Decision Theology

[Lanman87]

When you stress it's what the unsaved person DOES that thus makes that person saved, then it's not only a work but the work of that person - and the very thing that means he is saved.

I think this boils down to how you perceive that belief is a work.

I don't believe that belief is a work. Romans 4:5 shows that works and belief are not the same thing.

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

A work is something we do to earn something. Belief is not earning anything, it is how we accept the Gift of Eternal life.

If I have $100 bill for you that is completely free with no strings attached and I say "here is your $100" and you reach up and take the $100 in your hand and put it in your pocket then have you worked for $100. No, you did nothing to earn the $100. You accepted a free gift.

Belief/faith is the mechanism God ordained for us to accept His free gift. But because or wills are in bondage to sin, so much so that we are spiritually dead, we can't accept the gift of Eternal life by an act of our own will. You can wave $100 bills in front of a dead person all day long and nothing will happen. Before our will can make a decision to receive the gift of eternal life by faith, God must move in our hearts to bring us to Spiritual Life and Free our will from the bondage of sin. It is only then that a person can respond to the Gospel in faith.

God brings us to life and sets our wills free. As a result, we respond to God by reaching out for him in Faith. Our "reaching out" is not us saving ourselves or doing our part to "earn" salvation. Faith is like taking the $100 and putting it into our pocket. We did something, but we didn't "earn" something. My Reformed friends would say that this process is irresistible. That when God brings us to life and frees our wills so that we can believe then we will believe. Not because God is holding a gun to our heads and forcing us to believe, but because when we truly understand our sinfulness and the beauty of Christ we want to believe. The Holy Spirit changes our affections and desires so that we "want Jesus". We desire to "Drink the living water" and "Eat the bread of life" and "do all to the Glory of God".

We can preach the gospel all we want, give alter calls, do personal witnessing, and develop relationships all we want but until God moves to overcome death and bondage then nothing will happen.

At the same time, we can very clumsily and inarticulately share the gospel with someone and tell someone to "believe and repent" and if the Holy Spirit is moving on that person they will be brought from death to life and be set free from the bondage of sin and reply "I do believe and repent".

To bring us back to the original topic.

I understand why alter calls are considered bad by many people. The chief problem is that they can lead to "false professions of faith" where someone gets caught up in the emotion or peer pressure to respond and "come forward" and "say the sinners prayer", yet God has not brought them from death to life. They may live their life thinking that they are "saved" because they went forward and said the sinner's prayer and now they have fire insurance and can go on like nothing happened.

On the other hand, we need to present the gospel and give people an opportunity to respond at every opportunity. We don't know what seeds have been planted, what conversations have taken place, and whom the Holy Spirit is moving upon to bring to faith.

I wonder if, because of the possible issues of the former, we have neglected the latter.

 

[Albion]

I think this boils down to how you perceive that belief is a work.

As I read that post, Josaiah isn't saying that.

If one is a believer, he will naturally want to perform as Jesus taught his listeners to do, but that doesn't mean that this response to Faith earns a believer any credits towards salvation...which is what a theology that incorporates meritorious works believes in.

I don't believe that belief is a work. Romans 4:5 shows that works and belief are not the same thing.

That's correct.

 

[Lanman87]

As I read that post, Josaiah isn't saying that.

He seems to be saying that if we ask someone "Will you believe and repent?" that we are asking them to somehow contribute to their own salvation. That can only be true if faith earns salvation.

I believe Faith is how we accept God's free Gift, not how we earn God's free Gift.

Which is one reason I understand the need to proclaim the Gospel (be it alter calls or any other way). We explain the gospel of Christ and ask them if they want to receive the free gift of Eternal Life by placing their faith in Christ.

 

[Lamb]

He seems to be saying that if we ask someone "Will you believe and repent?" that we are asking them to somehow contribute to their own salvation. That can only be true if faith earns salvation.

I believe Faith is how we accept God's free Gift, not how we earn God's free Gift.

Which is one reason I understand the need to proclaim the Gospel (be it alter calls or any other way). We explain the gospel of Christ and ask them if they want to receive the free gift of Eternal Life by placing their faith in Christ.

But that's the problem. You're setting that "gospel" up as if preaching the Gospel hasn't already caused faith to be placed upon that person by God. We receive what God gives, but we aren't actively grasping for it as if God's hand is just out of reach. He gives faith. He doesn't reach His hand out and say grab it, which is what decision theology says.

God's Word effects faith unto us. God's word is active and alive and when the Gospel is preached, it changes us from unbelievers into believers...because it's the power of the word to do so. That's what decision theology doesn't believe.

 

[Lamb]

Another bad thing about decision theology is it makes it appear as if God has to ask our permission before He can bring salvation unto us. That's not biblical.

 

[Josiah]

.

Belief/faith is the mechanism God ordained for us to accept His free gift.

"Accepting the gift" is a work. Obviously, undeniably. The question is: Whose?

It's a question Scripture answers, and (not surprisingly) in a way that affirms that God is the Savior, not self. That the actions of the dead, unregenerate, atheistic enemy of God are NOT the reason they have spiritual life, faith, salvation and heaven. God is.

But because or wills are in bondage to sin, so much so that we are spiritually dead, we can't accept the gift of Eternal life by an act of our own will.

Absolutely!

The dead one CANNOT decide, CANNOT create faith, CANNOT understand, CANNOT give self the Holy Spirit, CANNOT give self spiritual life and saving faith and forgiveness and salvation. Just as Scripture states. When you enter those proverbial pearly gates, you should not pat yourself on the back and insist, "What a good work I did!" Nope. More appropriate would be "Thank you, Jesus!"

You can wave $100 bills in front of a dead person all day long and nothing will happen.

Correct!

To bring us back to the original topic.

I understand why alter calls are considered bad by many people. The chief problem is that they can lead to "false professions of faith" where someone gets caught up in the emotion or peer pressure to respond and "come forward" and "say the sinners prayer", yet God has not brought them from death to life. They may live their life thinking that they are "saved" because they went forward and said the sinner's prayer and now they have fire insurance and can go on like nothing happened.

On the other hand, we need to present the gospel and give people an opportunity to respond at every opportunity. We don't know what seeds have been planted, what conversations have taken place, and whom the Holy Spirit is moving upon to bring to faith.

I wonder if, because of the possible issues of the former, we have neglected the latter.

I have nothing against altar calls, per se.

There's a sense in which Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans and Presbyterians also do this, but we do it very thoughtfully after extensive Christian education, not an emotional thing. Nothing wrong with publicly declaring our faith and discipleship. We call it Confirmation.

What makes me uncomfortable is the view that this person DOING THIS, performing this work, is WHY they have spiritual life, saving faith, justification, forgiveness, heaven. Jesus OFFERED something to a dead, unregenerate, spiritually lifeless, atheistic enemy of God void of the Holy
Spirit.... and as a result of that one performing this good work of responding to the Altar Call, God thus could reward them with the Spirit, Life, faith, forgiveness, justification and heaven. Glory be to Self.

Now, as I wrote in a post above, I very much recall a Reformed Baptist preacher inviting folks down for an Altar Call and saying something like, "Now, if your heart is beating... if your palms are sweaty.... if the Spirit is shouting to you to come down an declare your faith.... then you have faith and you need to declare that and commit yourself to growing as a Christian." As a Lutheran, I'm absolutely okay with THAT. But MY experience with the "decision" types is "I'm saved BECAUSE I....." Lutherans encourage folks to took to the Cross, not in the mirror... to embrace Jesus as the Savior, not self.


Blessings!


Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

He seems to be saying that if we ask someone "Will you believe and repent?" that we are asking them to somehow contribute to their own salvation. That can only be true if faith earns salvation.

And they cannot answer that question in the affirmative, no matter how often it is asked, unless it's by God's will. That would be Josiah's position, as I read his posts.

I believe Faith is how we accept God's free Gift, not how we earn God's free Gift.

Agreed. There's no "earning" involved.

Which is one reason I understand the need to proclaim the Gospel (be it alter calls or any other way). We explain the gospel of Christ and ask them if they want to receive the free gift of Eternal Life by placing their faith in Christ.

All that this shows is that we are the means by which those who have been chosen by God to Faith are activated. 'We are God's hands,' some people prefer to say. Christ told his Apostles to go into all the world (that's right), to preach the Gospel (right again), and to baptize the converts.

 

[Lees]

You inserted NOTHING about God in your statement about what you think we believe. So go back, rewrite it according to what Josiah and I have written (repeatedly).

I don't know how you say I have inserted nothing about God.

I don't have to rewrite anything. Go back to post #(86).

Then compare to my statement and question in post #(99).

Then note how you responded to my post #(86). You ignored all but one sentence.

Then note how you ignored the same question in your response to my post #(99).

So, I will ask again. Do you believe a man is born-again first and then he believes?"

Lees

 

[Lees]

Another bad thing about decision theology is it makes it appear as if God has to ask our permission before He can bring salvation unto us. That's not biblical.

That is what you and others dream up. But your dreams are not Scripture. I have given Scripture in (Rom. 10) to which none have responded.

Again, do you believe you are born-again first and then believe? Please answer.

Lees

 

[Lees]

But that's the problem. You're setting that "gospel" up as if preaching the Gospel hasn't already caused faith to be placed upon that person by God. We receive what God gives, but we aren't actively grasping for it as if God's hand is just out of reach. He gives faith. He doesn't reach His hand out and say grab it, which is what decision theology says.

God's Word effects faith unto us. God's word is active and alive and when the Gospel is preached, it changes us from unbelievers into believers...because it's the power of the word to do so. That's what decision theology doesn't believe.

God's Word affects us only if we believe.

We are not changed until we believe. Correct?

Lees

 

[Albion]

That is what you and others dream up. But your dreams are not Scripture.

Let's see. You are the poster who believes in deciding for himself what part of the Bible he'll accept and which parts he'll dismiss. That being the case, the criticism here isn't either consistent or logical.

God's Word affects us only if we believe.

There is plenty in Scripture that deals with the entirety of Creation, so to say that nonbelievers are unaffected by the contents doesn't seem correct. For example, if it DOES affect believers, then what they do as a result may well (and it has in the past) have a significant impact upon the rest of the world.

 

[Lamb]

I don't know how you say I have inserted nothing about God.

I don't have to rewrite anything. Go back to post #(86).

Then compare to my statement and question in post #(99).

Then note how you responded to my post #(86). You ignored all but one sentence.

Then note how you ignored the same question in your response to my post #(99).

So, I will ask again. Do you believe a man is born-again first and then he believes?"

Lees

You have not correctly stated the position that Josiah and I have been putting forth (not in post 86, not anywhere here in this thread). It shows that you are not reading what we have been saying since when you try to reiterate it in your own words, you don't clearly state what God does as we have presented repeatedly.

That is what you and others dream up. But your dreams are not Scripture. I have given Scripture in (Rom. 10) to which none have responded.

Again, do you believe you are born-again first and then believe? Please answer.

Lees

I've already quoted Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

That verse shows that God uses the Gospel message to effect faith into people.

You keep asking an irrelevant question...
God gives faith which at the same time converts us and we believe.

God's Word affects us only if we believe.

We are not changed until we believe. Correct?

Lees

God changes us and we believe at the same time. It's not God waiting for us to do something. He does it all. That's why we have a God who saves us 100% and we are saved "by grace through faith".

If you had read clearly what Josiah and I were saying, you wouldn't keep asking the questions you've asked because we already addressed that.

 

[Lees]

Let's see. You are the poster who believes in deciding for himself what part of the Bible he'll accept and which parts he'll dismiss. That being the case, the criticism here isn't either consistent or logical.


There is plenty in Scripture that deals with the entirety of Creation, so to say that nonbelievers are unaffected by the contents doesn't seem correct. For example, if it DOES affect believers, then what they do as a result may well (and it has in the past) have a significant impact upon the rest of the world.

Sorry, that's a lie.

If you can't stay in the context of what is being discussed, you shouldn't enter into a post not addressed to you.

Lees

 

[Albion]

Sorry, that's a lie.

I'd advise you to not resort to personal attacks like this one whenever your line of reasoning or your claims have missed the mark.

Most of the time, the other people here do nothing more than correct the mistakes of fact that they are reading from you or else they're calling on you to clarify something you've stated poorly...so that whatever the issue of the thread has been has a chance of being moved along to a conclusion.

 

[Lees]

You have not correctly stated the position that Josiah and I have been putting forth (not in post 86, not anywhere here in this thread). It shows that you are not reading what we have been saying since when you try to reiterate it in your own words, you don't clearly state what God does as we have presented repeatedly.



I've already quoted Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

That verse shows that God uses the Gospel message to effect faith into people.

You keep asking an irrelevant question...
God gives faith which at the same time converts us and we believe.



God changes us and we believe at the same time. It's not God waiting for us to do something. He does it all. That's why we have a God who saves us 100% and we are saved "by grace through faith".

If you had read clearly what Josiah and I were saying, you wouldn't keep asking the questions you've asked because we already addressed that.

I have stated correctly your position. You believe one is born again first and then believes. You no doubt see the absurdity in it, but that is what you are saying.

You say dead men can't do anything to be brought to life. Post #(75) They can't breathe until new life is breathed into them by God. Post #(77)

Yet, we are saved by faith, correct? Which is a gift to us. (Eph. 2:8)

But we must hear what to believe first. (Rom. 10:17) Because faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Thus there is a point in time when you hear but are not saved, are not born again. But upon hearing, you believe, and are saved.

No, God does not change us and we believe at the same time. No, God doesn't give faith and at the same time converts us and we believe. We hear the Word of God. He gives us ears to hear the Word. We then believe. That is the order.

Again, your order is that man is born-again and then believes.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

I have stated correctly your position. You believe one is born again first and then believes. You no doubt see the absurdity in it, but that is what you are saying.

You say dead men can't do anything to be brought to life. Post #(75) They can't breathe until new life is breathed into them by God. Post #(77)

Yet, we are saved by faith, correct? Which is a gift to us. (Eph. 2:8)

But we must hear what to believe first. (Rom. 10:17) Because faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Thus there is a point in time when you hear but are not saved, are not born again. But upon hearing, you believe, and are saved.

No, God does not change us and we believe at the same time. No, God doesn't give faith and at the same time converts us and we believe. We hear the Word of God. He gives us ears to hear the Word. We then believe. That is the order.

Again, your order is that man is born-again and then believes.

Lees

Wow. You have really taken away all that God has said He does to save us and put it onto man.

The ORDER as you so put it is simultaneous. God gives faith and that's conversion. It happens at the same time. There is no separation as you keep trying to put it.

You have put man's reasoning into the equation which is why you can't follow that God is the one completely at work. The spiritually dead think the Gospel is foolish. Remember that verse?

 

[Lees]

Wow. You have really taken away all that God has said He does to save us and put it onto man.

The ORDER as you so put it is simultaneous. God gives faith and that's conversion. It happens at the same time. There is no separation as you keep trying to put it.

You have put man's reasoning into the equation which is why you can't follow that God is the one completely at work. The spiritually dead think the Gospel is foolish. Remember that verse?

That is not so. Salvation is all of God, but it follows a process that has been created by God.

The hearing the Word of God, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, all come prior to our belief. That is our belief which is also a gift from God. Not our reasoning.

The elect are spiritually dead also until they believe. And it is those that the Holy Spirit convicts to the place of salvation.

These are fine lines we are drawing here, but important. Because your man must be born-again first before he can believe.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

That is not so. Salvation is all of God, but it follows a process that has been created by God.

The hearing the Word of God, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, all come prior to our belief. That is our belief which is also a gift from God. Not our reasoning.

The elect are spiritually dead also until they believe. And it is those that the Holy Spirit convicts to the place of salvation.

These are fine lines we are drawing here, but important. Because your man must be born-again first before he can believe.

Lees

The Holy Spirit uses the Word for us to "hear" the Gospel. As you know, even the deaf can "hear" the Gospel because it's not just auditory. Someone can "read" the Gospel and the Holy Spirit will convert that person according to His will. The Word is preached and the Holy Spirit uses that to bring us to faith, meaning we believe. Conversion means that we've come to faith. I dunno what your definition of conversion is.

Christian Cyclopedia

(Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia)

cyclopedia.lcms.org

 

[Albion]

He seems to be saying that if we ask someone "Will you believe and repent?" that we are asking them to somehow contribute to their own salvation. That can only be true if faith earns salvation.

I believe Faith is how we accept God's free Gift, not how we earn God's free Gift.

Which is one reason I understand the need to proclaim the Gospel (be it alter calls or any other way). We explain the gospel of Christ and ask them if they want to receive the free gift of Eternal Life by placing their faith in Christ.

First, they're altar calls, not alter calls, even if something gets changed or altered.

Second, altar calls--as has been said here before--are highly questionable for more mundane reasons. They not only make the participant think that "he's now saved" just like that, and that it's mainly their doing, but they pressure the people in the audience to make that move and not hold back.

In addition, they play upon the emotions big time, which is not proper evangelism. An altar call is NOT simply a kind of proclaiming of the Gospel, despite your description. If it were such, most of what an altar call involves would not be present in them!

 

[Lamb]

Great video that addresses all of this conversation (can be begin watching at 2:50):