Catholic Eucharistic Miracles

[Faith]

Poverty does not make a nation and its people unreliable witnesses to the graces of God including miracles. Jesus was poor, so too were the twelve apostles he chose. And Jesus' life and work wasn't peer reviewed, so maybe expecting peer reviews is a red herring dragged across the path of faith to dissuade people from walking in the faith.

Did you read the link to the article in post #16? What did you think about that? Among other things, the people involved had questionable credentials.
Do you believe all EM are genuine?

 

[NathanH83]

I just received a Catholic magazine in the mail today that talks about the Eucharist and to some degree, Eucharistic Miracles. As a LCMS convert I must admit that the miracles make me question my choice in converting. The article mentions the miracles of Sokolka, Poland; Lanciano, Italy; as well as others. There are probably hundreds of them with many changing to human blood and or human heart tissue.
If Lutheranism is right then what are these miracles?

“Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”
-John 14:12

Bible Gateway passage: John 14:12 - New International Version

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus said that those who believe in Him will do the works Jesus did.

I believe miracles are for today.

Jesus turned water into wine, and he multiplied the loaves and the fishes. But when did Jesus ever turn bread into heart tissue? And how would that even benefit anyone?

I’ve listened to David Hogan, a missionary in Mexico. He’s seen lots of miracles. Dead raisings, healings, blind eyes opened, leprosy cured.

I believe those miracles are happening today. But those miracles are actually for the benefit of people, and the furtherance of the gospel.

But how does turning bread into heart tissue benefit anyone? When did Jesus ever do that? When did the disciples ever do that?

Sorry, even though I believe miracles are real, I think these Catholic Eucharist “miracles” are a bunch of superstitious nonsense that has nothing to do with the gospel. It’s a bunch of Roman Catholic hocus pocus, and isn’t ever found in the New Testament.

 

[Albion]

So, is it safe to say that you think these “miracles” are fake? Could the RCC be in on it?

"Fake"...as if deliberately staged in order to deceive the people? I doubt it.

In the main, more of them appear to be like "urban myths," i. e. stories that got around and are altered as they are retold. But some have the benefit of church authorities being more than willing to have church members be misled.

For example--and this isn't one of the so-called miracles you were talking about--but lately there have been alleged appearances of the Virgin Mary in store windows and on cement structures. Catholic priests have admitted that they're just illusions BUT that they aren't going to press the issue with the faithful who come again and again to gaze upon the images and believe it's the Virgin. Why not? It's because the experience makes those people more religious, more devout, believing what they've seen. So the idea with those priests is "what's to be gained" by disappointing them??

 

[Castle Church]

I think that often God works where he is called, where the faithful will be enabled. Are some of the "miracles" fake, sure. Are some simply urban legends that have been durable? Yes.

However, while the RCC tends to exhibit eucharistic miracles the Pentecostal churches tend to see them when laying on hands. The Charismatic and faith speaking see them when calling out in prayer/faith. Many Reformed individuals are cessationist, but they still believe in praying for miracles and that God performs them, but their prayers are usually only what you may "see" or hear about.

The reality is that most churches don't put much of an emphasis on showing or believing in miracles (and no other church puts the emphasis on EM), but they still believe and they still happen in their churches, they just do not have a central authority to promote them or their belief system does not prioritize them. The RCC has both a system and a reason to make it seem like EM have happened and are happening - it lends credence to their proposition that they are the only holders of the authority, that their eucharist is the only "real" one.

Do a search on pretty much any denomination and you can find people claiming miracles in their churches as well, they just are probably not Eucharistic Miracles.

 

[Albion]

I think that often God works where he is called, where the faithful will be enabled. Are some of the "miracles" fake, sure. Are some simply urban legends that have been durable? Yes.

However, while the RCC tends to exhibit eucharistic miracles the Pentecostal churches tend to see them when laying on hands. The Charismatic and faith speaking see them when calling out in prayer/faith. Many Reformed individuals are cessationist, but they still believe in praying for miracles and that God performs them, but their prayers are usually only what you may "see" or hear about.

I appreciate the point, but the miracles you are referring to seem to me to be the kind that attribute good outcomes to the intervention of God. For example, if a believer prays for a good job and he gets it even though he wasn't well qualified, he says it was a miracle. Well, there's no way of assessing whether or not it actually was.

In the case of the eucharistic miracles Hope was speaking about, those are scientifically impossible developments but occur nevertheless. And these are presumed to be done by God in order to send some message, not just to help a believer in need. In churches where praying for miracles happens during every worship service and the people expect them, any subsequent good luck is seen as God having worked a "miracle," sometimes with the twist that his hand was supposed to have been forced because of the petitioner's prayer.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did you read the link to the article in post #16? What did you think about that? Among other things, the people involved had questionable credentials.
Do you believe all EM are genuine?

I do not know if any miracle claims are true even if they may be genuine in the sense of being claimed in honesty, but I do know that one can take a cynical perspective and dismiss them all for one's own purposes.

When reading the scriptures many miracles occur in Moses' time, in Elijah's time, and in Jesus Christ's time and as a matter of faith I receive these claimed miracles as true even though I cannot prove any of them to be true and even though a cynic can raise objections against them. Similarly with claims about the miracles of the saints and of the holy Eucharist. they can be accepted as an act of faith or not, they can also be rejected wholesale as part of the theological stance. The latter appears to be the case with Protestant rejection of miracles claimed by many Catholics.

 

[Faith]

“Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”
-John 14:12

Bible Gateway passage: John 14:12 - New International Version

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus said that those who believe in Him will do the works Jesus did.

I believe miracles are for today.

Jesus turned water into wine, and he multiplied the loaves and the fishes. But when did Jesus ever turn bread into heart tissue? And how would that even benefit anyone?

I’ve listened to David Hogan, a missionary in Mexico. He’s seen lots of miracles. Dead raisings, healings, blind eyes opened, leprosy cured.

I believe those miracles are happening today. But those miracles are actually for the benefit of people, and the furtherance of the gospel.

But how does turning bread into heart tissue benefit anyone? When did Jesus ever do that? When did the disciples ever do that?

Sorry, even though I believe miracles are real, I think these Catholic Eucharist “miracles” are a bunch of superstitious nonsense that has nothing to do with the gospel. It’s a bunch of Roman Catholic hocus pocus, and isn’t ever found in the New Testament.

Why would God do that? To make believers out of the doubting.

 

[NathanH83]

Why would God do that? To make believers out of the doubting.

When Jesus turned water into wine, it wasn’t JUST a sign to make people believe. It actually benefited the wedding party who ran out of wine.

When Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes, it wasn’t just a sign to make people believe. It actually benefited people who hadn’t eaten for 3 days and would have fainted along the way to town without it. It actually benefited them.


How does turning bread into heart tissue actually benefit anyone?

Give me a break. This is nothing like the miracles in the New Testament. It’s nothing but Roman Catholic superstition and hocus pocus. That is NOT the gospel.

I’ve even heard of Jesus giving people gold teeth. That actually benefits them if they were missing teeth.

 

[Faith]

When Jesus turned water into wine, it wasn’t JUST a sign to make people believe. It actually benefited the wedding party who ran out of wine.

When Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes, it wasn’t just a sign to make people believe. It actually benefited people who hadn’t eaten for 3 days and would have fainted along the way to town without it. It actually benefited them.


How does turning bread into heart tissue actually benefit anyone?

Give me a break. This is nothing like the miracles in the New Testament. It’s nothing but Roman Catholic superstition and hocus pocus. That is NOT the gospel.

I’ve even heard of Jesus giving people gold teeth. That actually benefits them if they were missing teeth.

? that’s a new one on me.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How does turning bread into heart tissue actually benefit anyone?

Give me a break. This is nothing like the miracles in the New Testament. It’s nothing but Roman Catholic superstition and hocus pocus. That is NOT the gospel.

One may well ask "how does an axe head floating on water benefit anyone?" or "how does walking on water benefit anyone?". Scripture advises "stop doubting and become believing".

 

[NathanH83]

One may well ask "how does an axe head floating on water benefit anyone?" or "how does walking on water benefit anyone?". Scripture advises "stop doubting and become believing".

He borrow the axe and needed to pay it back.
Why did Jesus walk on water?
The same reason the chicken crossed the road. To get to the other side.

 

[Lees]

Most Christians today doubt any miracles in any church. And probably doubt most miracles in any believers life, except their own.

Churches who allow the gifts of the Spirit to be exercised, would acknowledge the gift of miracles. (1 Cor. 12:10) But most churches doubt that.

I dare say each here knows of several miracles from God in their lives. I mean an outright miracle that if God didn't do it, it wouldn't have happened. But when you describe it to others, they usually seek another explanation.

Perhaps there is a healthy scepticism. For we don't want to be swayed just because of a miracle. For, satan is quite capeable of doing 'miracles' himself. See (Ex. 7:8-13) (7:20-24) (8:5-7) And will not the anti-christ do miracles? ( 2 Thess 2:8-9)

But who can argue that when God works miraculously on our behalf, the Christians behalf, that our faith is not strengthened?

Surely most here recognize that there are Christians in the Roman Catholic Church. And God meets them as He does others in other denominations. But, whether a miracle occurred there would be no factor to me in deciding to be Roman Catholic or not.

Lees

 

[Castle Church]

I appreciate the point, but the miracles you are referring to seem to me to be the kind that attribute good outcomes to the intervention of God. For example, if a believer prays for a good job and he gets it even though he wasn't well qualified, he says it was a miracle. Well, there's no way of assessing whether or not it actually was.

In the case of the eucharistic miracles Hope was speaking about, those are scientifically impossible developments but occur nevertheless. And these are presumed to be done by God in order to send some message, not just to help a believer in need. In churches where praying for miracles happens during every worship service and the people expect them, any subsequent good luck is seen as God having worked a "miracle," sometimes with the twist that his hand was supposed to have been forced because of the petitioner's prayer.

No, that is not the kind I am really referring to. I agree, those kinds of "miracles" are waaaayyy too common among many believers. God "miraculously" gives them a good parking spot, etc. I am more talking about miraculous instant healings or deliverance from afflictions, etc.

TBH I am skeptical of almost any declared miracle that does not have a reason on why God would perform such a feat, no matter the denomination. I think that many just did not happen or are blown out of proportion urban legends. I honestly just don't believe many of the EM declarations, people subsisting on just one eucharistic host a day, etc. There just is not enough unbiased evidence to support that kind of "miracle" and there is little to be gained spiritually for belief in them IMO.

 

[Albion]

No, that is not the kind I am really referring to. I agree, those kinds of "miracles" are waaaayyy too common among many believers. God "miraculously" gives them a good parking spot, etc. I am more talking about miraculous instant healings or deliverance from afflictions, etc.

I'm not aware of any of those, so to me they're just claims.

I have, however, been told of such things or seen and heard people who have insisted that they were instantly healed, etc.

I don't count those as miracles of the sort we've been discussing...and certainly not because of any "gifts" possessed by the persons who've said it happened to them or to people close to them. If those healings did happen to be genuine, the power of prayer would be the reason for such deliverances.

 

[Josiah]

In post #16, Albion quoted these points:

"I'll outline a few points that I have found thus far:

• These miracles consistently occur in countries where the population is super-majority Catholic (Poland, Mexico, Argentina etc).
• There are no peer review papers or journals available to the general public.
• These scientists/doctors are either self identified Catholics, or of an unknown faith/disposition.
• All of these 'miracles' , appear to occur after transubstantiation was invented in the 11th century (the one exception I've found is the miracle of Lanciono, which is claimed to have occurred in the 7th or 8th century, however there is no historical mention of it until its "rediscovery" in the 16th century).
• Modern miracles seem to follow almost the exact same formula or story, wherein a host is dropped on the ground, placed in holy water to dissolve, only for it later be discovered that the host has turned red, after which it is sent off for testing and determined to either be mold or, in some cases, allegedly flesh.
• The Vatican has made no public/widespread announcements about any of these outside of the local level, but is perfectly happy selling books and tours in various places."

Some observations:

1. It's difficult to comment on miracles... whose very nature is supernatural. And to review personal experience.

2. For many reasons, including those Albion noted, I find the "Roman Catholic Eucharistic miracles" to be beyond the credible. Why would these only occur in Roman Catholic Churches, and even then only in countries overwhelmingly Catholic? And why only after Catholic Scholasticism invented the theory of Transubstantiation in the 11th Century? And of course, there's been no review outside the Catholic Church.




.

 

[Faith]

In post #16, Albion quoted these points:

"I'll outline a few points that I have found thus far:

• These miracles consistently occur in countries where the population is super-majority Catholic (Poland, Mexico, Argentina etc).
• There are no peer review papers or journals available to the general public.
• These scientists/doctors are either self identified Catholics, or of an unknown faith/disposition.
• All of these 'miracles' , appear to occur after transubstantiation was invented in the 11th century (the one exception I've found is the miracle of Lanciono, which is claimed to have occurred in the 7th or 8th century, however there is no historical mention of it until its "rediscovery" in the 16th century).
• Modern miracles seem to follow almost the exact same formula or story, wherein a host is dropped on the ground, placed in holy water to dissolve, only for it later be discovered that the host has turned red, after which it is sent off for testing and determined to either be mold or, in some cases, allegedly flesh.
• The Vatican has made no public/widespread announcements about any of these outside of the local level, but is perfectly happy selling books and tours in various places."

Some observations:

1. It's difficult to comment on miracles... whose very nature is supernatural. And to review personal experience.

2. For many reasons, including those Albion noted, I find the "Roman Catholic Eucharistic miracles" to be beyond the credible. Why would these only occur in Roman Catholic Churches, and even then only in countries overwhelmingly Catholic? And why only after Catholic Scholasticism invented the theory of Transubstantiation in the 11th Century? And of course, there's been no review outside the Catholic Church.




.

I don’t know if the Vatican has made any announcements but I do know that my Catholic Church and another one nearby did have a presentation of these miracles. Some seemed hard to believe, others I wasn’t sure about.
The church I used to go to also had a splinter of the “real Cross” Jesus was crucified on. Who knows?

 

[Albion]

The church I used to go to also had a splinter of the “real Cross” Jesus was crucified on. Who knows?

We do know that the millions of "pieces of the true cross" that have been sold or given away in many countries over the course of centuries would construct hundreds of crosses if it were possible to reassemble them all.

 

[Faith]

We do know that the millions of "pieces of the true cross" that have been sold or given away in many countries over the course of centuries would construct hundreds of crosses if it were possible to reassemble them all.

Yeah,I told my hubby about seeing it and he asked how I know it’s really Jesus’ cross. I didn’t have an answer except that my church said it was.
It was just a splinter.

 

[Faith]

What are everyone’s thoughts about the Catholic practice of Adoration to the Eucharist?

 

[Castle Church]

What are everyone’s thoughts about the Catholic practice of Adoration to the Eucharist?

From a Catholic perspective I admire it and liked to participate when I was Catholic. From a Protestant perspective it is not something that should be done. I think that once one understands fully the idea that God hears us when we pray, as if we are right with him, it does not matter if we are praying "in the real presence" or not - we are always in his presence when we come in prayer. From a worldly perspective being in front of the physical eucharist is comforting, but not necessary.

I think much of the mystique that people experience when praying in Adoration could be accomplished in a personal set aside sacred space. We are often searching the sacred when we attend Adoration, and we can seek that in other ways.