Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.

[Josiah]

Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.

As you show, it's not.

Universal Atonement:
The echo of Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people.

Here are just some of the Scriptures that state that:

He knows (we all do) this is what Scripture actually states (and could it be more clear)?

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Limited Atonement:
The repudiation of all those Scriptures and the insistence that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

The Scriptures that state that:

None. Crickets.



I've asked Dave to underline the words of Universal Atonement that state, "each has to save themselves by what they do." But he could not find those words in "Jesus died for all." And the reason he can't find those words there is because they aren't there.

Clearly, if we actually READ the verses and BELIEVE rather than repudiate and denounce them, we know... Jesus died for all, for all people, for everyone. Because that's EXACTLY, VERBATIM what the Bible says. Over and over again. And never the contrary. I think it's wise to believe what the Bible so often states and not the opposite that it never states. We disagree on that, of course.


Universal Atonement: Jesus died for all.
Limited Atonement: No! Jesus died for ONLY some unknown FEW.

Free will is a necessary ingredient of this.

What human's free will is the cause of Jesus dying for all? Yes, the free will of God but who had the free will that caused Jesus to die for all people rather than for all planets or for some unknowable few people? I think your claim that "JESUS DIED FOR ALL" is because of some guy's free will is just absurd.




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[Albion]

Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.

In the end, Pelagius taught that people save themselves through obedience.

Why would that make salvation be "universal?"

That Christ didn’t save anyone. People must save themselves through works.

But surely you recognize that this begs the question as to why doing good all though one's life would get you anything if there were no one who took account of those deeds, approved them, and rewarded the person doing them!

“For Pelagius to be right, Augustine said, we have to flip that around. Imagine if Romans 9:16 read this way: it depends not on God’s mercy, but on human will. Augustine said if that were the case, we would all be doomed. But that’s not the case. And our God is a God full of mercy and full of grace. Our salvation does not depend on human will or human exertion, but it depends on God’s mercy.”

Free will (Pelagianism), though condemned as heresy at Ephesus remains the key doctrine of the Roman Catholic and other like-minded churches.

That's because belief in free will doesn't have to be as Pelagius viewed it.

Anyone is free to take the sacraments and save themselves.

The sacraments don't guarantee salvation, and the one who authored them and commanded that we partake of them was Christ, not any priest or other mortal.

But in this case, the Church and the sacraments replace Christ as the savior and make you your own savior.

Still false (and even more absurd when worded this way than as it was in your earlier posts).

 

[Josiah]

Not everyone has salvation because of Christ's death...which sin is not forgiven? Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which in itself is rejection of God and the forgiveness won at the cross. God gives faith so we can believe, but those who refuse Him remain in their disbelief and damn themselves. They don't receive the forgiveness that was won for all, just not given to them because they don't want it and don't believe in it. They look to themselves instead.

@Lamb


Our radical Calvinist friend is doing what Universalists (a split off of Calvinism) did: Simply eliminate faith, insisting faith has nothing to do with justification. The Universalists insist that if Jesus died for you, you are heaven bound even if you denounce Jesus and have no faith - all that matters is the Cross, faith is meaningless and useless.

Historic, biblical Christianity has always held that Christ achieved Justification for EVERYONE on the Cross.... and that it is personal faith that apprehends, trusts, relies upon that... and that BOTH are needed for justification (narrow). When faith is removed from justification, then all that remains is the Cross - and thus all that matters. Universal Atonement (echoing so many Scriptures) states that the Cross means there is justification for all - and where there is personal faith, where such is apprehended, there is justification. It's not faith ONLY or the Cross ONLY but both.


A bit of history: My father-in-law (a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church) explained that there are Universalists churches all over the East Coast of the US that once were Calvinists churches, and like a Dave, held that faith doesn't matter. But they departed from traditional Calvinism when they rejected Limited Atonement they thus became universalists - and are Universalists churches to this day. The problem is not that they rejected the very unbiblical view of Limited Atonement but because they rejected the role of faith. To this day, he explained, there are radical Calvinists who hold that if you reject Limited Atonement you must be a universalists - they miss the point, it's rejecting FAITH that lead to that, what they also do.

Also, "Election" or "predestination" has always been linked to the GIFT OF FAITH, not the Cross. Latter-day Calvinists changed that. Jesus did not hang from the Cross with a list of all those He was dying for and a much longer list of those He was not. Rather, "Election" notes that some are chosen to recieve the gift of faith.


Theologically: Because some radical Calvinists can't support their rejection of the role of faith, they like to switch topics to synergism (which they rightly reject). But this assumes that those who hold to Universal Atonement are synergists, and I know of none who are. Lutherans certainly are not. It's beyond silly to insist that because Christians echo that Christ died for all does NOT mean they repudiate that we earn salvation by what we do. And it's absurd to insist that the will of some unnamed dude caused Jesus to die on the Cross; Christ died according to HIS will (not some unknown dude), which reflected the Father's will. Synergism and free will are red herrings, they are unrelated, they are diversions.


Pastorally: Limited Atonement means that NO ONE can possibly know if Jesus died for them, if justication is available for their faith. Indeed, it means it's probably not since Jesus did NOT die for most but only some unknowable few. No Calvinist preacher can say "Jesus died for you" because He probably didn't. And if someone believes that they are trusting in Jesus' life/death/resurrection well they are probably wrong because He probably didn't do that for THEM; they may be trusting in something that for them is a phantom, a non-reality, simply not there. He has no way to know. What a horrible, horrible teaching!


My wife's Calvinist family all reject Limited Atonement because..
1. It flat out contradicts a LOT of clear, verbatim Scriptures.
2. There is not one Scripture that supports it.
3. It creates a "terror of the conscience" since no one can know if Jesus is THEIR Savior, if the Cross is for THEM.




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[Josiah]

Why would that make salvation be "universal?"

@Albion
@Lamb


Because he rejects the role of faith. All those verses that verbatim state that faith is essential to justifcation are handled exactly like all those verses that state that Jesus died for all. Just denied.

Like Universalists (a split off from Calvinism), he concludes that if Jesus died for all then all are saved; it doesn't matter if they trust in Christ or repudiate Christ cuz faith doesn't matter, ONLY the Cross.

And like Pelagianism, he holds that faith is not the gift of God but something each dead, unregenerate sinner creates for himself and gives to himself so if one insists that faith matters, that makes them a synergist, Pelagianist and a free will Baptist. Pretty silly, isn't it?

The Cross is GOD'S act. Faith is GOD'S gift. BOTH are needed for justification (narrow). There is no justification without the death of Jesus (FOR YOU) and without faith in that. All Dave has done is insist no one can know if Jesus' death was for them and faith is just irrelevant.



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[1689Dave]

Why would that make salvation be "universal?"




But surely you recognize that this begs the question as to why doing good all though one's life would get you anything if there were no one who took account of those deeds, approved them, and rewarded the person doing them!





That's because belief in free will doesn't have to be as Pelagius viewed it.


The sacraments don't guarantee salvation, and the one who authored them and commanded that we partake of them was Christ, not any priest or other mortal.


Still false (and even more absurd when worded this way than as it was in your earlier posts).

Universal atonement is a form of Pelagianism. Pure and simple. It saves no one but supposedly enables the self-righteous, who are supposedly not incapacitated by sin to save themselves. Limited atonement saves those who are incapacitated by sin and cannot grasp the true Christ or believe, which is the state of all born in Adam according to scripture.

 

[1689Dave]

As you show, it's not.

Universal Atonement:
The echo of Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people.

Here are just some of the Scriptures that state that:

He knows (we all do) this is what Scripture actually states (and could it be more clear)?

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Limited Atonement:
The repudiation of all those Scriptures and the insistence that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few.

The Scriptures that state that:

None. Crickets.



I've asked Dave to underline the words of Universal Atonement that state, "each has to save themselves by what they do." But he could not find those words in "Jesus died for all." And the reason he can't find those words there is because they aren't there.

Clearly, if we actually READ the verses and BELIEVE rather than repudiate and denounce them, we know... Jesus died for all, for all people, for everyone. Because that's EXACTLY, VERBATIM what the Bible says. Over and over again. And never the contrary. I think it's wise to believe what the Bible so often states and not the opposite that it never states. We disagree on that, of course.


Universal Atonement: Jesus died for all.
Limited Atonement: No! Jesus died for ONLY some unknown FEW.






What human's free will is the cause of Jesus dying for all? Yes, the free will of God but who had the free will that caused Jesus to die for all people rather than for all planets or for some unknowable few people? I think your claim that "JESUS DIED FOR ALL" is because of some guy's free will is just absurd.




.

You are not balancing the verses that teach Limited Atonement against your cherry-picked one-sided collection of verses.

 

[Lamb]

Universal atonement is a form of Pelagianism. Pure and simple. It saves no one but supposedly enables the self-righteous, who are supposedly not incapacitated by sin to save themselves. Limited atonement saves those who are incapacitated by sin and cannot grasp the true Christ or believe, which is the state of all born in Adam according to scripture.

Still no explanation as to why you believe as such. Have you read what Josiah wrote? It's really important.

 

[1689Dave]

Still no explanation as to why you believe as such. Have you read what Josiah wrote? It's really important.

God sent His Spirit into my heart causing me to believe based on that experience. Have you ever experienced the fruit of the Spirit?

 

[Lamb]

God sent His Spirit into my heart causing me to believe based on that experience. Have you ever experienced the fruit of the Spirit?

This is a tangent.

You seem to do this trend where you run out of things to back up your position and then go off onto tangents. I don't follow tangents.

 

[1689Dave]

This is a tangent.

You seem to do this trend where you run out of things to back up your position and then go off onto tangents. I don't follow tangents.

Why do you think you are saved and the others not saved?

 

[Lamb]

Why do you think you are saved and the others not saved?

That's something the bible doesn't address which is what I've also repeatedly told you on this site. I've answered it. I am not going to guess.

 

[1689Dave]

That's something the bible doesn't address which is what I've also repeatedly told you on this site. I've answered it. I am not going to guess.

I know why I'm saved. It's an experience you cannot doubt.

 

[Lamb]

I know why I'm saved. It's an experience you cannot doubt.

Ah, so you know you're saved because of an experience instead of knowing that Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sins?

 

[1689Dave]

Ah, so you know you're saved because of an experience instead of knowing that Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sins?

I could not believe unless Jesus died for my sins. Faith is evidence he did. Choosing to believe is not faith.

 

[Albion]

Universal atonement is a form of Pelagianism. Pure and simple. It saves no one but supposedly enables the self-righteous, who are supposedly not incapacitated by sin to save themselves.

Clearly, it does not leave the individual to save himself. No one is saved (according to orthodox Christianity) without Christ and his work on the Cross.

Limited atonement saves those who are incapacitated by sin and cannot grasp the true Christ or believe, which is the state of all born in Adam according to scripture.

Limited Atonement means that Christ died only for God's Elect.

 

[1689Dave]

Clearly, it does not leave the individual to save himself. No one is saved (according to orthodox Christianity) without Christ and his work on the Cross.

Limited Atonement means that Christ died only for God's Elect.

But UA saves no one, you must save yourself in response to it = Pelagianism.

 

[DPMartin]

Why Universal Atonement is Pelagianism.



In the end, Pelagius taught that people save themselves through obedience. That Christ didn’t save anyone. People must save themselves through works. The council of Ephesus condemned this as heresy and affirmed Augustinianism the truth according to the scriptures. “Augustine spilled much ink responding to Pelagius. He simply says back to Pelagius, quoting Romans 9:16 that it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God’s mercy.”

“For Pelagius to be right, Augustine said, we have to flip that around. Imagine if Romans 9:16 read this way: it depends not on God’s mercy, but on human will. Augustine said if that were the case, we would all be doomed. But that’s not the case. And our God is a God full of mercy and full of grace. Our salvation does not depend on human will or human exertion, but it depends on God’s mercy.”

https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/5...tephen-nichols/augustine-the-triumph-of-grace

All the Reformers were Augustinians as well as most Protestants.

But the problem today is the Pelagianism found in the idea that Jesus didn’t save anyone on the cross. He only made it possible for everyone to save themselves as Pelagius taught.

Free will is a necessary ingredient of this. That is, salvation is available to all, but only those who freely choose to be obedient God saves. This is essentially a Pelagian understanding of salvation as it turns out.

Luther proved Free Will to be a lie in his irrefutable book “Bondage of the Will.”

Free will (Pelagianism), though condemned as heresy at Ephesus remains the key doctrine of the Roman Catholic and other like-minded churches. Anyone is free to take the sacraments and save themselves. Just as anyone is free to pick up a penny on the sidewalk. But in this case, the Church and the sacraments replace Christ as the savior and make you your own savior.

Other non-sacramental means still rely on the myth of free will to make human-produced faith the means of salvation. But they still end with salvation by works since the person causes the faith they supposedly save themselves with. Faith is not of human origin. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can believe in the biblical sense. And the works that come from this faith come from a new heart God creates in His elect. They act like Christians just as a cat acts like a cat, because of their nature.

The mention of the elect proves Christ died only for them since they are the only subjects marked out for salvation by God. We can recognize Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and the host of reformers whom God used to free us from the false savior of universal atonement and its most necessary ingredient, free will.

free-will is a philosophy of the Greeks in BC something, long before Pelagius. freewill doesn't exist in the Kingdom of Heaven. in the scripture you will only find the chosen, no one choses the Lord God. No one invites themselves to the Lord God’s table. The delusion of freewill is that one can navigate freely, if the world is in such condition, through the world that is chosen for you. Just as of every tree you may eat, but who selected the trees that are at hand, that you may eat? Also, in the case of condemnation one is born into the world of condemnation via, to use a Catholicism term “original sin” of Adam and Eve. That’s not a choice. And the only alternative is salvation in Christ, of which Jesus makes more than one statement pointing out that He finds you or His Father draws use to Him.

Technically though, its not really an alternative, it’s the original life God gave Adam. That Life Adam and Eve died from, and were left with life of the flesh “dust to dust” which also was God’s choice for them and their children. Otherwise, according to the covenant the Lord God had with Adam, A&E could have discontinued existing, and God would be in the right according to His Word. And the Life A&E had before the tree:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.



Which is why some refer to Jesus as the “second Adam”.

 

[Albion]

But UA saves no one, you must save yourself in response to it = Pelagianism.

Pelagius aside, there's a difference between Universalism and Universal Atonement. That's one thing. Also, Pelagianism does not mean that the individual is left to "save himself." Pelagius was concerned at the idea that everyone begins life outcast from God by having inherited "Original Sin."

 

[Lamb]

Pelagius aside, there's a difference between Universalism and Universal Atonement. That's one thing. Also, Pelagianism does not mean that the individual is left to "save himself." Pelagius was concerned at the idea that everyone begins life outcast from God by having inherited "Original Sin."

DING DING DING! You hit the crux of the matter in all these new conversations.

I do believe that @1689Dave is confusing the two terms "Universalism" with "Universal Atonement". Good catch @Albion

 

[1689Dave]

DING DING DING! You hit the crux of the matter in all these new conversations.

I do believe that @1689Dave is confusing the two terms "Universalism" with "Universal Atonement". Good catch @Albion

Hint: The topic is Universal Atonement.