Jesus died for the sins of the world

[Lamb]

nor did he die for the betrayer known as judas

Actually, He did. See 2 Corinthians 5:15

 

[pinacled]

Actually, He did. See 2 Corinthians 5:15

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Lamb]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of
perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Those verses don't address who Jesus died for...just those who actually benefit from His death (by grace through faith).

I gave you 2 Corinthians 5:15 and it says, "And he died for all"

 

[Andrew]

nor did he die for the betrayer known as judas

Judas thought he could pay back the debt by returning the money to ease his guilt by "repenting himself", as a thief he believed the only way to save himself from this awful sin was by paying off the debt himself to undue the sin and even after that didn't work he hung himself on a tree, that's frightening to think about, this man knew Jesus personally and sold him out. He was possessed by Satan but notice that satan had to wait for Jesus to loosen him "what you must do, do it quickly"

 

[atpollard]

Ok. Why is it that I understand you (Calvinist) and Josiah (Lutheran) and agree with both yet you two don't disagree with each others theology? Im not talking about differences in the church, but when Josiah says he doesn't believe in limited atonement but does agree that the benefits of the atonement is only beneficial to those he chooses to give irresistible grace to (having no choice in accepting or rejecting it)?

I am indifferent towards Limited Atonement. It makes logical sense. Some scripture appears to support it. Some scripture appears to contradict it. No scripture is unequivocal concerning the question. Ultimately, the question of whose and which sins Jesus became (and God accept the blood of Christ to cover) is a matter between the Father and the Son requiring no input from me.

I tend to correct mis-statements about the other Particular Baptist items (TU*IP) about which scripture does offer unequivocal verses of clear support.

Someone may think that some part of them was not corrupted by sin, but Total Depravity and Scripture state that all are under sin. [Romans 3]

Someone may think that they have the ability to thwart the plan and will of Almighty God, but Irresistible Grace and Scripture state that God works all things after the council of His will. [Ephesians 1]

 

[atpollard]

are you saying that taking the mark of the beast is forgivable?

Are you saying that someone taking the mark of the beast would repent?

 

[Josiah]

Jesus didn't die for the fallen angels or Satan.

Neither being people....



.

 

[pinacled]

Those verses don't address who Jesus died for...just those who actually benefit from His death (by grace through faith).

I gave you 2 Corinthians 5:15 and it says, "And he died for all"

I believe ole sh'aul using "all" in this instance reffers to jews and gentiles.

Context As per
Romans 3
[ 29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles; 30 because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. 31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah. ]

2 Corinthians 5:14
[14 For the Messiah’s love has hold of us, because we are convinced that one man died on behalf of all mankind (which implies that all mankind was already dead), ]

 

[Lamb]

I believe ole sh'aul using "all" in this instance reffers to jews and gentiles.

Context As per
Romans 3
[ 29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles; 30 because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. 31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah. ]

Romans 3:23 states this

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So are you implying that ALL does not mean ALL?

 

[pinacled]

Romans 3:23 states this

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So are you implying that ALL does not mean ALL?

All manner of mankind are forgiven except the murderers like cain who blasphemed Adonai

Leviticus 24:16
Whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD must surely be put to death; the whole assembly must surely stone him, whether he is a foreign resident or native; if he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

Matthew 12:32
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

Mark 3:28
Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter.

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven

 

[Lamb]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgiven because it's disbelief. That doesn't mean that Jesus did not die for all.

 

[1689Dave]

I recently got SXM radio and was listening to Family Talk (a Christian station). I used to understand Calvanism as sound theology but never considered myself one, but this host had me thinking. He mentioned Calvinist and refuted the claim that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.
Jesus in fact died for everyone's sin HOWEVER any individual can choose to reject His atonement if they wish and in doing so remain condemned to die the second death.
God wills that all be saved.
How then can we harmonize free will with the will of God?
I don't believe works save, I believe works are evidence of faith and that these works are charity (God being the sole witness to them).
Fruits of the Spirit or gifts of the Spirit have nothing to do with works, they are God given attributes for his elected servants.
Thoughts?

Universal atonement = salvation by works. Limited atonement = salvation by grace. This is how it pans out.

 

[Lamb]

Universal atonement = salvation by works. Limited atonement = salvation by grace. This is how it pans out.

How is Universal Atonement by works when it's ALL dependent on Jesus?

 

[1689Dave]

How is Universal Atonement by works when it's ALL dependent on Jesus?

If Christ died for all, his death saved no one. They must save themselves through obedience until the day they drop.

 

[Lamb]

If Christ died for all, his death saved no one. They must save themselves through obedience until the day they drop.

Christ died for all but some will reject it, so not all will be saved in the end when He returns.

 

[1689Dave]

Christ died for all but some will reject it, so not all will be saved in the end when He returns.

Which means they save themselves through obedience. Listen to Luther on this.

Martin Luther says; First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved.

These things, therefore, are openly proclaimed for the sake of the Elect: that, being by these means humbled and brought down to nothing, they might be saved. The rest resist this humiliation; nay, they condemn the teaching of self-desperation; they wish to have left a little something that they may do themselves. These secretly remain proud, and adversaries to the grace of God. This, I say, is one reason—that those who fear God, being humbled, might know, call upon, and receive the grace of God.[1]

Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther

---

[1] Martin Luther. (n.d.). The Bondage of the Will.

 

[Albion]

If Christ died for all, his death saved no one. They must save themselves through obedience until the day they drop.

I wanted at first to ask "what are you talking about??" but I think you've simply misunderstood the meaning of the words there. That's what happens when any of us decides to separate from the church and go it alone as a self-made Bible expert.

The meaning of "Christ died for all" is not that he saved all, but rather that he made "all" be eligible for salvation. No one who lived prior to the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ was eligible for salvation because the human race, of which we all are part, had become estranged from God through the actions of Adam and Eve.

 

[Lamb]

Which means they save themselves through obedience. Listen to Luther on this.

Martin Luther says; First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved.

These things, therefore, are openly proclaimed for the sake of the Elect: that, being by these means humbled and brought down to nothing, they might be saved. The rest resist this humiliation; nay, they condemn the teaching of self-desperation; they wish to have left a little something that they may do themselves. These secretly remain proud, and adversaries to the grace of God. This, I say, is one reason—that those who fear God, being humbled, might know, call upon, and receive the grace of God.[1]

Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther

---

[1] Martin Luther. (n.d.). The Bondage of the Will.

You completely misunderstand Luther.

Luther was not saying that salvation was because we were obedient (as in good little boys and girls). Nothing above is written in those terms. He believed that the Holy Spirit brings us to the knowledge of our sins and by His grace through faith we receive salvation. It comes not from ourselves or our doing at all.

 

[1689Dave]

You completely misunderstand Luther.

Luther was not saying that salvation was because we were obedient (as in good little boys and girls). Nothing above is written in those terms. He believed that the Holy Spirit brings us to the knowledge of our sins and by His grace through faith we receive salvation. It comes not from ourselves or our doing at all.

Luther said that only when you know you are helplessly lost will you look to Christ to save you.

 

[1689Dave]

I wanted at first to ask "what are you talking about??" but I think you've simply misunderstood the meaning of the words there. That's what happens when any of us decides to separate from the church and go it alone as a self-made Bible expert.

The meaning of "Christ died for all" is not that he saved all, but rather that he made "all" be eligible for salvation. No one who lived prior to the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ was eligible for salvation because the human race, of which we all are part, had become estranged from God through the actions of Adam and Eve.

= salvation by works.