Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[DanielL]

This has nothing to do with Muslims.

This is your answer? And I lost the debate? -Divert, distract, ignore Scripture and change the subject. Typical tactics of the enemy..

-Ignoring them won't make them go away:

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

There is no denying Scripture, that is why you won't dare. It is fine, just repent, cease from eating the body of death, from lusting after flesh, from murder and from shedding innocent blood. If we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

 

[DanielL]

Noah

Noah is righteous, which means He didn't kill animals, nor shed innocent blood, nor worked against the Will of God..

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

The Lord smelled these sacrifices, and it pleased him.

This is impossible, the LORD cannot be pleased by that which He hates..

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

-The LORD desires mercy, NOT sacrifice.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

-Now, choose whom will ye serve. The LORD that desires mercy, and NOT sacrifice, or the bloodthirsty who was pleased by bloodshed. You can't serve two masters.

I give you everything on earth

This is also impossible for a Perfect God, because He cannot change, nor His Word, nor His Law.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Psalm 119:89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

Mathew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Baruch 4:1 This is the book of the commandments of God, and the law that endureth for ever: all they that keep it shall come to life; but such as leave it shall die.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Psalm 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

-Now, Choose whom will ye serve. The Perfect LORD or the imperfect idol that change his mind multiple times. You can't serve both, tho.

 

[Albion]

This is your answer?

Yes

And I lost the debate?

Yes

 

[DanielL]

Yes

Isaiah 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

-You stopped making sense. That is where your imperfect idol leads you. To absurdity. You have rejected Divine Wisdom, because you can't forsake your lust for flesh, you must really love the body of death..

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

 

[Bluezone777]

It's right in the Bible for all to see. You don't believe the scriptures and don't accept them. You are not a Christian no matter what you think you are. The only thing I provided was scripture and scripture alone which clearly refutes your unbiblical stance. Your profile is not accurate for both your religious affiliation and your answer to the Trinity/Nicene Creed acceptance question. You cannot agree with either of those things while not accepting the scriptures. You also cannot be a follower of Christ while rejecting the Scriptures. If you won't accept the scriptures then there is nothing for anyone on here to discuss with you on anything. You might as well pack your bags and leave as there is nothing for anyone on here to gain from holding discussions with you on any matter regarding the Christian faith.

Here's the links if you need to see it on Biblegateway to see I copied the passages as written there as that is where I sourced those verses from.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 8 - Easy-to-Read Version

The Flood Ends - But God did not forget about Noah. God remembered him and all the animals that were with him in the boat. God made a wind blow over the earth, and all the water began to disappear. Rain stopped falling from the sky, and water stopped flowing from under the earth. The water that...

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 9 - Easy-to-Read Version

The New Beginning - God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Have many children. Fill the earth with your people. Every animal on earth, every bird in the air, every animal that crawls on the ground, and every fish in the sea will be afraid of you. All of them will be under your control...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[DanielL]

The only thing I provided was scripture and scripture alone which clearly refutes your unbiblical stance.

Scripture cannot deny Him of His Perfect Nature, anything that does, is therefore, not Scripture. The Witness of God is Greater. God is Perfect, and that is not an "unbiblical stance". So, you are the one rejecting the Scriptures. These for example:

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Psalm 119:89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

Mathew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Baruch 4:1 This is the book of the commandments of God, and the law that endureth for ever: all they that keep it shall come to life; but such as leave it shall die.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Psalm 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

-All I'm saying is that God is Perfect, therefore Immutable. He didn't change His Mind after the flood regarding food. That is for sure. He didn't change His Word nor His Law, that is impossible for a Perfect God.

 

[tango]

You keep omitting the part about having prayed to God about it, with honesty in your spirit.

Also, this debate is pretty pointless. Your views has been so powerfully influenced by the ways of this world that you seem unable to understand that God communicates with people through more than just a compiled collection of writings of a bunch of people from the past. "Sola Scriptura" is self-defeating because there's no mention of it in the Scripture whose authority you assume to be above anything else.

Those who seek God's Will will find it. Try it out for yourself. Pray with honesty to Him about whether He wants animals to be killed for us to eat their flesh.

You're avoiding the question. As soon as you say my conscience is superior to Scripture you lose any right to say my conscience is wrong unless your opinion is deemed to be superior to my conscience.

I don't need to pray with honesty - Scripture is pretty clear that we are allowed to eat animals.

 

[tango]

The carrot doesn't have the Breath of Life in it, animals do. Carrots don't bleed, animals do. Carrots are food, animals are not.

Killing an ox is like killing a man, both are murder, shedding innocent blood of animals is also an abomination, and those who work against the Will of the Father, by taking away that which He had given, go to hell.

I understand why you would feel the need to twist Scripture and add to the Word, but that is just your own understanding, and it is not written. What is written, however, is that He desires not sacrifice. And there are no exceptions, only those you add unto it.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

This shows whom you serve, because the True Perfect God cannot command sin, nor abominations, nor things that are against His Will.
-That is why He didn't:

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

So you're plucking verses from one book to deny what God said? Good job. You can accuse me of twisting all you want but the facts are plain - people sacrificed animals to God (as commanded by God) and God was apparently pleased with it. Plucking a verse here and a verse there changes nothing.

 

[tango]

Are you honestly listening to yourself? Meat is procured through the intense suffering and death of animals, most of the time the process is accompanied by terrible conditions in factories where the animals are either kept in tiny cages in which they almost suffocate to death or hung upside down from their legs.

And you're talking about how your reasoning that killing animals is not wrong and is justified because "people like meat"?!

As for meat being a healthful eating choice, nutrition science debunked that. Yes, it can have some benefits in small amounts. However, the benefits of the whole food plant-based diet are a lot more numerous and have been proven by thousands of scientific studies.

Not all meat is procured through suffering and death of animals. There's more and more of a push to treat animals more humanely. Partly because it's the right thing to do and partly because the end result is that the meat tastes better.

 

[Albion]

Not all meat is procured through suffering and death of animals. There's more and more of a push to treat animals more humanely. Partly because it's the right thing to do and partly because the end result is that the meat tastes better.

Plus, the proposition is about killing animals, period. While killing certain animals for food comes immediately to mind, the opposition is also against swatting mosquitos, killing a tick in the act of infecting you, killing poisonous snakes or other dangerous animals that are physically attacking you or some other person, and etc.

 

[tango]

I hope I won't burn eternally for letting my cat catch and kill a mouse. You know, I could have intervened or something...

For that matter I hope I won't burn for eternity for setting mouse traps to protect the food in my pantry.

 

[DanielL]

Scripture is pretty clear that we are allowed to eat animals.

You need to understand God is Perfect, which means He didn't change His Mind after the flood, regarding food. Herbs and fruits are still food, and they always will be, nothing can be put to it, nothing can be added unto His Word. You need to forsake your imperfect idol.

And as if the Perfect Nature of God weren't enough, this Scripture is pretty clear too. We are not allowed to eat animals.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Hosea 8:11 Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.
12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the Lord accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

Isaiah 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.
14 And it was revealed in mine ears by the Lord of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord God of hosts.

-And if all that weren't enough, you still have to address the Breath of Life and the Will of God, because it is His Breath you are killing.

what God said

God cannot deny Himself, anything that does, is not from God. It is from your idol, whom you listen to. God said herbs and fruits, and your idol said everything that moves. And you choose your idol over God, because of your lusts, and the hardness of your heart. Which is why He allowed it, in order to be made manifest, who among the children of men, really loves Him, and whose sheep are His, and whose are not.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

people sacrificed animals to God (as commanded by God)

God cannot command that which is against His Will.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

God was apparently pleased with it

God cannot be pleased by that which He hates. Nor by things that are against His will, check the verses above.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

Jeremiah 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these.
5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

-You need to start with God, in order to know anything. God is Perfect. That means He didn't change His Mind after the flood. Anything that says He did, is found to be a liar, because the Witness of God is Greater.

 

[DanielL]

Not all meat is procured through suffering and death of animals.

This is funny, do you hear yourself? How do you eat meat without kiling the animal? How do you procure meat without death?

-You live off of death, and eat the body thereof.

dangerous animals that are physically attacking you

If the animal is a threat to you, you can kill it, or even if it is a threat to others, the example is David killed a lion and a bear that attacked his flock. This is an exception, because none of the animals you eat were ever a threat to you.

setting mouse traps

Behold, In like manner shall you be trapped and snared.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

[Albion]

You need to understand God is Perfect, which means He didn't change His Mind after the flood, regarding food. Herbs and fruits are still food, and they always will be, nothing can be put to it, nothing can be added unto His Word.

God will always seem unchangeable if we ditch the parts of Scripture that don't accord with our own religious notions--which is what you've done, according to what you've posted here.

But if that is what's done, it necessarily means that the Bible is not believed.

Right there you break ranks with all the practicing Christians here, whether Protestant or Catholic.

 

[DanielL]

God will always seem unchangeable

You don't get it? God is Perfect. He doesn't "seem" Perfect. He really is Perfect. Do I really have to explain this?

He really doesn't change.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

-The LORD doesn't change, anything that does is not the LORD. I don't care how many believe in an imperfect idol. I believe in the Perfect LORD. Now, choose whom will ye serve, the Perfect LORD, or the imperfect idol. You can't serve both.

 

[tango]

This is funny, do you hear yourself? How do you eat meat without kiling the animal? How do you procure meat without death?

"Suffering and death". You don't need both to have meat.

-You live off of death, and eat the body thereof.

If the animal is a threat to you, you can kill it, or even if it is a threat to others, the example is David killed a lion and a bear that attacked his flock. This is an exception, because none of the animals you eat were ever a threat to you.

But wait a minute. Doesn't God hate killing animals? You said so yourself, repeatedly, posting the same tired stuff again and again and again. So are we allowed to kill animals or not? Either there are exceptions or there aren't. You seem unable to decide. I wonder why...

Behold, In like manner shall you be trapped and snared.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

So if I kill animals with something other than the sword I guess I'm OK, right? Or does it mean killing animals means I'll be killed in the same way? What about Daniel killing a lion and a bear - will he be killed the same way he killed the animals? If I swat a mosquito, shoot a rabbit with a pellet gun and shoot a deer with a rifle which method of death should I expect? I'm a bit on the large side to be swatted but it would be good to know whether I should be particularly careful around people with bows or pellet guns.

Since I've killed a few mice with traps perhaps I should be extra careful for super-size mouse traps. If I ever see a giant yellow plastic slab with a hunk of something tasty resting suspiciously out of reach I'll look for a spring-loaded bar ready to snap. Thanks for the warning.

 

[tango]

Sad to say it looks like Paul was some kind of bumbling halfwit as well...

1Co 10:25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience' sake;

You'd have thought someone so mightily used by God would have known better than to say something like that. Perhaps God forgot to let him in on the secret. So far the picture being painted of God looks like some kind of bumbling halfwit, so maybe he did just forget to mention it to Paul. You never know...

 

[DanielL]

"Suffering and death". You don't need both to have meat.

Death is not suffering? -Either way you live off of death.

Doesn't God hate killing animals?

Innocent. I've posted it so many times and you still haven't read it right..

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

-The bear and the lion that David killed weren't innocent. They attacked his flock, so it was only righteous judgement for David to kill them. David didn't shed any innocent blood. Shedding innocent blood would be killing the sheep, for some kind of sick pleasure, to satisfy the lust for flesh.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Paul

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

 

[Albion]

If the animal is a threat to you, you can kill it, or even if it is a threat to others, the example is David killed a lion and a bear that attacked his flock. This is an exception, because none of the animals you eat were ever a threat to you.

You were an absolutist about the killing of animals and claimed that God cannot ever change his position on the matter, cannot deny himself, and cannot make exceptions. That's what you sneered at and said amounted to following an "idol" when various posters showed you examples from the Bible of God condoning and even encouraging the killing of animals.

Yet, in retreat, you've adopted the same position for yourself.

 

[tango]

Death is not suffering? -Either way you live off of death.

Who said death had to involve suffering? You know, a quick bolt to the head and it's over in an instant. It can be done right. There's a whole section about it in the Bible. You know, because God apparently forgot what he was doing.

Innocent. I've posted it so many times and you still haven't read it right..

So animals can be guilty? Curious. Maybe I'll put them on trial and only eat the guilty ones. Does that work for you?

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

-The bear and the lion that David killed weren't innocent. They attacked his flock, so it was only righteous judgement for David to kill them. David didn't shed any innocent blood. Shedding innocent blood would be killing the sheep, for some kind of sick pleasure, to satisfy the lust for flesh.

Poor bear and lion. They were only trying to eat and some idiot killed them for it. I'd say when you're a carnivore and need to eat you're innocent if you try and eat something suitable. You know, lions don't eat much broccoli. But then that fits with the growing picture you're painting of God as some bumbling halfwit who forgot to give them suitable teeth for chewing on grass and leaves and broccoli and stuff.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

Still, it looks like we've got two choices here.

Option 1: God got it right and some random dude on the internet is wrong.

Option 2: God is a bumbling halfwit, Paul is a bumbling halfwit, most of the major figures in Scripture got it all wrong and some random dude on the internet is right.

I'm sure you'll disagree with me on this as well, but I think I'm going to go with option (1). You know, when it's written plain as day in Scripture I think I'll go with that rather than what some random person on the internet tells me.