Denominationalism VS nondenominational Churches.

[Albion]

Denominations are unscriptural. Congregations independent of each other are the Biblical model.

I think you are quite wrong about this. From almost the start of the Christian era, cooperation and oversight were a part of the life of the congregations in city after city. As we see from the NT, Paul (whom you have cited in a number of your own posts) wrote to and traveled between congregations, sought to solve problems in one after another, and instructed different congregations about proper procedures.

 

[Josiah]

I think you are quite wrong about this. From almost the start of the Christian era, cooperation and oversight were a part of the life of the congregations in city after city. As we see from the NT, Paul (whom you have cited in a number of your own posts) wrote to and traveled between congregations, sought to solve problems in one after another, and instructed different congregations about proper procedures.

You are correct, Albion

There's nothing that suggests non-denominationalism in the Bible or early church, even though I DO think what existed before the 4th Century is not a full-blown denomination (the illegal status of Christianity likely make that impossible). But the Council of Jerusalem, the Collection for the Saints, the Didache, etc., etc. all indicate a lack of non-denominationalism. Certainly not the independence that our brother promotes. Perhaps a protodenomination... or protodenominations?



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[Albion]

But I think our brother is denouncing denominations without being willing to belong to any church himself, whether denominational or non-denominational. Isn't that correct?

 

[1689Dave]

I think you are quite wrong about this. From almost the start of the Christian era, cooperation and oversight were a part of the life of the congregations in city after city. As we see from the NT, Paul (whom you have cited in a number of your own posts) wrote to and traveled between congregations, sought to solve problems in one after another, and instructed different congregations about proper procedures.

Scripture does not mention them. If anything it condemns them. You cannot have biblical faith in them if not mentioned. This is sin according to Paul.

 

[1689Dave]

But you can't find any Scripture that so states. Okay.

Paul is saying NOTHING about Christians associating with others (congregations) or congregations associating with others (denominations). This you keep proving. He is denouncing theological division among CHRISTIANS. Yes, it IS wrong to be divided in doctrine but it's absurd to argue that every non-denom congregation fully and absolutely agrees with every other non-denom congregation on the planet on all matters. Indeed, a denomination holding all to the same faith probably leads to congregations agreeing more with others, not less. The 6000 congregations of my denomination are all in perfect agreement with the over 600 pages of our mutual statement of faith. Is your non-denom in equal agreement with over 6000 other non-denoms, on a statement at least 600 pages long ????? Yes or no?





Well, there may have been no denominations before the 4th Century, but that doesn't mean denominations are wrong anymore than books, Computers. Youth groups and youth pastors, Baptism tanks, Communion with little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice, Altar calls, Catechisms, The Sinner's Prayer, Church websites, The internet, Forbidding those under the age of we-won't-tell-you from baptism, Christian discussion forums and a few thousand other things. Since you reject that we should do only as shown in the Bible (and not what is not) I agree with you and thus reject your entire point and premise here.



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Whatever is not of faith is sin and scripture does not mention denominations. Denominations destroy the biblical model of a church. Computers in the Bible? No, but using them in faith for Bible study is blessed.

 

[Josiah]

Whatever is not of faith is sin and scripture does not mention denominations.

@1689Dave


Friend, then so is the internet (not once mentioned in Scripture), thus are you sinning by embracing the internet? I think your whole apologetic is, well... obviously....

Denominations destroy the biblical model of a church.

The Bible never condemns denominations, as you've proven.

It seems to me the biblical model is to denounce individualism and isolationism; it encourages cooperation, association, accountability. Christians are to congregations exactly as congregations are to denominations - same "model." Joining together with others - for reasons of mutual edification and cooperation, to further the Kingdom and Great Commission. The biblical model is to reject each one doing their own thing in isolation, it seems to be more against non-denominational congregations than denominational ones, although I don't hold that EITHER is NECESSARILY good or bad, commanded OR forbidden.

You cannot have biblical faith in them if not mentioned.

No one has "biblical faith" in congregations or denominations. Some Christians join with others in congregations and some congregations similarly join with others in denominations, but no one has "faith" in either.

However, faith in Christ may cause them to join with fellow Christians rather than live in strict isolation and independance - it may lead them to join with others in a congregation. I don't think the Bible REQUIRES (or forbids) that but it seems good. In the same way, Christian congregations may choose to join with other congregations rather than exist in strict isolation and independance. I don't think the Bible REQUIRES (or forbids) that but it seems good.




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[1689Dave]

Then so is the internet (not once mentioned in Scripture), thus are you sinning by embracing the internet?




The Bible never condemns denominations, as you've proven. It seems to me the biblical model is to denounce individualism and isolationism; it encourages cooperation, association, accountability. Christians are to congregations exactly as congregations are to denominations - same "model." Joining together with others - for reasons of mutual edification and cooperation, to further the Kingdom and Great Commission. The biblical model is to reject each one doing their own thing in isolation, it seems to be more against non-denominational congregations than denominational ones, although I don't hold that EITHER is NECESSARILY good or bad, commanded OR forbidden.




No one has "biblical faith" in congregations or denominations. Christians have faith in Christ.

However, that faith in Christ may cause them to join with fellow Christians rather than live in strict isolation and independance - it may lead them to join with others in a congregation. I don't think the Bible REQUIRES (or forbids) that but it seems good. In the same way, Christian congregations may choose to join with other congregations rather than exist in strict isolation and independance. I don't think the Bible REQUIRES (or forbids) that but it seems good.




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Some look at porno. That is a sin. I study the Bible and research church history in Faith. That is not sin.

 

[Albion]

Some look at porno. That is a sin.

You're desperate for a retort, I see, but Christians viewing porn has nothing to do with this discussion.

I study the Bible and research church history in Faith.

Yeah, we all do that. Some of us don't boast about it as though we're special, however.

 

[1689Dave]

You're desperate for a retort, I see, but Christians viewing porn has nothing to do with this discussion.

Yeah, we all do that. Some of us don't boast about it as though we're special, however.

I was showing how people can use something not mentioned in the bible in faith. You cannot have faith in denominations since scripture never mentions them. I used porn as an example of misuse since it is so obvious.

 

[Josiah]

You're desperate for a retort, I see, but Christians viewing porn has nothing to do with this discussion.

Correct.

His point was whatever is not mentioned in the Bible is sin. The internet is not mentioned in the Bible, ergo (according to him)...




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[Albion]

I was showing how people can use something not mentioned in the bible in faith.

Of course, but no one is saying that looking at porn is Godly or similar to belonging to a denominational church. Therefore, the example didn't do anything to show that joining with other Christians in worship is wrong or that holding oneself aloof from the fellowship of other Christians is virtuous or required by our faith.

You cannot have faith in denominations since scripture never mentions them.

You lost that argument quite a while back, so do you have another?

 

[1689Dave]

Of course, but no one is saying that looking at porn is Godly or similar to belonging to a denominational church. Therefore, the example didn't do anything to show that joining with other Christians in worship is wrong or that holding oneself aloof from the fellowship of other Christians is virtuous or required by our faith.


You lost that argument quite a while back, so do you have another?

Do we not join with other Christians on this form? How can it be true what you accuse me of? You don't know anything about my involvement with other Christians but you smear me assuming what you do not know. How about the bloody histories of the Institutional churches I brought up? You didn't get back to me on that?

 

[Lamb]

Scripture does not mention them. If anything it condemns them. You cannot have biblical faith in them if not mentioned. This is sin according to Paul.

People don't have faith in their denominations. They have faith in the Savior.

 

[1689Dave]

People don't have faith in their denominations. They have faith in the Savior.

But the sacradotal churches take Jesus' place as savior through the sacraments people trust in for their salvation. Your church is not sacerdotal, but evangelical, so your use of the Eucharist should not be compared to theirs.

 

[Faith]

But the sacradotal churches take Jesus' place as savior through the sacraments people trust in for their salvation. Your church is not sacerdotal, but evangelical, so your use of the Eucharist should not be compared to theirs.

Did you ever respond to my comment about the internet not being mentioned in the Bible?

 

[1689Dave]

Did you ever respond to my comment about the internet not being mentioned in the Bible?

I think so, but if not, You do not find Institutional churches in the bible. Faith comes from reading or hearing the bible. And Paul says whatever is not of faith is sin. So they are sinful since you replace God's word with human tradition. But you can use the internet to study the bible. In faith! So it depends on your motive. Many use it sinfully.

 

[Albion]

But the sacradotal churches take Jesus' place as savior

Please, Dave, these nonsensical ravings really should stop.

You've voiced this particularly ignorant one a half-dozen times already, so you should be able to feel by now that you made your point, even if it wasn't a valid one.

 

[Albion]

I was showing how people can use something not mentioned in the bible in faith.

Not being mentioned isn't critical. If what makes a denomination what it is can be found in the Bible, that's what matters.

The absence of a particular term, especially one that's of recent origin, isn't definitive. It's whether the item is described or recommended in Scripture. Millenium, Trinity, Rapture, and many other terms are likewise not "mentioned" by name in the Bible.

You cannot have faith in denominations since scripture never mentions them.

Who "has faith in" denominations? It's the mere existence of voluntary groupings of Christian congregations that has drawn your fire.

 

[1689Dave]

Not being mentioned isn't critical. If what makes a denomination what it is can be found in the Bible, that's what matters.

The absence of a particular term, especially one that's of recent origin, isn't definitive. It's whether the item is described or recommended in Scripture. Millenium, Trinity, Rapture, and many other terms are likewise not "mentioned" by name in the Bible.

Who "has faith in" denominations? It's the mere existence of voluntary groupings of Christian congregations that has drawn your fire.

The have an unscriptural form of Church government. And bloody histories contrary to the teaching of Christ. (Few exceptions).

 

[1689Dave]

Please, Dave, these nonsensical ravings really should stop.

You've voiced this particularly ignorant one a half-dozen times already, so you should be able to feel by now that you made your point, even if it wasn't a valid one.

Prove me wrong using scripture or cease. Have you noticed every post I make other than my OP is in response to critics? You need to hang it up as a lost cause.