Decision Theology

[Lees]

God's word brings life. Do you agree with that or not?

Questions, questions all love to ask. Funny how you love to ask questions but ignore the ones I ask.

Your 'dead man' can't do anything, according to you. He can't walk, talk, or believe, or think, or hear. He's dead.

Your statement 'God's word brings life' is very deceptive. It also brings death. So, just what are you asking?

Lees

 

[Lees]

James 1:18 God decided to give us life through the word of truth so we might be the most important of all the things he made.

Nice paraphrase. So?

Lees

 

[Lamb]

Questions, questions all love to ask. Funny how you love to ask questions but ignore the ones I ask.

Your 'dead man' can't do anything, according to you. He can't walk, talk, or believe, or think, or hear. He's dead.

Your statement 'God's word brings life' is very deceptive. It also brings death. So, just what are you asking?

Lees

Of course a man who is spiritually dead cannot do anything...but God can bring him to life through His word. The man doesn't DO anything.

Don't you recall how God told Ezekial to talk to the old, dry bones and bring them back to life? The bones couldn't choose to come back to life. They couldn't hear. They couldn't believe.

"So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army." Ezekial 37:10

 

[Josiah]

Questions, questions all love to ask. Funny how you love to ask questions but ignore the ones I ask.

Your 'dead man' can't do anything, according to you. He can't walk, talk, or believe, or think, or hear. He's dead.

Your statement 'God's word brings life' is very deceptive. It also brings death. So, just what are you asking?

Lees

Lees,

This is just absurd. Obviously, the Scripture that verbatim states that who are unregenerate are "dead" does not mean PHYSICALLY dead (they breathe, etc.) but are SPIRITUALLY dead. A Buddhist is alive physically but they do not have spiritual life. You know that. We all do. Please get real here.

The Bible says that without the Holy Spirit, we CANNOT (unable to do so, UNABLE) to even say "Jesus is Lord" (a statement of faith - yes, the Buddhist can physically parrot the words like a parrot but not MEAN them) unless the Holy Spirit so empowers/enables. The Bible STATES that without the activity of God, we are DEAD (spiritually).


This whole "decision theology" falls down at two key points:

1. The fundamental (and very unbiblical) assumption that a DEAD, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God can GIVE SELF spiritual life, saving faith, salvation (or even would want to). The Bible says that such is the "GIFT" of God, the "free gift" of God.

2. The fundamental (and very unbiblical) assumption that Jesus is NOT the Savior since He saves no one. Not ever. Not even one. Some "decision" Evangelicals will even say that. Jesus doesn't save, instead of that, in lieu of that, He makes salvation AVAILABLE to everyone... but it's up to each DEAD, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God to save himself by availing himself of that. He will enter heaven because of what this dead, unregenerate, atheistic enemy did - not what Jesus did. Salvation for that person is NOT because of what Jesus did on the Cross but what THEY did at Bible camp when they were 13.




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[Lamb]

Lees,

This is just absurd. Obviously, the Scripture that verbatim states that who are unregenerate are "dead" does not mean PHYSICALLY dead (they breathe, etc.) but are SPIRITUALLY dead. A Buddhist is alive physically but they do not have spiritual life. You know that. We all do. Please get real here.

The Bible says that without the Holy Spirit, we CANNOT (unable to do so, UNABLE) to even say "Jesus is Lord" (a statement of faith - yes, the Buddhist can physically parrot the words like a parrot but not MEAN them) unless the Holy Spirit so empowers/enables. The Bible STATES that without the activity of God, we are DEAD (spiritually).


This whole "decision theology" falls down at two key points:

1. The fundamental (and very unbiblical) assumption that a DEAD, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God can GIVE SELF spiritual life, saving faith, salvation (or even would want to). The Bible says that such is the "GIFT" of God, the "free gift" of God.

2. The fundamental (and very unbiblical) assumption that Jesus is NOT the Savior since He saves no one. Not ever. Not even one. Some "decision" Evangelicals will even say that. Jesus doesn't save, instead of that, in lieu of that, He makes salvation AVAILABLE to everyone... but it's up to each DEAD, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God to save himself by availing himself of that. He will enter heaven because of what this dead, unregenerate, atheistic enemy did - not what Jesus did. Salvation for that person is NOT because of what Jesus did on the Cross but what THEY did at Bible camp when they were 13.

Exactly! Decision Theology thinks that God needs our permission before we can have salvation from Him. Adam didn't ask for permission to be alive. Lazarus didn't ask for permission to be brought back to life.

Decision Theology minimizes the position that the non-believer is in instead of fully understanding the impact of sin and separation from God due to unbelief.

 

[Lees]

Of course a man who is spiritually dead cannot do anything...but God can bring him to life through His word. The man doesn't DO anything.

Don't you recall how God told Ezekial to talk to the old, dry bones and bring them back to life? The bones couldn't choose to come back to life. They couldn't hear. They couldn't believe.

"So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army." Ezekial 37:10

How can He bring him to life if he is dead and can't hear? It's your analogy, not mine. You don't want him to do anything becuse he is dead. But you want him to be able to hear. So, if God does a work so the man can hear, then He has also awakened his understanding, and will, and decision making ability.

I have no problem, as I have said, that salvation is by faith alone. Not works. But you have moved works into the area of decision making to the degree that you consider when one responds to the Gospel, and believes, and makes a decison to follow Christ, that that is wrong. What you are saying is that the man is born-again first and then believes? Correct?

What I am saying is that when you believe you are saved. But when you believe, your natural abilites of mind, and understanding, and will, are active making it only natural to make a decision. That decision is not a work, but the result of your believing.

In other words, I disagree that a man is first born-again, and then believes.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Lees,

This is just absurd. Obviously, the Scripture that verbatim states that who are unregenerate are "dead" does not mean PHYSICALLY dead (they breathe, etc.) but are SPIRITUALLY dead. A Buddhist is alive physically but they do not have spiritual life. You know that. We all do. Please get real here.

The Bible says that without the Holy Spirit, we CANNOT (unable to do so, UNABLE) to even say "Jesus is Lord" (a statement of faith - yes, the Buddhist can physically parrot the words like a parrot but not MEAN them) unless the Holy Spirit so empowers/enables. The Bible STATES that without the activity of God, we are DEAD (spiritually).


This whole "decision theology" falls down at two key points:

1. The fundamental (and very unbiblical) assumption that a DEAD, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God can GIVE SELF spiritual life, saving faith, salvation (or even would want to). The Bible says that such is the "GIFT" of God, the "free gift" of God.

2. The fundamental (and very unbiblical) assumption that Jesus is NOT the Savior since He saves no one. Not ever. Not even one. Some "decision" Evangelicals will even say that. Jesus doesn't save, instead of that, in lieu of that, He makes salvation AVAILABLE to everyone... but it's up to each DEAD, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God to save himself by availing himself of that. He will enter heaven because of what this dead, unregenerate, atheistic enemy did - not what Jesus did. Salvation for that person is NOT because of what Jesus did on the Cross but what THEY did at Bible camp when they were 13.




.

Well, I was thinking it was absurd also. Still do.

I haven't heard that anyone has said that anyone can give themself's spiritual life. That's your accusation. When you give the Gospel, do you not say you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? That doesn't mean the one you are addressing, if they believe, has given themselves spiriutal life. It means God gave them spiritual life once they believed.

I have never heard any Christian preaching the Gospel, say that Jesus does not save, or that all enter Heaven on the basis of what they do and not Christ.

Well, if at age 13, they believed on Jesus Christ at a Bible Camp, then they are saved. Born-again. All due to the work of God and Christ on their behalf.

It is the method that God has chosen. The preaching of the Gospel. (Rom. 10:13-14) "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

(Rom. 10:10) "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

One must believe first. He is not born-again first and then believes. "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. 10:13)

Lees

 

[Lamb]

How can He bring him to life if he is dead and can't hear?

I'm really surprised you're asking how God can being someone to life who is dead and can't hear. THIS is exactly why you trust in your decision instead of the almighty Lord to save you.

 

[Josiah]

How can He bring him to life if he is dead and can't hear

With God, nothing is impossible. But yes, GOD needs to do it. Which is why we need the Savor, One who actually saves.



.

 

[Lamb]

With God, nothing is impossible. But yes, GOD needs to do it. Which is why we need the Savor, One who actually saves.



.

EXACTLY!

What can come to life except that God brings life first?

 

[Lees]

I'm really surprised you're asking how God can being someone to life who is dead and can't hear. THIS is exactly why you trust in your decision instead of the almighty Lord to save you.

It's your analogy, not mine. Your the one insisting the man is dead and can do nothing.

But, (Rom. 10:10) says "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" Until he believes, he is not born-again.

(Rom 10:14) "how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?" Until he believes, he is not born-again.

Lees

 

[Lees]

With God, nothing is impossible. But yes, GOD needs to do it. Which is why we need the Savor, One who actually saves.



.

Well, I am saying God does it. God has chosen the method by which men are saved. Preaching the Gospel, hearing the Gospel, believing the Gospel, resulting in salvation.

God doesn't save them first and then presents them with the Gospel.

No one is born-again until they believe on Jesus Christ.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

EXACTLY!

What can come to life except that God brings life first?

And of course, of the dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy can save themselves - then all NON-CHRISTIAN religions are right and Christianity is wrong.

Our friend insists he does not accept that we are saved by OUR work... but then insists that we are saved because of OUR work. No. That's the message of all OTHER religions - that God makes salvation POSSIBLE and AVAILABLE but we acheive it by OUR work. Christianity affirms that it is God's doing, God's gift, God's blessing. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, all are GOD'S doing, GOD's work, GOD's blessing, GOD'S gift. Soli Deo Gloria.


[quote-Lees]Well, I am saying God does it.[/quote]


Then we don't. Not by our doing.... anything.


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[Lees]

And of course, of the dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy can save themselves - then all NON-CHRISTIAN religions are right and Christianity is wrong.

Our friend insists he does not accept that we are saved by OUR work... but then insists that we are saved because of OUR work. No. That's the message of all OTHER religions - that God makes salvation POSSIBLE and AVAILABLE but we acheive it by OUR work. Christianity affirms that it is God's doing, God's gift, God's blessing. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, all are GOD'S doing, GOD's work, GOD's blessing, GOD'S gift. Soli Deo Gloria.

Strange conclusion. We preach the Gospel to all. It is God who saves. But He does so through the way He has prescribed as I gave in (Rom. 10)

I never called 'believing' a work. You misrepresent me.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

Strange conclusion. We preach the Gospel to all. It is God who saves. But He does so through the way He has prescribed as I gave in (Rom. 10)

... but HE DOES IT. All of it. Just as Lamb and I have said and you have so disagreed with.

Yes, again, as said before but challenged, God typically uses MEANS but it's still 100% HIS work, not OUR anything. It's not our decision, it's His gift.

I never called 'believing' a work.

When you stress it's what the unsaved person DOES that thus makes that person saved, then it's not only a work but the work of that person - and the very thing that means he is saved.




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[Lamb]

Ephesians 2:5
that while we were spiritually dead in our disobedience he brought us to life with Christ. It is by God's grace that you have been saved.

 

[Lees]

... but HE DOES IT. All of it. Just as Lamb and I have said and you have so disagreed with.

Yes, again, as said before but challenged, God typically uses MEANS but it's still 100% HIS work, not OUR anything. It's not our decision, it's His gift.





When you stress it's what the unsaved person DOES that thus makes that person saved, then it's not only a work but the work of that person - and the very thing that means he is saved.




.

I have never said God doesn't do it. Redeemption is all of God.

But, you are not born again out of the blue. One day you are an atheist or a non-believer, and then poof, to your amazement, your born again? How silly.

Redeemption is a process. It is all of God, but it is a process. A work of God that involves the person.

Again, I have never called believing a work. I am not 'stressing' that which the believer does. I am saying God's method of bringing salvation involves the believer, and other believers.

God has provided Christians to preach the Gospel. Because if others don't hear the Gospel, they won't be saved. They won't be born again. So....is that a 'works' salvation? Just because Christians 'work' in order to preach the Gospel, is that a works salvation?

Of course not. But it is part of the process that God has laid out. It is all His work, but we are involved.

God doesn't 'born you again' and then brings you the Gospel. He brings you the Gospel, and then 'borns you again' when you believe.

I am not stressing man's side. You are stressing God's side to the removal of mans part.

What is missing on your and others part, and this is important, is the person as an 'elect of God'. I recognize the 'elect of God'. And because they are elect, they will be saved. In other words, God will get the message of the Gospel to them through many different ways. And because they are elect, they will have in them the ability for that message to resonate. Not because they are yet saved or born-again. Only because they are elect.

And the elect don't always come at the first call. But it resonates. And eventually one day, they do. All the work of God. Through the process that He has so ordered. Again, (Rom. 10).

Lees

 

[Lamb]

I have never said God doesn't do it. Redeemption is all of God.

But, you are not born again out of the blue. One day you are an atheist or a non-believer, and then poof, to your amazement, your born again? How silly.

Redeemption is a process. It is all of God, but it is a process. A work of God that involves the person.

Again, I have never called believing a work. I am not 'stressing' that which the believer does. I am saying God's method of bringing salvation involves the believer, and other believers.

God has provided Christians to preach the Gospel. Because if others don't hear the Gospel, they won't be saved. They won't be born again. So....is that a 'works' salvation? Just because Christians 'work' in order to preach the Gospel, is that a works salvation?

Of course not. But it is part of the process that God has laid out. It is all His work, but we are involved.

God doesn't 'born you again' and then brings you the Gospel. He brings you the Gospel, and then 'borns you again' when you believe.

I am not stressing man's side. You are stressing God's side to the removal of mans part.

What is missing on your and others part, and this is important, is the person as an 'elect of God'. I recognize the 'elect of God'. And because they are elect, they will be saved. In other words, God will get the message of the Gospel to them through many different ways. And because they are elect, they will have in them the ability for that message to resonate. Not because they are yet saved or born-again. Only because they are elect.

And the elect don't always come at the first call. But it resonates. And eventually one day, they do. All the work of God. Through the process that He has so ordered. Again, (Rom. 10).

Lees

It's obvious you aren't really reading what Josiah and I have been saying.

You stated, "But, you are not born again out of the blue. One day you are an atheist or a non-believer, and then poof, to your amazement, your born again? How silly."

That in itself shows you haven't read what we have written in this thread. Not at all.

 

[Lees]

It's obvious you aren't really reading what Josiah and I have been saying.

You stated, "But, you are not born again out of the blue. One day you are an atheist or a non-believer, and then poof, to your amazement, your born again? How silly."

That in itself shows you haven't read what we have written in this thread. Not at all.

By what you have written, I have specifically stated that you sound as if you believe a man is born-again first, and then believes. And I have asked you if that was correct. And you do not respond.

That is a common belief among calvinists. To which I disagree for reasons given.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

By what you have written, I have specifically stated that you sound as if you believe a man is born-again first, and then believes. And I have asked you if that was correct. And you do not respond.

That is a common belief among calvinists. To which I disagree for reasons given.

Lees

You inserted NOTHING about God in your statement about what you think we believe. So go back, rewrite it according to what Josiah and I have written (repeatedly).