Decision Theology

[Lees]

I'd advise you to not resort to personal attacks like this one whenever your line of reasoning or your claims have missed the mark.

Most of the time, the other people here do nothing more than correct the mistakes of fact that they are reading from you or else they're calling on you to clarify something you've stated poorly...so that whatever the issue of the thread has been has a chance of being moved along to a conclusion.

I'd advise you to quit lying. Your accusation of me in post #(111) is a complete lie. A complete misrepresentation.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Great video that addresses all of this conversation (can be begin watching at 2:50):

I watched part of it. He is a little too 'cool and goofy' to hold my attention.

I left off when he said the Cross saved you and not the Resurrection. As with our discussion he is drawing a fine line concerning salvation, and that line he is drawing is incorrect between the Cross and the Resurrection. Both are part of the salvation of man or any individual.

And, it is by the Resurrection that we are born-again. (1 Peter 1:3) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

In other words, you cannot be born-again without the Resurrection.

My point: You have the believer being born again first, and then believing. To which I disagree.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

I watched part of it. He is a little too 'cool and goofy' to hold my attention.

I left off when he said the Cross saved you and not the Resurrection. As with our discussion he is drawing a fine line concerning salvation, and that line he is drawing is incorrect between the Cross and the Resurrection. Both are part of the salvation of man or any individual.

And, it is by the Resurrection that we are born-again. (1 Peter 1:3) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

In other words, you cannot be born-again without the Resurrection.

My point: You have the believer being born again first, and then believing. To which I disagree.

Lees

It's the cross that gives us forgiveness of sins. The Resurrection is what gives us hope of being resurrected.

Unregenerate man will not believe, for the cross is foolishness to him. You haven't addressed that part of scripture yet.

It takes the Gospel to convert and when that happens, man believes because faith has been given by the Holy Spirit. Man cannot and will not believe without first being given faith through the word. He is an enemy of God until he is converted.

 

[Lees]

It's the cross that gives us forgiveness of sins. The Resurrection is what gives us hope of being resurrected.

Unregenerate man will not believe, for the cross is foolishness to him. You haven't addressed that part of scripture yet.

It takes the Gospel to convert and when that happens, man believes because faith has been given by the Holy Spirit. Man cannot and will not believe without first being given faith through the word. He is an enemy of God until he is converted.

That's the problem with giving a video. You now have to argue on what it really says. Your video said the Cross saves and the Resurrection does not save. But both are part of our salvation.

The Resurrection doesn't just give 'hope' of a future bodily resurrected. It is by the power of the Resurrection that we are 'born-again'. As I showed in (1 Peter 1:3).

Do you believe our spirit is born-again by the Spirit of God?

Do you believe you are now born-again?

If so, when were you born again? When you believed, or after you believed?

Give me the exact Scripture you are referring to that you say I have not addressed.

Your last paragraph is telling me that you believe a man is born-again first and then believes. Yet for some reason, you won't admit it.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

That's the problem with giving a video. You now have to argue on what it really says. Your video said the Cross saves and the Resurrection does not save. But both are part of our salvation.

The Resurrection doesn't just give 'hope' of a future bodily resurrected. It is by the power of the Resurrection that we are 'born-again'. As I showed in (1 Peter 1:3).

Do you believe our spirit is born-again by the Spirit of God?

Do you believe you are now born-again?

If so, when were you born again? When you believed, or after you believed?

Give me the exact Scripture you are referring to that you say I have not addressed.

Your last paragraph is telling me that you believe a man is born-again first and then believes. Yet for some reason, you won't admit it.

Lees

The Resurrection isn't where the atonement was made. It's the cross and that's why the pastor pointed that out. Your forgiveness of sins, which is what you need to be reconciled to God, took place at the cross. The Resurrection is proof that God accepted the sacrifice because it means that Jesus lives, just as we will live when we are resurrected.

You still haven't addressed how the unregenerate can turn themselves to God without faith.

I'll answer your questions but I'd really like you to address the above about the unregenerate and especially how the Gospel is foolishness to the unbeliever.

It's God who makes us born again. Not ourselves.

I'm born again (which in the Greek is actually anothen meaning from above, proving it's God doing the work).

I have been a believer all my life for as long as I can remember so there is not "time" that I can pinpoint to you. God gave me faith. I didn't choose what God already gave to me.

Faith comes to us from God and it comes by His Word. That's simultaneous.

 

[Lanman87]

In addition, they play upon the emotions big time, which is not proper evangelism. An altar call is NOT simply a kind of proclaiming of the Gospel, despite your description. If it were such, most of what an altar call involves would not be present in them!

I disagree with this premise. The Gospel is the Gospel whether it is proclaimed loudly and with emotion or quietly in a whisper. God can and does use both our emotions and our intellect to make us aware of our sinfulness, need for forgiveness, and that we need to trust in Christ alone. There is nothing wrong with an emotional response to the gospel. I would go as far to say that a completely emotionless response to the gospel shows that someone doesn't really get the beauty and majesty and Glory of God. That response doesn't have to be weeping or jumping for joy (although there is nothing wrong with that), but our hearts should always be stirred and broken when we look upon our sin and the sacrifice of Christ on the cross on our behalf.

The danger isn't an emotional appeal to believe and repent and trust Christ. It is a manipulative appeal where the Gospel is misrepresented in order to coerce "decisions". It is a pastor proclaiming that if you "Choose Jesus" your life will be better, you will have more money, all your problems will be solved, you will be healed of sickness, your marriage will get better, and so on.

The purpose of the altar call (or invitation) is to encourage someone to take a good hard look at where they are at spiritually and respond to the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is a time to remove distractions and honestly deal with where we are at with God.

For instance, I remember evangelist asking everyone to bow their head and close their eyes. Quiet music would be playing. The preacher would say something like this. "I want you to be honest with yourself when I ask you this question, Have you ever truly trusted in Christ alone for your salvation? Do you really know Jesus or have you been putting on a show for others? Have you been playing church or do you really believe? If you can't say for sure that you know Jesus then we invite you to come forward and speak to a counselor and pray with us. "

Back to my original question, What is wrong with that? What is wrong with asking those questions?

And just as a side note, the invitation time in our Baptist church wasn't just about people coming to faith. It was also a time for people to make public spiritual struggles and renewal and it is a call to prayer. It was not unusual to see spouses kneel down and pray together over some personal issue or even entire families kneeling and praying together. I was not unheard of for most of the congregation to come and kneel and pray during the invitation.

 

[Albion]

I disagree with this premise.

Obviously, most fundamentalists and charismatics who are members of those churches would do so as well since it's their churches that engage in such practices because they think they are proper and good. But I did refer readers to the reasons that mainstream Christianity has never gone in for such gimmicks, and I do think that those reasons are sound.

The Gospel is the Gospel whether it is proclaimed loudly and with emotion or quietly in a whisper.

Not the issue.

God can and does use both our emotions and our intellect to make us aware of our sinfulness, need for forgiveness, and that we need to trust in Christ alone.

That there is an emotional aspect of some sort present in most religious observances is understood and was not the point of disagreement in what I wrote.

There is nothing wrong with an emotional response to the gospel.

...depending of course on which emotion is being referred to and which situation we're referring to and whether or not it displaces our other guides.

I would go as far to say that a completely emotionless response to the gospel shows that someone doesn't really get the beauty and majesty and Glory of God.

Again, not the issue.

The purpose of the altar call (or invitation) is to encourage someone to take a good hard look at where they are at spiritually and respond to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Sure. The "purpose" or intention was not in doubt. The issue at hand was the practice that we term an "altar call."

Back to my original question, What is wrong with that? What is wrong with asking those questions?

See my previous post for several aspects of altar calls that I criticized.

And just as a side note, the invitation time in our Baptist church wasn't just about people coming to faith. It was also a time for people to make public spiritual struggles and renewal and it is a call to prayer.

Then that was not what this discussion was about, right? No, the criticisms that I and others itemized were specific and did not include everything that a pastor might say to the people, urging them to repentance or etc. etc. It was always about the typical "altar call" which we all are familiar with in one way or another.

It was not unusual to see spouses kneel down and pray together over some personal issue or even entire families kneeling and praying together. I was not unheard of for most of the congregation to come and kneel and pray during the invitation.

Do you seriously think that families kneeling in prayer together was the focus of the posts here that took a dim view of the technique called an "altar call" as practiced in some churches? By the same token, we did not denounce emotion or pastors urging people to repentance, etc. etc., either. It has been all about that technique that's called an "altar call."

But thank you for taking the time to respond and to outline your thoughts as completely and carefully as you did here. This strikes me as a somewhat unusual topic since it's not about a doctrine that some believers consider essential while other Christians think of the same thing as heretical or something else in that vein. Instead, it's mainly a disagreement over which approach is the best way to realize an outcome that all of us know is important.

 

[Lamb]

For instance, I remember evangelist asking everyone to bow their head and close their eyes. Quiet music would be playing. The preacher would say something like this. "I want you to be honest with yourself when I ask you this question, Have you ever truly trusted in Christ alone for your salvation? Do you really know Jesus or have you been putting on a show for others? Have you been playing church or do you really believe? If you can't say for sure that you know Jesus then we invite you to come forward and speak to a counselor and pray with us. "

Back to my original question, What is wrong with that? What is wrong with asking those questions?

I'll tell you what is wrong with that...

The question of
Have you ever truly trusted in Christ alone for your salvation?

That puts doubt in the congregation the way it's posed. It's as if you didn't trust enough so you might have to come back up here to the altar and do it all again.

Next question:
Do you really know Jesus or have you been putting on a show for others?

Wow, as if to say that God's word isn't feeding the congregation in church? If someone confesses God then he has done so by the power of God.

Next question:
Have you been playing church or do you really believe?

Again, isn't your congregation being fed during the church service by God's word to strengthen their faith? Playing church? What's that? We're all sinners and being in church is the place to be fed upon God's word. God's word is effective and the Holy Spirit uses the Word to build up our faith.

Last question:
If you can't say for sure that you know Jesus then we invite you to come forward and speak to a counselor and pray with us.

If by the end of the service the person attending church hasn't heard that Jesus died for their sins and their sins are forgiven then something is wrong with that church.

At my church, you invite them to return to church again to continue to be fed upon God's Word.

 

[Lanman87]

That puts doubt in the congregation the way it's posed. It's as if you didn't trust enough so you might have to come back up here to the altar and do it all again.

2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

All of those questions are asking people to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.

The question is not "Did I trust enough", the question is "did I trust as all"?

If you can't say for sure that you know Jesus then we invite you to come forward and speak to a counselor and pray with us.

If by the end of the service the person attending church hasn't heard that Jesus died for their sins and their sins are forgiven then something is wrong with that church.

They have heard and this gives them an opportunity to respond to the Spirits call.

 

[Lamb]

2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

All of those questions are asking people to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.

The question is not "Did I trust enough", the question is "did I trust as all"?



They have heard and this gives them an opportunity to respond to the Spirits call.

Examine ourselves ...and right there in the verse it gives you the answer...JESUS. Don't look within...look to Jesus. Don't ask Do I believe enough? Ask what do you believe? Do you believe that Jesus died for you and your sins are forgiven?

The Gospel has the power to bring faith to man. Instead of asking if they trusted at all after they already made a confession of faith...give them more of the Gospel!

I've known many friends who kept going up to those altar calls because they were put on a guilt trip. They surely thought that by going up that it would make them more of a believer...instead of hearing more of Jesus.

If we want people to believe, we give them the Savior.

 

[Lanman87]

Playing church? What's that?

Playing church is attending church and participating in church activities without a personal saving faith in Christ. It is being religious, because of cultural or family norms and expectations, and not out of a personal faith. I would submit that our churches are full of these people.

 

[Lamb]

Playing church is attending church and participating in church activities without a personal saving faith in Christ. It is being religious, because of cultural or family norms and expectations, and not out of a personal faith. I would submit that our churches are full of these people.

So, here's the answer to your suspect of your neighbor....give them more of Jesus.

 

[Lanman87]

The Gospel has the power to bring faith to man. Instead of asking if they trusted at all after they already made a confession of faith...give them more of the Gospel!

The problem with that is a confession of faith isn't the same thing as possession of faith.

 

[Albion]

The problem with that is a confession of faith isn't the same thing as possession of faith.

?? So how does an 'altar call' remedy that situation by leading the person to believe that his coming forward and repeating verbatim a statement that the pastor or assistant gives him will result in him being saved?

 

[Lanman87]

So how does an altar call remedy that situation by telling the person that his coming forward and repeating verbatim a statement that the pastor or assistant gives him to say results in him then having been saved?

Because it gives them an opportunity to examine themselves to see if they merely confess faith or if they actually posses faith. To be sure that is just one opportunity of many possible opportunities. God can and does work on peoples hearts and minds in many different ways, places, and circumstances.

You can say the "sinner's prayer" a thousand times and not posses faith. And you don't ever have to say the "sinner's prayer" to have a deep and abiding faith. Ultimately the answer to the question of "Do I possess faith" comes down to more than what have I done. It comes down to "What has God done to me". The answer given people who come down is not always, "Say the sinners prayer and you will be okay". Sometimes, after talking it out with them it is clear that they do have a saving faith and just need someone to point out the evidence that their faith is real. That God has changed their hearts from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh and that their affections and desires are seeking God's glory instead of their own.

 

[Lees]

The Resurrection isn't where the atonement was made. It's the cross and that's why the pastor pointed that out. Your forgiveness of sins, which is what you need to be reconciled to God, took place at the cross. The Resurrection is proof that God accepted the sacrifice because it means that Jesus lives, just as we will live when we are resurrected.

You still haven't addressed how the unregenerate can turn themselves to God without faith.

I'll answer your questions but I'd really like you to address the above about the unregenerate and especially how the Gospel is foolishness to the unbeliever.

It's God who makes us born again. Not ourselves.

I'm born again (which in the Greek is actually anothen meaning from above, proving it's God doing the work).

I have been a believer all my life for as long as I can remember so there is not "time" that I can pinpoint to you. God gave me faith. I didn't choose what God already gave to me.

Faith comes to us from God and it comes by His Word. That's simultaneous.

I didn't say the Resurrection is where the atonement was made. Your man, your video said the Resurrection doesn't save. And in that he is wrong. The Resurrection is as much a part of salvation as the Cross. Our salvation entails the Cross, the Death, the Resurrection, our faith.

I asked you to give the specific verse or verses you are speaking of. I know the verses you are speaking of, but I want you to give them so that I don't assume and then write a reply to which you say, that is not the verse you had in mind.

Of course it's God who gives us new-birth. I haven't said anything different. Where we differ is that you believe we are born-again first and then believe. I reject that totally. The Holy Spirit's work in convicting us and pressing on our spirit the need for a Saviour, leading us to receive, and believe on Jesus Christ....is that all done after we are born again?

The verse you are referring to is (John3:3). It does mean to be 'born from above'. Then in (John 3:5) the new birth is addressed. But, the verse I gave you was (1 Peter 1:3). It speaks to the new-birth. Which means, we are born again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. That occurs when we believe.

This is why your man on the video is wrong. On this side of the Cross, if you are not born-again, you are not saved. And your born-again by the Resurrection. The Cross plays a role of course. But if you are not born-again, you are not saved.

Also, do you adhere to 'Limited Atonement'?


Lees

 

[Albion]

Because it gives them an opportunity to examine themselves to see if they merely confess faith or if they actually posses faith.

Yes, but we cannot adequately describe an altar call in such slimmed-down terms.

It is what it is and does, not simply what a deliberately narrow and selective view like this one conveys. Indeed, if we were to accept the statement that's quoted above, it could fit a wide range of church activities and not come close to describing what an altar call actually is.

 

[Lamb]

The problem with that is a confession of faith isn't the same thing as possession of faith.

So feed them instead of guilting them. Feed them on Christ, His death, atonement, etc... FEED the sheep. Don't make them look inward when they should be looking to our triune God and what He has done for salvation. That's where their faith lies and clings to. Don't ask if they have enough faith, ask if they have a Savior.

Because it gives them an opportunity to examine themselves to see if they merely confess faith or if they actually posses faith. To be sure that is just one opportunity of many possible opportunities. God can and does work on peoples hearts and minds in many different ways, places, and circumstances.

You can say the "sinner's prayer" a thousand times and not posses faith. And you don't ever have to say the "sinner's prayer" to have a deep and abiding faith. Ultimately the answer to the question of "Do I possess faith" comes down to more than what have I done. It comes down to "What has God done to me". The answer given people who come down is not always, "Say the sinners prayer and you will be okay". Sometimes, after talking it out with them it is clear that they do have a saving faith and just need someone to point out the evidence that their faith is real. That God has changed their hearts from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh and that their affections and desires are seeking God's glory instead of their own.

No one in liturgical churches says the Sinners Prayer because it's not biblical. Evidence of faith being real is to point to Jesus. So why not just do that instead of altar calls that makes people look at themselves instead of the cross?

I didn't say the Resurrection is where the atonement was made. Your man, your video said the Resurrection doesn't save. And in that he is wrong. The Resurrection is as much a part of salvation as the Cross. Our salvation entails the Cross, the Death, the Resurrection, our faith.

I asked you to give the specific verse or verses you are speaking of. I know the verses you are speaking of, but I want you to give them so that I don't assume and then write a reply to which you say, that is not the verse you had in mind.

Of course it's God who gives us new-birth. I haven't said anything different. Where we differ is that you believe we are born-again first and then believe. I reject that totally. The Holy Spirit's work in convicting us and pressing on our spirit the need for a Saviour, leading us to receive, and believe on Jesus Christ....is that all done after we are born again?

The verse you are referring to is (John3:3). It does mean to be 'born from above'. Then in (John 3:5) the new birth is addressed. But, the verse I gave you was (1 Peter 1:3). It speaks to the new-birth. Which means, we are born again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. That occurs when we believe.

This is why your man on the video is wrong. On this side of the Cross, if you are not born-again, you are not saved. And your born-again by the Resurrection. The Cross plays a role of course. But if you are not born-again, you are not saved.

Also, do you adhere to 'Limited Atonement'?


Lees

Let me get this straight...are you saying that God doesn't give you new birth until YOU decide?

 

[Lamb]

The Holy Spirit's work in convicting us and pressing on our spirit the need for a Saviour, leading us to receive, and believe on Jesus Christ....is that all done after we are born again?

I forgot to address this part...
The Holy Spirit pressing us on our need for a Savior is LAW. The Law accuses us of our sin. The Law shows us that we cannot do what needs to be done to be righteous.

That's not being born again. That's not regenerative.

What regenerates us is the giving us of the Savior through the Gospel which tells us that Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. Don't you preach forgiveness?????

Oh, and start a new topic if you want to go on tangents like Limited Atonement.

 

[Lees]

I forgot to address this part...
The Holy Spirit pressing us on our need for a Savior is LAW. The Law accuses us of our sin. The Law shows us that we cannot do what needs to be done to be righteous.

That's not being born again. That's not regenerative.

What regenerates us is the giving us of the Savior through the Gospel which tells us that Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. Don't you preach forgiveness?????

Oh, and start a new topic if you want to go on tangents like Limited Atonement.

You keep forgetting a lot of parts. I asked you for the verses of your question to me. Do you know them? Or do you just want me to find them for you?

No, the Holy Spirit's conviction upon our spirit is the actual pressure He puts on one to bring him to Christ. The Law is the law.

What's not being born again? What's not regenerative? (1 Peter 1:3) and (John 3:5) is the new birth.

No. What regenerates us is the Holy Spirit, giving new life to our spirit. The new birth. The Cross made that a possibility. But the Cross did not regenerate anyone.

Tangents? OK. We will see if 'limited atonement' is a tangent. You and your video man says the Cross saves and not the Resurrection. Then everyone who ever existed is saved, because Christ died for all. Correct? Or...did He not die for all? Hence...limited atonement.

So, is that what you believe? That everyone, ever born of Adam is saved?

Lees