that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

The Scriptures that state that:

None. Crickets.


Clearly, if we actually READ the verses and BELIEVE rather than repudiate and denounce them, we know... Jesus died for all, for all people, for everyone. Because that's EXACTLY, VERBATIM what the Bible says. Over and over again. And never the contrary. I think it's wise to believe what the Bible so often states and not the opposite that it never states. We disagree on that, of course.


Universal Atonement: Jesus died for all.
Limited Atonement: No! Jesus died for ONLY some unknown FEW.

You are not balancing the verses that teach Limited Atonement against your cherry-picked one-sided collection of verses.

You are spiritually blind to the Limited Atonement verses.

As you've proven, there aren't any. You've been asked many times to quote even one verse that states that Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY for some unknown few. To give even one verse that states your position. But you've never offered that. No uber-Calvinists has found that verse in nearly 500 years. I think we all know why.

You keep talking about all these verses that state, "No Jesus did not die for all but only for an unknown few" but you simply will not quote that verse or verses. You refuse to do it. Like all radical Calvinists do, and have for almost 500 years. We all know why.



@DPMartin

No one here is promoting or defending free-will. Indeed, Lamb, Origen, Albion and myself are all on record passionately rejecting that; we're all strict monergists. The issue is this: Does Scripture state that Jesus died for all people or does it state that's not true, Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few. That's the issue of Universal Atonement vs. Limited Atonement. Dave has tried to say that the view of 'JESUS DIED FOR ALL' is instead "FOLKS GOTTA DO A BUNCH OF THINGS TO BE SAVED" but as all know, 'JESUS DIED FOR ALL" does not say 'FOLKS GOTTA DO A BUNCH OF STUFF TO BE SAVED.' The doctrine in that Jesus died for all. He knows that. We all do.




.

 

[1689Dave]

This is Universal Atonement: JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE.
Now, underline the words in that which state, "PEOPLE MUST DO STUFF"

I've asked you to do that many times and you always refused. I think we all know why.
Your opinion is silly and entirely, completely baseless.
We all know that.
You too.

So why you keep saying something everyone (including you) KNOW is wrong, well.... it's beyond absurd.





.

What did you do to be saved, since your brand of atonement didn't save you?

 

[1689Dave]

Fine, but the two concepts appear to have been confused during the course of the discussion.

It is clearly about universal atonement.

 

[Josiah]

What did you do to be saved,

Nothing. Jesus does the saving.


Now, back to the subject. Does Scripture state that Jesus died for all OR does it state that's false, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few? Which is it? Universal Atonement or Limited Atonement? Let's see....


Universal Atonement:
The echo of Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people.

Here are just some of the Scriptures that state that:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Limited Atonement:
The insistence that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

The Scriptures that state that:

None. Crickets.






.

 

[1689Dave]

Nothing. Jesus does the saving.


Now, back to the subject. Does Scripture state that Jesus died for all OR does it state that's false, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few? Which is it? Universal Atonement or Limited Atonement? Let's see....


Universal Atonement:
The echo of Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people.

Here are just some of the Scriptures that state that:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Limited Atonement:
The insistence that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

The Scriptures that state that:

None. Crickets.






.

It says Jesus paid for the sins of the elect only when comparing all verses.

 

[Josiah]

It says Jesus paid for the sins of the elect only

Then quote the verse that states, "Jesus died for only the Elect." Since your entire position depends on that verse, that word "ONLY" to try to repudiate the many that say 'ALL' 'EVERYONE' then quote the verse you say exists, the verse that states, "Jesus died ONLY for the Elect."

But no one here is going to wait for that. Because all of us - including you - know that verse doesn't exist.


So, the issue is, does Scripture teach that Jesus died for all (Universal Atonement) OR does it state that's not true, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few? Let's see....

Universal Atonement:
The echo of Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people.

Just some of the Scriptures that state that:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Limited Atonement:
The insistence that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

The Scriptures that state that:

None. Crickets.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Then quote the verse that states, "Jesus died for only the Elect." Since your entire position depends on that verse, that word "ONLY" to try to repudiate the many that say 'ALL' 'EVERYONE' then quote the verse you say exists, the verse that states, "Jesus died ONLY for the Elect."

But no one here is going to wait for that. Because all of us - including you - know that verse doesn't exist.


So, the issue is, does Scripture teach that Jesus died for all (Universal Atonement) OR does it state that's not true, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few? Let's see....

Universal Atonement:
The echo of Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people.

Just some of the Scriptures that state that:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Limited Atonement:
The insistence that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

The Scriptures that state that:

None. Crickets.



.

If you were a first-century Jew and knew more about God's blessing made to Abraham, you would know "the whole world" and similar phrases meant Jews and Gentiles alike. The Jews knew most of Israel was lost. They would also know most gentiles would remain lost as proven by today's filth and small Christian presence.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.



In the end, Pelagius taught that people save themselves through obedience. That Christ didn’t save anyone. People must save themselves through works. The council of Ephesus condemned this as heresy and affirmed Augustinianism the truth according to the scriptures. “Augustine spilled much ink responding to Pelagius. He simply says back to Pelagius, quoting Romans 9:16 that it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God’s mercy.”

“For Pelagius to be right, Augustine said, we have to flip that around. Imagine if Romans 9:16 read this way: it depends not on God’s mercy, but on human will. Augustine said if that were the case, we would all be doomed. But that’s not the case. And our God is a God full of mercy and full of grace. Our salvation does not depend on human will or human exertion, but it depends on God’s mercy.”

https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/5...tephen-nichols/augustine-the-triumph-of-grace

All the Reformers were Augustinians as well as most Protestants.

But the problem today is the Pelagianism found in the idea that Jesus didn’t save anyone on the cross. He only made it possible for everyone to save themselves as Pelagius taught.

Free will is a necessary ingredient of this. That is, salvation is available to all, but only those who freely choose to be obedient God saves. This is essentially a Pelagian understanding of salvation as it turns out.

Luther proved Free Will to be a lie in his irrefutable book “Bondage of the Will.”

Free will (Pelagianism), though condemned as heresy at Ephesus remains the key doctrine of the Roman Catholic and other like-minded churches. Anyone is free to take the sacraments and save themselves. Just as anyone is free to pick up a penny on the sidewalk. But in this case, the Church and the sacraments replace Christ as the savior and make you your own savior.

Other non-sacramental means still rely on the myth of free will to make human-produced faith the means of salvation. But they still end with salvation by works since the person causes the faith they supposedly save themselves with. Faith is not of human origin. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can believe in the biblical sense. And the works that come from this faith come from a new heart God creates in His elect. They act like Christians just as a cat acts like a cat, because of their nature.

The mention of the elect proves Christ died only for them since they are the only subjects marked out for salvation by God. We can recognize Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and the host of reformers whom God used to free us from the false savior of universal atonement and its most necessary ingredient, free will.

What is "universal atonement"?

The scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The scriptures also tell us that God does not wish any to perish but for all the repent and come to know the truth. Saint Paul in his letters tells us that death came into creation by the sin of one man and consequently all die while in contrast one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

What do we see? Not all are on the narrow road that leads to life and not all will hear from Christ's lips "well done you good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord".

 

[1689Dave]

What is "universal atonement"?

The scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The scriptures also tell us that God does not wish any to perish but for all the repent and come to know the truth. Saint Paul in his letters tells us that death came into creation by the sin of one man and consequently all die while in contrast one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

What do we see? Not all are on the narrow road that leads to life and not all will hear from Christ's lips "well done you good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord".

Scripture says Christ died for the elect only. That free will does not exist. So if any are to be saved, God alone must do it.

 

[Josiah]

Scripture says Christ died for the elect only.

Ah, but in hundreds of posts you've done on this, you have yet to produce the verse that states, "Jesus did not die for only the elect." Here's the reality you've made abundantly and obviously clear: Scripture never says that. If it did, you would have quoted that verse hundreds of posts ago. But you haven't. And we all know why.



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Scripture says Christ died for the elect only. That free will does not exist. So if any are to be saved, God alone must do it.

I've heard those theories stated before. I do not think scripture says those things. I can't find a verse for "died for the elect alone", nor one that says, "there's no such things as free will", and I suspect that every Christian holds that God saves his people from their sins and doesn't really need help to do so.

 

[shilohsfoal]

You totally misunderstand the Lutheran understanding of Universal Atonement. In no way does it say that MAN has to do something after Jesus died on the cross for his sins in order to achieve salvation.

Wasn't that long ago, that it sounded like you were trying to convince me that I had to do something in order to achieve salvation.
I think you said I needed someone other than God to wash me.
Have you changed your mind or do you still believe I need man to wash me and that Christ's death on the cross is not enough?

Which is it?

 

[1689Dave]

I've heard those theories stated before. I do not think scripture says those things. I can't find a verse for "died for the elect alone", nor one that says, "there's no such things as free will", and I suspect that every Christian holds that God saves his people from their sins and doesn't really need help to do so.

Many verses teach Limited Atonement. Some directly and others when combined.

 

[1689Dave]

Ah, but in hundreds of posts you've done on this, you have yet to produce the verse that states, "Jesus did not die for only the elect." Here's the reality you've made abundantly and obviously clear: Scripture never says that. If it did, you would have quoted that verse hundreds of posts ago. But you haven't. And we all know why.



.

I have many scriptures but I don't think you can understand them or we wouldn't be arguing. People cannot just pick up the Bible and read it and get anywhere.

 

[Lamb]

Wasn't that long ago, that it sounded like you were trying to convince me that I had to do something in order to achieve salvation.
I think you said I needed someone other than God to wash me.
Have you changed your mind or do you still believe I need man to wash me and that Christ's death on the cross is not enough?

Which is it?

No, you misunderstood. In baptism, our Triune God is the one who is at work, not you. I'm surprised you're resisting the calling of the Holy Spirit to "be baptized". I wrote it that way because it shows that it's passive language, meaning something happens to you. You can't baptize yourself. It's God's work.

If you wish to continue this conversation, then do it on a baptism thread because we've diverted this one enough now.

 

[Josiah]

I can't find a verse for "died for the elect alone"

Nor can Dave or ANY proponent of Limited Atonement.

Dave keeps insisting there are many verses that state, "Jesus died only for the elect" it's just he won't quote that verse. And yes, we ALL know why. MANY, MANY that state - verbatim - that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people. He can't deny that. NONE that say He did not die for all but only for some unknown few. He knows that - he just keeps claiming what he and we all know is false.

suspect that every Christian holds that God saves his people from their sins and doesn't really need help to do so.

Yup. Including those who hold to the biblical and traditional view of Universal Atonement (Jesus died for all people).

I have many scriptures

@1689Dave We all know if you had even one Scripture that stated, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknown few" you would have quoted it in at least one of the hundreds of posts you've made on this topic. You haven't. And we all know why. We ALL know why.


Universal Atonement:
The echo of Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people.

Just some of the Scriptures that state that:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Limited Atonement:
The insistence that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

The Scriptures that state that:

None. Crickets.






.

 

[shilohsfoal]

No, you misunderstood. In baptism, our Triune God is the one who is at work, not you. I'm surprised you're resisting the calling of the Holy Spirit to "be baptized". I wrote it that way because it shows that it's passive language, meaning something happens to you. You can't baptize yourself. It's God's work.

If you wish to continue this conversation, then do it on a baptism thread because we've diverted this one enough now.

If I were to be baptised in water. Then that is man's work. Not God's.
But if God baptised me in his holy spirit as I have testified, then its God's work and theres no need for ritual baths.
I brought this up because it appears you were contradicting yourself in this thread.

 

[1689Dave]

Nor can Dave or ANY proponent of Limited Atonement.

Dave keeps insisting there are many verses that state, "Jesus died only for the elect" it's just he won't quote that verse. And yes, we ALL know why. MANY, MANY that state - verbatim - that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people. He can't deny that. NONE that say He did not die for all but only for some unknown few. He knows that - he just keeps claiming what he and we all know is false.




Yup. Including those who hold to the biblical and traditional view of Universal Atonement (Jesus died for all people).



.

People cannot understand scripture unless the Lord reveals it to them. If you could understand the Limited Atonement verses we would agree. But all we will do is argue. So I use history and logic many times instead of scripture. I post on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.