Catholic Eucharistic Miracles

[Castle Church]

I just keep wonderI got if Catholicism is true or Lutheranism is true. Depends on whom I talk to or post with.

Sure, talking with people that are versed in both faith traditions is helpful, but they also are trying to "prove" their side, of course.

For me, the main issue is how the faith is lived, and the theology behind that life. My issues with the faith lived in the RCC has different facets, but one main one is the idolatry. I fully know the whole argument on veneration and different levels - but come on, in the real faith life lived by some Catholics the veneration goes way too far, we can see it in real life and in pictures of different places. I could post those pictures, but we all already are familiar with them. If the church came out against that then that would be one thing, but they do not, it is encouraged or at best ignored. You don't see that level of "veneration" in the Lutheran church, and if you did it would be soundly rejected.

As for the theology, when it is looked at in light of history and the other churches - both Protestant and Orthodox - many distinctive RC beliefs just don't hold up to me.

All that said, I don't think that one is necessarily more "true" than the other. If you find Christ in the RCC, then go there. If you find Him in the Lutheran church, go there. The RCC would disagree with that of course as they are the "One True Church", but I outright disagree with that statement.

But you should continue your research on the basic theology and history, the why. Why do Catholics believe what they do about the Eucharist in comparison to Lutherans? Why do Catholics believe what they do in regards to confession compared to Lutherans? What do the historians say about the real history of the Papacy? Why have the Orthodox always rejected the RCC claims for the papacy? Why did Luther and Calvin reject the claims? Who were the popes really? Were they generally good people or has the office been plagued with corruptness and intrigue?

 

[Faith]

Missing what? Christ said, This is my body. Didn't He? And don't you receive that in the Lutheran Church congregations? He also said, This is my blood. Don't you receive that as well?

Lutherans believe in the Real Presence. You aren't missing anything when receiving the Lord's Supper. He died for you, He gives you His body and Blood, you are forgiven because of Him. You are missing nothing when you're in Christ.

No, I don’t think I’m missing anything during Communion,I feel like His presence in the Eucharist is missing when I go into the chapel to pray vs going to Adoration.

 

[Faith]

My husband said that by going what I’ve discussed with him, he thinks that I’d be happiest in the Lutheran church. And yes, I realize it’s a decision I must make for myself.

 

[Lamb]

No, I don’t think I’m missing anything during Communion,I feel like His presence in the Eucharist is missing when I go into the chapel to pray vs going to Adoration.

Lutherans believe that the Lord is present for a purpose...for us to receive His body and blood. Once that purpose has been achieved, He's no longer present in the elements.

 

[Faith]

Lutherans believe that the Lord is present for a purpose...for us to receive His body and blood. Once that purpose has been achieved, He's no longer present in the elements.

I know….and I’m not sure I get that. How can His presence no longer be there after the Lords Supper?
I guess I think that that’s what‘s missing by praying in the chapel. His presence in the Eucharist during Adoration vs praying in the chapel.

 

[Albion]

I guess both of those things. You must remember that I came from Catholicism, having been raised in that faith, so everything I’ve learned up until recently (with the exception of learning about Christianity and even, for a time, New Age) has been from a Catholic POV. I guess mostly I feel the Eucharist is missing.

I don't follow the idea that prayer, in order to be meaningful, has to be joined to the Eucharist...and of course also, adoration of the reserved host isn't participating in the Eucharist.

Still, I can appreciate how a "prayer chapel" actually is often just some tiny, leftover space with hardly any of the trappings of a church, and that this sterility can work against the spirit of the person praying there.

 

[Faith]

Sure, talking with people that are versed in both faith traditions is helpful, but they also are trying to "prove" their side, of course.

For me, the main issue is how the faith is lived, and the theology behind that life. My issues with the faith lived in the RCC has different facets, but one main one is the idolatry. I fully know the whole argument on veneration and different levels - but come on, in the real faith life lived by some Catholics the veneration goes way too far, we can see it in real life and in pictures of different places. I could post those pictures, but we all already are familiar with them. If the church came out against that then that would be one thing, but they do not, it is encouraged or at best ignored. You don't see that level of "veneration" in the Lutheran church, and if you did it would be soundly rejected.

As for the theology, when it is looked at in light of history and the other churches - both Protestant and Orthodox - many distinctive RC beliefs just don't hold up to me.

All that said, I don't think that one is necessarily more "true" than the other. If you find Christ in the RCC, then go there. If you find Him in the Lutheran church, go there. The RCC would disagree with that of course as they are the "One True Church", but I outright disagree with that statement.

But you should continue your research on the basic theology and history, the why. Why do Catholics believe what they do about the Eucharist in comparison to Lutherans? Why do Catholics believe what they do in regards to confession compared to Lutherans? What do the historians say about the real history of the Papacy? Why have the Orthodox always rejected the RCC claims for the papacy? Why did Luther and Calvin reject the claims? Who were the popes really? Were they generally good t

I understand, but what I don't follow is the idea that prayer has to be joined tof the Eucharist...and of course also, adoration of the reserved host isn't the Eucharist.

The CC believe the reserved Host is the Eucharist. Can you link me to something that would explain WHY it’s no longer Jesus Body?

 

[Albion]

The CC believe the reserved Host is the Eucharist.

No, the church doesn't believe that. The "Eucharist" is the service with distribution of the elements. The elements themselves, separated from the consecration, do not constitute the Eucharist.

Can you link me to something that would explain WHY it’s no longer Jesus Body?

My personal "take" on the matter aside, I don't think I said that it isn't any longer Christ's body. But I feel that we're drifting in this discussion now. It was about prayer but now it seems to have become the meaning of the sacrament of the Altar.

 

[Faith]

No, the church doesn't believe that. The "Eucharist" is the service with distribution of the elements. The elements themselves, separated from the consecration, do not constitute the Eucharist.



My personal "take" on the matter aside, I don't think I said that it isn't any longer Christ's body. But I feel that we're drifting in this discussion now. It was about prayer but now it seems to have become the meaning of the sacrament of the Altar.

My OP was about Eucharistic Miracles. I don’t mind that we’ve drifted from that. I have so many questions. I talked to my Pastor recently and someone in another forum suggested I speak to both the Lutheran Pastor and RCC priest. I’ve already spoken to the priest a few months ago. Talking to them doesn’t really help because they bring their own bias into the conversation….although my pastor is less likely to do so since he was brought up in a Catholic/Lutheran family and sometimes attended at Catholic Church as a kid.

 

[Castle Church]

The CC believe the reserved Host is the Eucharist. Can you link me to something that would explain WHY it’s no longer Jesus Body?

I'm not sure I can be of much help in this case as my current beliefs are outside of the Lutheran and RCC beliefs and align with a Calvinist view of the Lord's Supper/Eucharist. I'll keep those views out of the conversation as I think it will muddy it too much and take the thread into a discussion on the Real Presence.

 

[Faith]

I'm not sure I can be of much help in this case as my current beliefs are outside of the Lutheran and RCC beliefs and align with a Calvinist view of the Lord's Supper/Eucharist. I'll keep those views out of the conversation as I think it will muddy it too much and take the thread into a discussion on the Real Presence.

Ok

 

[Albion]

I know….and I’m not sure I get that. How can His presence no longer be there after the Lords Supper?

The whole idea is miraculous--God becoming physically present in bread and wine (or replacing it) on thousands of altars all around the globe, often at once.

That being the case, it isn't much of a leap to think that he makes himself present as he wills and only under those circumstances, the entire thing being a miracle. The nature of any miracle is not that the event is confined to the ordinary laws of nature (such as the conviction that once the bread and wine are changed in this way, the change must remain forever and under any circumstances that might develop over time).

I guess I think that that’s what‘s missing by praying in the chapel. His presence in the Eucharist during Adoration vs praying in the chapel.

Well, that's true. But the question is "why would this fact make the prayer and the petition any less valid or effective?"

 

[Faith]

The whole idea is miraculous--God becoming physically present in bread and wine (or replacing it) on thousands of altars all around the globe, often at once.

That being the case, it isn't much of a leap to think that he makes himself present as he wills and only under those circumstances, the entire thing being a miracle. The nature of any miracle is not that the event is confined to the ordinary laws of nature (such as the conviction that once the bread and wine are changed in this way, the change must remain forever and under any circumstances thereafter).


Well, that's true. But the question is "why would this fact make the prayer and the petition any less valid or effective?"

When you ask it that way I guess it doesn’t. It’s not really the lack of the Eucharist being on the altar, it’s my feelings toward it, based on what I’ve been taught.

 

[Josiah]

@Hope1960

Friend, IMO, you may be very much over-simplifying BOTH the Catholic and Lutheran positions here.... and trying to pin down what in both "camps" is largely mystery. What we both share is that the Eucharist blesses AS IT IS RECEIVED, not simply because it exists.

As a former Catholic, I am well aware that there are certain pieties present in Catholicism - most NOT as dogma but simply as the spirituality of that community. Most of these are not forbidden in Lutheranism but may be uncommon. As for the Adoration of the elements, they aren't doing anything for anyone... they are sitting there waiting to be a blessing at the next Mass. If casting your eyes on such - or a painting of Jesus or an Orthodox Icon or a Crucifix or a Statue of Mary or whatever - is enriching to your spiritual life, well.... I don't think there's any sin involved.




.

 

[Albion]

When you ask it that way I guess it doesn’t. It’s not really the lack of the Eucharist being on the altar, it’s my feelings toward it, based on what I’ve been taught.

Yes, I know. And that's understandable.

It kind of sounds as though Catholic would be your more natural choice of churches. I'm wondering, therefore, what the appeal for you is of Lutheran belief and practice as distinguished from the Catholic alternative (?)

That may be a question that's too personal, yet I can't help but wonder.

 

[Castle Church]

@Hope1960

Friend, IMO, you may be very much over-simplifying BOTH the Catholic and Lutheran positions here.... and trying to pin down what in both "camps" is largely mystery. What we both share is that the Eucharist blesses AS IT IS RECEIVED, not simply because it exists.

As a former Catholic, I am well aware that there are certain pieties present in Catholicism - most NOT as dogma but simply as the spirituality of that community. Most of these are not forbidden in Lutheranism but may be uncommon. As for the Adoration of the elements, they aren't doing anything for anyone... they are sitting there waiting to be a blessing at the next Mass. If casting your eyes on such - or a painting of Jesus or an Orthodox Icon or a Crucifix or a Statue of Mary or whatever - is enriching to your spiritual life, well.... I don't think there's any sin involved.




.

The difference though, as I understand it (and definitely correct me if I am wrong) is that Adoration is actually worship, as opposed to inspiration or veneration. If it is not actually/still the body of Jesus then it is fully idolatry of the item as it is true worship. This is in contrast to a item that focuses or enhances our worship, like a crucifix or icon may. Those items are not actually being worshiped.

 

[Faith]

Yes, I know. And that's understandable.

It kind of sounds as though Catholic would be your more natural choice of churches. I'm wondering, therefore, what the appeal for you is of Lutheran belief and practice as distinguished from the Catholic alternative (?)

That may be a question that's too personal, yet I can't help but wonder.

It boils down to three things, really. None being good reasons. I chose the Lutheran church because it’s nearby; I was bored at Mass; and the Lutheran church has fabulous music. It’s a very contemporary church with a contemporary praise band.

 

[Lamb]

It boils down to three things, really. None being good reasons. I chose the Lutheran church because it’s nearby; I was bored at Mass; and the Lutheran church has fabulous music. It’s a very contemporary church with a contemporary praise band.

But how is their particular theology? Not all Lutheran churches are created equal and not all follow the Confessions.

 

[Faith]

But how is their particular theology? Not all Lutheran churches are created equal and not all follow the Confessions.

I don’t know enough about Lutheranism to say but I do know they believe the universe is 6,000 to 10,000 years old and I don’t. Then again, Saturn turns out to be much younger than originally thought so, according to some websites (Christian ones) it could be as young as the Bible says.

 

[Albion]

I don’t know enough about Lutheranism to say but I do know they believe the universe is 6,000 to 10,000 years old and I don’t. Then again, Saturn turns out to be much younger than originally thought so, according to some websites (Christian ones) it could be as young as the Bible says.

Hi. I was so unprepared for that answer that I had to think on it for awhile before deciding on my reaction!

I'm thinking you might benefit from and also be more at ease with some of the issues we've been discussing if you were to have it as a goal to become knowledgeable concerning the Lutheran doctrines, especially because you already are equipped with the Catholic ones.

Doctrine is more important to Lutherans than is the case with some other Christian groups, and yet there are also serious disagreements between the various Lutheran branches--ELCA, LCMS, WELS, and so on. On the matter of age of the Earth, for example.