Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[Castle Church]

You deny the Perfect Immutable Nature of God and The Holiness of His Son? Which is worse?

And keep in mind, the Word of God cannot deny His Perfect Immutable Nature, nor the Holiness of His Son. Anything that does, is therefore, not the Word of God, but the word of man.

And the Witness of God is Greater.

Serious question:
Clearly there are many passages and books of scripture that mention eating animals, give instruction for killing them for both eating and sacrifice, and show Jesus eating animals (fish, lamb), etc.

So, being that as it is, which books of the Bible do you desire to remove from it? Leviticus clearly, but what parts of the Gospel, what other books of the Old Testament? Obviously parts of Luke and John. So where does it end, what parts are God-breathed and which parts are not? How do you make that distinction?

 

[DanielL]

the words of Holy Writ which authorize the killing of animals.

The Holy Spirit cannot "authorize" sin, nor abomination, nor anything against the Will of the Father..

 

[DanielL]

what parts are God-breathed and which parts are not? How do you make that distinction?

The verses that deny Him in any way, are stone. Because Scripture cannot deny Him. The verses that say God changed His Mind, for example, are stone. The verses that say He changed His Law too. The verses that say He allowed for murder and abomination, are stone. The verses that say He commanded that which is against His Will are stone. Because Scripture cannot deny Him in any away, anything that denies Him, is stone.

 

[DanielL]

it's your own intuition

My "own intuition" is that God is Perfect, Immutable and Holy. That is the God I worshipp, if you want to serve your imperfect idol, that is on you. Every soul must choose for himself, whom will they serve. You can't serve both, tho.

 

[Bluezone777]

No one here is challenging the scriptures as what we are challenging is Daniel's interpretation of them. Somehow he thinks his interpretation of the scriptures as equal to the books themselves or of higher esteem to every other person's interpretation of the scriptures which they are not. It seems to me he takes a lot of pride in his interpretations and rather cling to them, continuing deeper and deeper into error and ending up in the bowels of hell himself as no follower of Christ would be allowed to go into error and stay there indefinitely. It seems to me he has no real regard for the Bible and only pretends to regard it as important as somehow he believes he gets to choose what parts and books of the bible matter and which don't. That is in no way the makings of any genuine follower of Christ so he should really quit playing games and either take the whole Bible at face value or throw it away and stop pretending to be what you aren't. It doesn't do anyone any favors to pretend to be something you should actually be which in this case is a follower of Christ. Jesus entrusted his life into the hands of the scriptures as he responded to each of the devil's temptations while in the desert with scripture and scripture alone. The apostles when writing what would become the new testament quoted the old testament extensively which should say something for how important both the old and new testament should be to a follower of Christ.

I'd say you should quit while you are ahead but I am certain you won't as your pride and arrogance won't let you do so which while disappointing is also predictable. You claim to serve God but your flippant handling of scripture shows you only serve yourself. You fool no one here as that I am certain.

 

[Albion]

The Holy Spirit cannot "authorize" sin, nor abomination, nor anything against the Will of the Father..

I think we all agree on that, so it's not going to settle anything in this discussion.

 

[Albion]

My "own intuition" is that God is Perfect, Immutable and Holy. That is the God I worship....

You've intuited that God somehow condemns the killing of animals, and this is a belief that is contrary to the Word of God, as many of us here have shown you repeatedly.

That's what I was referring to and I think you knew that.

In addition, no Christian should flatter himself by assuming that any errant notion springing from the mind of man is actually a personal revelation received from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lamb]

My "own intuition" is that God is Perfect, Immutable and Holy. That is the God I worshipp, if you want to serve your imperfect idol, that is on you. Every soul must choose for himself, whom will they serve. You can't serve both, tho.

That's the problem. You're using your intuition instead of actual scripture that everyone has quoted you...on this board and others.

 

[DanielL]

I think we all agree on that, so it's not going to settle anything in this discussion.

If you agree on that, you will agree that it wasn't the Holy Spirit that allowed for murder, sin, shedding of innocent blood, and such things that are against His Will.
Because:
-God cannot command blood sacrifices, because they are against His Will, according to Scripture:

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

-God won't accept nor command abominations, such as shedding innocent blood.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

-God cannot change His Word, nor His Law concerning food, in this case, because God is Perfect and therefore Immutable.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

-God cannot legalize murder, because He is Perfect and Holy.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

-So, if you believe in a Perfect Holy God, you can't believe He commanded or allowed such abominations that are against His Will, whoever did wasn't God, nor the Holy Spirit..

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

You've intuited that God somehow condemns the killing of animals, and this is a belief that is contrary to the Word of God

Yes, He condemns all murderers, who works against His Will, and if God gave life, who are you to take it away?
-Now, understand that the Perfect God cannot command that which is against His Will. Whoever did was not God, nor the Holy Spirit. And because the witness of God is greater, we must believe in His Holiness above any other witness, even if that witness is labelled as "the word of God".

Ezekiel 22:28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.

Jeremiah 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these.

5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;

6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the Lord is with us’? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[DanielL]

That's the problem. You're using your intuition instead of actual scripture

First believing in a Perfect Holy God is not a problem, second I have Scripture to defend my Perfect Holy God. Here it is.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Psalm 119:89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

Mathew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Baruch 4:1 This is the book of the commandments of God, and the law that endureth for ever: all they that keep it shall come to life; but such as leave it shall die.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Psalm 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

 

[Lamb]

The verses that deny Him in any way, are stone. Because Scripture cannot deny Him. The verses that say God changed His Mind, for example, are stone. The verses that say He changed His Law too. The verses that say He allowed for murder and abomination, are stone. The verses that say He commanded that which is against His Will are stone. Because Scripture cannot deny Him in any away, anything that denies Him, is stone.

Sounds like you pick and choose which is a pretty poor way to receive scripture.

This refutes everything you have said. It's not stone. It's God's Word. You just don't want to believe it.

Luke 24:42-43
They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

My conscience strongly tells me that @DanielL is right. I've tried fighting it, but it feels like fighting against God Himself. It doesn't make sense for God to tell His creations to destroy among themselves.

 

[Castle Church]

The verses that deny Him in any way, are stone. Because Scripture cannot deny Him. The verses that say God changed His Mind, for example, are stone. The verses that say He changed His Law too. The verses that say He allowed for murder and abomination, are stone. The verses that say He commanded that which is against His Will are stone. Because Scripture cannot deny Him in any away, anything that denies Him, is stone.

OK, so, you are saying that any verse that goes against your interpretation is "stone"? It seems that would mean that in the end, you are the arbiter of what is scripture and what is not - rather than the other way around.

Merely tossing out scripture because it does not fit our belief does not work, we just end up with a scripture that is created purely of our own views and that supports our beliefs.

I am being serious, what parts do you consider scripture? What books? What verses in the books that you do like, but include parts that you do not? You can't just take verses that "work" and make a book or full Bible out of it. Deleting whole books may "work" to a degree, but not parsing out passages, the entire narrative of the books would be destroyed.

So, what does your Bible Table of Contents look like?

 

[Bluezone777]

So, what does your Bible Table of Contents look like?

By the looks of it, a piece of Swiss cheese that is more holes then cheese.

 

[tango]

A Perfect God cannot command sin, nor abominations, nor that which is against His Will. This is what you fail to understand.

If you knew, you wouldn't condemn the guiltless...

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

-God cannot command sin nor abominations. Anyone who says He did, is up against the Witness of God, and His Holy Nature.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

-God cannot command that which is against His Will. Anyone who says He does, is up against the Witness of God, and His Perfect Nature.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

-So, He didn't. That is the Truth. When you build on top of the Perfect Immutable Holy God, that is the conclusion you get, He didn't command sin, nor abominations, nor things that are against His Will.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

You also fail to understand Jesus cannot sin, nor commit abominations, and He does the Will of the Father, so the answer I gave on top, to your brother, serves for you too. He didn't. The Witness of His Perfect Immutable Holy Nature is Greater. Once again, if you had known...

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

-Jesus even freed the animals from the temple, saying His House is a House of prayer, but they had made it into a den of thieves, filled with all manner of abominations, such has shedding innocent blood. The zeal of thine House hath eaten me up..

Psalm 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

-This already had been rebuked by the mouth of Jeremiah, at the temple.

Jeremiah 7:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,

2 Stand in the gate of the Lord's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the Lord, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the Lord.

3 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.

4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these.

5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;

6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

-The shedding innocent blood refers to the innocent blood of the animals the people of Judah were there to sacrifice. The lying words are the corruption of the covenant of Levi that made them think the LORD commanded such abominations, when He didn't, much like you guys trust in lying words, even to this day, and don't understand that He didn't.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

You know, you can repeat the same thing over and over and over again and it doesn't make it any more relevant.

 

[tango]

He didn't. Ignoring Scripture won't make it go away..

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Now, you choose whom will ye serve. The LORD that hates hands that shed innocent blood, or the bloodthirty murderer who demands bloodshed, and delights in abominations. You can't serve both masters.

This shows whom you serve, an imperfect idol, that commands sin. You are even admitting killing animals is a sin, saying God commands it, which is blasphemy, God is Holy and does not command sin, only your idol does.

Ding ding ding! And we have a winner.... if your argument falls totally flat due to being utterly devoid of merit you get to play the "your idol" card and act as if anyone who disagrees is following some other God.

Bonus points for endlessly quoting an irrelevant verse.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

OK, so, you are saying that any verse that goes against your interpretation is "stone"?

His interpretation is based on his conscience. Unless it is severely altered by evil, the conscience of each human finds killing to be wrong, and they would not do it if they were not pressured by external factors, such as hunger, peer pressure, social conditioning etc.

In a world in which meat would cease to be sold anywhere (it would be completely banned from the market), but hunting and access to weapons and bullets was legal, and the supermarkets were always full of every type of fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds that are good for humans at cheap prices, how many people would choose to buy guns and go hunt in the forests?

 

[Castle Church]

His interpretation is based on his conscience.

Which is not how we interpret scripture.

Unless it is severely altered by evil, the conscience of each human finds killing to be wrong, and they would not do it if they were not pressured by external factors, such as hunger, peer pressure, social conditioning etc.

In a world in which meat would cease to be sold anywhere (it would be completely banned from the market), but hunting and access to weapons and bullets was legal, and the supermarkets were always full of every type of fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds that are good for humans at cheap prices, how many people would choose to buy guns and go hunt in the forests?

Quite a few would choose to do so. The scripture interpretation given by the member does not hold up as we are to interpret scripture in light of the rest of scripture. In this case there literally are reasons and ways to interpret the scripture different than the member says, interpretations that actually enable the entire body of scripture to still "work" without throwing out parts that "don't work".

Deciding on an arbitrary or conscience driven starting point only serves to warp scripture to our purposes.

If one wants to argue that Man is meant to eat a vegetarian diet based on Genesis then that is an argument that can be made, but to try and prove that it is a SIN to do otherwise or that vast passages and Books of the Bible are wrong just does not hold up to scripture even a little bit.

 

[Albion]

His interpretation is based on his conscience.

Many would say that we are compelled to follow our consciences. NO ONE should argue that whatever we think our consciences are telling us is, therefore, what God has decreed.

Yet that is the awkward and unsubstantiated argument we've been hearing here...augmented of course by the claim that whatever the person's intuition seems to be telling him is revelation from the Holy Spirit even if it conflicts with the Word of God in Scripture.

Unless it is severely altered by evil, the conscience of each human finds killing to be wrong, and they would not do it if they were not pressured by external factors, such as hunger, peer pressure, social conditioning etc.

Maybe, but that has not been the argument our friend has put to us here. His claim was that killing an animal for food or some other reason is the same as murdering a human, which we all would agree is wrong to do.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Which is not how we interpret scripture.

Quite a few would choose to do so. The scripture interpretation given by the member does not hold up as we are to interpret scripture in light of the rest of scripture. In this case there literally are reasons and ways to interpret the scripture different than the member says, interpretations that actually enable the entire body of scripture to still "work" without throwing out parts that "don't work".

Deciding on an arbitrary or conscience driven starting point only serves to warp scripture to our purposes.

If one wants to argue that Man is meant to eat a vegetarian diet based on Genesis then that is an argument that can be made, but to try and prove that it is a SIN to do otherwise or that vast passages and Books of the Bible are wrong just does not hold up to scripture even a little bit.

I don't believe in biblical infallibility and inerrancy because it was collected and put together by humans and there was no supernatural confirmation (that I know of) of its accuracy. The Holy Spirit did not visibly and audibly descend over the council that created the Biblical canon while they were doing so.