Denominationalism VS nondenominational Churches.

[Josiah]

Prove me wrong using scripture or cease.

Friend, IMO, you need to take your own advise.

You've insisted the Bible condemns congregations cooperating but the Scripture you present obviously, clearly, undeniably says nothing of the sort. We all know that.

Your whole apologetic seems to hinge on a baseless point that you yourself reject: That if the Bible doesn't mention something (I assume positively), then it's sinful, wrong and disallowed. But that's absurd: here you are posting on the internet, something not once mentioned in the Bible. And likely a LOT your congregation is not once mentioned in the Bible. And your even more absurd point that denominations have saving faith in this cooperation/association of member congregations. I've never heard such an absurd point.

You've shared your feeling about this. And that's fine. But you seem to have gone to great lengths to show that's all it is.... you have nothing to support it as true. I see no reason to continue this with you - you are presenting no substantiation and not considering anything posted to you. I respectfully advise you hang it up ... and move on to something else. I'm sure you have much of value to share on other issues.


Blessings


- Josiah



.

 

[1689Dave]

Friend, IMO, you need to take your own advise.

You've insisted the Bible condemns congregations cooperating but the Scripture you present obviously, clearly, undeniably says nothing of the sort. We all know that.

Your whole apologetic seems to hinge on a baseless point that you yourself reject: That if the Bible doesn't mention something (I assume positively), then it's sinful, wrong and disallowed. But that's absurd: here you are posting on the internet, something not once mentioned in the Bible. And likely a LOT your congregation is not once mentioned in the Bible. And your even more absurd point that denominations have saving faith in this cooperation/association of member congregations. I've never heard such an absurd point.

You've shared your feeling about this. And that's fine. But you seem to have gone to great lengths to show that's all it is.... you have nothing to support it as true. I see no reason to continue this with you - you are presenting no substantiation and not considering anything posted to you. I respectfully advise you hang it up ... and move on to something else. I'm sure you have much of value to share on other issues.


Blessings


- Josiah



.

I did not say anything about congregations fellowshipping with each other. I am involved in this. So it is a false accusation on your part. My position is if a form of church government does not come from scripture you cannot have true faith in it. Faith comes from the Word. And whatever is not of faith is sin. Paul even forbids denominationalism “For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” 1 Corinthians 3:4 (KJV 1900).

Also, look at the history of bloodshed by major denominational churches, before America stepped in and now protects us from them. They have not changed.

 

[Faith]

I was showing how people can use something not mentioned in the bible in faith. You cannot have faith in denominations since scripture never mentions them. I used porn as an example of misuse since it is so obvious.

So let me get this straight. You’re a Christian who doesn’t go to church?

 

[1689Dave]

So let me get this straight. You’re a Christian who doesn’t go to church?

We mostly worship at home. Jesus says where two or three gather in his name, he is in the midst of them. You can meet this way at Micky D's and have more of a biblical church model than you will ever have in an institutional denominational church. Home churches are found in the Bible. Institutional churches are not. Are they sinful? Faith comes from hearing the word, and whatever is not of faith is sin. Something to think about. They also have a history of killing Christians, not of their persuasion. The numbers are staggering for the Catholics. The Protestant churches focused mainly on the Anabaptists with some appalling numbers too. The Church of England kept changing from Protestant to Catholic with many martyrs credited to both.

 

[Albion]

We mostly worship at home. Jesus says where two or three gather in his name, he is in the midst of them.

In one sense, that's right. He is true and is "with" his disciples always, just he promised. He answers prayer wherever it is uttered, for instance, even without the petitioner being in church at that moment.

However, you are also doing without the Lord's Supper, dismissing the fellowship of other believers, and deliberately rejecting huge amounts of instruction that has been given us in the same Bible that you pretend to adhere to and interpret expertly.

 

[1689Dave]

In one sense, that's right. He is true and is "with" his disciples always, just he promised. He answers prayer wherever it is uttered, for instance, even without the petitioner being in church at that moment.

However, you are also doing without the Lord's Supper, dismissing the fellowship of other believers, and deliberately rejecting huge amounts of instruction that has been given us in the same Bible that you pretend to adhere to and interpret expertly.

Missing huge amounts of instruction?

 

[Faith]

So you just teach yourself without the leadership of those who trained for this? OK gotcha.

 

[1689Dave]

So you just teach yourself without the leadership of those who trained for this? OK gotcha.

When I dropped out of Church I asked myself where I would find the purest teaching about Christianity. It turns out, it would be the Reformation where the debate was the hottest. So I put in $$$ of books including Luther, Calvinists, the Presbyterians, and the Reformed. And eventually the early Calvinistic Baptists. I study for hours every day.

 

[Faith]

When I dropped out of Church I asked myself where I would find the purest teaching about Christianity. It turns out, it would be the Reformation where the debate was the hottest. So I put in $$$ of books including Luther, Calvinists, the Presbyterians, and the Reformed. And eventually the early Calvinistic Baptists. I study for hours every day.

Well, I’ve done a lot of self study and I still want the leadership of trained professionals. And fellowship.

 

[1689Dave]

Well, I’ve done a lot of self study and I still want the leadership of trained professionals. And fellowship.

But many are deceivers today. I believe divorce and remarriage are adultery. Every church in my area promotes this. They break up desperate families when they reach their weakest point. And I don't want that on my conscience.

 

[Faith]

But many are deceivers today. I believe divorce and remarriage are adultery. Every church in my area promotes this. They break up desperate families when they reach their weakest point. And I don't want that on my conscience.

and many aren’t.

 

[Albion]

You can meet this way at Micky D's and have more of a biblical church model than you will ever have in an institutional denominational church. Home churches are found in the Bible.

Those were still "churches," Dave. The location of the assembly, even in a private residence, does not make these be anything like your meeting with a couple of family members over an Egg McMuffin!

Institutional churches are not...They also have a history of killing Christians, not of their persuasion. The numbers are staggering for the Catholics. The Protestant churches focused mainly on the Anabaptists with some appalling numbers too.

No, that alibi that you've tried on us before still doesn't work.

While it's true that some denominations have colluded with government in the past to persecute non-believers or dissident Christians, it's not true of all of them. Therefore, that claim doesn't hold up as a valid criticism.

Even if all of them had behaved according to your story line, that would still not make the Bible be false...and that is the position you are taking when claiming that if some assembly of Christians has engaged in violence, that this somehow nullifies Christian assemblies altogether.

 

[1689Dave]

and many aren’t.

I don't know of any in my area. Also what about God giving American Christians separation of Church and State Laws? Who do the laws protect? If not Christians who believe differently from the Institutional Churches? Look at the bloody history of some of the most visibly present.

 

[Albion]

Now you're just raving and assuming all sorts of things about hypothetical "wrongs" that don't even bear upon the issues here.

 

[1689Dave]

Now you're just raving and assuming all sorts of things about hypothetical "wrongs" that don't even bear upon the issues here.

The Pope doesn't make mistakes. So he was right about the millions he killed. Thank God for the USA!

 

[Albion]

I don't know of any in my area.

I can hardly believe that this is an accurate statement. Not unless you live well off the grid. I notice that you indict denominations in general, but you often word it as "institutional" or "mainline" ones. Why so?

I suppose that's because you are wary of making a blanket statement. Still, that IS what you have done at times--disavow any and all denominational churches and, in fact, any organized congregation, however independent of any larger federation, etc.

Getting back to the claim that was made about you knowing of no "institutional" church in your area, are there no non-denominational congregations there? No decent local congregation of one of the smaller and less historic denominations? One of the Churches of Christ, for example, or a Primitive Baptist church? Nothing at all??

 

[1689Dave]

I can hardly believe that this is an accurate statement. Not unless you live well off the grid. I notice that you indict denominations in general, but you often word it as "institutional" or "mainline" ones. Why so?

I suppose that's because you are wary of making a blanket statement. Still, that IS what you have done at times--disavow any and all denominational churches and, in fact, any organized congregation, however independent of any larger federation, etc.

Getting back to the claim that was made about you knowing of no "institutional" church in your area, are there no non-denominational congregations there? No decent local congregation of one of the smaller and less historic denominations? One of the Churches of Christ, for example, or a Primitive Baptist church? Nothing at all??

Does your church practice divorce and remarriage?

 

[Albion]

The Pope doesn't make mistakes. !

You were attacking any and all denominations in your remarks, at least the better known ones.

Reducing that down to "The Pope" doesn't make your earlier condemnations of the Biblical structure of Christian assemblies--all the ones you decline to belong to--any more credible.

 

[1689Dave]

You were attacking any and all denominations in your remarks, at least the better known ones.

Reducing that down to "The Pope" doesn't make your earlier condemnations of the Biblical structure of Christian assemblies--all the ones you decline to belong to--any more credible.

How can a denomination with a bloody past have reflected what Christ teaches? How about military service? That involves lots of innocent blood.

 

[Albion]

How can a denomination with a bloody past have reflected what Christ teaches? How about military service? That involves lots of innocent blood.

I just asked you about denominations or at least a non-denominational congregation that IS NOT stained--in your view--by some "bloody" past. There's been no good answer to that, of course.

You have used just about every excuse in order to explain why you prefer being a 'lone wolf' Christian--"they" have a violent past, "they" practice of divorce and remarriage, "they have some reprobates among their membership, etc.

Okay, I get it. You don't want to follow the directives of the New Testament in this regard. But if that is where the matter stands, you really should not also be throwing stones at people on this forum through attacking the churches THEY belong to, especially if you don't know what churches they DO belong to.