Jesus died for the sins of the world

[Josiah]

This ends in salvation by works.

Nothing "ends."

Universal atonement simply means that Jesus died for all (thus you know He died for you). I believe this is well supported by Scripture, whereas the opinion of a tiny number of radical Calvinists that Jesus died ONLY for a few is not found anywhere in Scripture (and means no one can know if Jesus died for them).

Salvation by works means that our justification is the result of what each unregenerate person does for themselves, either wholly or partly. I believe this is not biblical.


Prove that holding that Jesus is the Savior proves that we save ourselves. I think that's nonsense and unbiblical.


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[1689Dave]

Nothing "ends."

Universal atonement simply means that Jesus died for all (thus you know He died for you). I believe this is well supported by Scripture, whereas the opinion of a tiny number of radical Calvinists that Jesus died ONLY for a few is not found anywhere in Scripture (and means no one can know if Jesus died for them).

Salvation by works means that our justification is the result of what each unregenerate person does for themselves, either wholly or partly. I believe this is not biblical.


Prove that holding that Jesus is the Savior proves that we save ourselves. I think that's nonsense. BTW, we are saved by works - just not our own, but those of Christ (Universal Atonement).


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His blood paid for the sins of those who by grace believe. Most do not believe and perish. So you deny that his shed blood saves. Or they would be saved.

 

[Albion]

Opportunity to save yourself by works.

If that is the belief you want to stay with, even after it's been shown to be in error, suit yourself.

We're sorry if that's where it will end, even though it always does. But all we can do is give you the correct answer, explain why it's correct, and then not be too upset when you come back and say, as you always do, that you intend to believe the mistake you started with.

Is there some reason for that, by the way? Are you afraid of "losing face" if you are ever wrong? Or is it that you just prefer the theology you have fashioned for yourself to the Christian religion?

 

[1689Dave]

If that is the belief you want to stay with, even after it's been shown to be in error, suit yourself.

We're sorry if that's where it will end, even though it always does. But all we can do is give you the correct answer, explain why it's correct, and then not be too upset when you come back and say, as you always do, that you intend to believe the mistake you started with.

Is there some reason for that, by the way? Are you afraid of "losing face" if you are ever wrong? Or is it that you just prefer the theology you have fashioned for yourself to the Christian religion?

You are suggesting salvation is by works when you say the lost have an opportunity...... to save themselves? How else can it be taken? What about the helpless as Luther points out?

 

[Albion]

His blood paid for the sins of those who by grace believe. Most do not believe and perish. So you deny that his shed blood saves. Or they would be saved.

Why make false accusations against the posters who hold a different view from you here? No one has denied that Christ's shed blood saves.

The point was that Christ died for all, but not all will respond. That's not so hard to understand, is it?

 

[Josiah]

His blood paid for the sins of those who by grace believe. Most do not believe and perish. So you deny that his shed blood saves. Or they would be saved.

I reject that. I hold to Universal Atonement, as the Bible teaches. Jesus died for all, not ONLY some as you claim. What He did for us is apprehended by faith. The biblical teaching is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE - Soli Deo Gloria. You simply desire to delete the faith part. Those who perish do so NOT because Jesus failed them, not because Jesus was amiss, not because the Cross let them down but because they did not apprehend Christ's works by faith. Perishing is a result of no faith, not no Savior.



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[1689Dave]

Why make false accusations against the posters who hold a different view from you here? No one has denied that Christ's shed blood saves.

The point was that Christ died for all, but not all will respond. That's not so hard to understand, is it?

= all would not save themselves...............

 

[1689Dave]

I reject that. I hold to Universal Atonement, as the Bible teaches. Jesus died for all, not ONLY some as you claim. What He did for us is apprehended by faith. The biblical teaching is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE - Soli Deo Gloria. You simply desire to delete the faith part. Those who perish do so NOT because Jesus failed them, not because Jesus was amiss, not because the Cross let them down but because they did not apprehend Christ's works by faith. Perishing is a result of no faith, not no Savior.



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That is your interpretation. The bible does not teach universal atonement.

 

[Albion]

You are suggesting salvation is by works when you say the lost have an opportunity

No, I'm not.

..... to save themselves? How else can it be taken?

We've all explained it to you repeatedly. Most of the time, you simply reply by insisting that we said the opposite of what we'd told you.

 

[Josiah]

That is your interpretation. The bible does not teach universal atonement.

Prove the Bible states, "Jesus died ONLY for some unknowable few." Good luck. Radical Calvinists have been looking for that verse for 500 years but none has been able.

 

[Albion]

That is your interpretation. The bible does not teach universal atonement.

None of us here believes in universal atonement, if by that you mean universal salvation.

 

[1689Dave]

None of us here believes in universal atonement, if by that you mean universal salvation.

It proves Jesus didn't save anyone according to you. As you say he supposedly made a way for not too sinful people to save themselves.

 

[1689Dave]

Prove the Bible states, "Jesus died ONLY for some unknowable few." Good luck. Radical Calvinists have been looking for that verse for 500 years but none has been able.

I have plenty of scripture that proves it. But I have more to offer first.

Universal atonement results in salvation by works. Because it didn’t save anyone. It only supposedly cleared the way for people to save themselves through works of obedience. This became known as Pelagianism, condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431.

 

[Albion]

= all would not save themselves...............

No one saves himself.

It proves Jesus didn't save anyone according to you.

No, it doesn't. And that's an insulting tactic for you to adopt, even though your own claims have fallen through..

As you say he supposedly made a way for not too sinful people to save themselves.

"As I say?" ??

You know very well that I did not say that.

 

[1689Dave]

No one saves himself.

No, it doesn't. And that's an insulting tactic for you to adopt, even though your own claims have fallen through..

"As i say?" ??

You know very well that I did not say that.

"Opportunity"? To save yourself? What else could it mean?

 

[Josiah]

The bible does not teach universal atonement.

@1689Dave


Limited Atonement.

This view, invented by a tiny number of radical Calvinists 500 years ago, insists that Jesus did not die for all but rather for ONLY some, a few unknowable some. But for 500 years, they've been looking for a verse that states, "Jesus died not for all but only for some." So far, after 500 years, none of them have found that verse. We all know why.

Scripture:

Crickets.



Universal Atonement.

This view teaches that Jesus died for all. Not all are saved since not all have faith, but Jesus did die for all.

Scripture:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.



"Limited Atonement" requires that these 13 verses (and many more) are all false, wrong, lying. I don't agree with that. And of course, those like you who support limited atonement have NO ONE VERSE that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some."

I think it is obvious and undeniable which view Scripture teaches. My wife's family are all Calvinists - going back to the Scottish Reformation - and to a person, they all admit this. Honest Calvinist do.





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[Albion]

"Opportunity"? To save yourself? What else could it mean?

HERE is what you wrote--
"As you say he supposedly made a way for not too sinful people to save themselves."

I not only never did say that, but the statement about Jesus is false. Jesus did not make any "way for not too sinful people to save themselves." That's just ridiculous.

 

[1689Dave]

HERE is what you wrote--

"As you say he supposedly made a way for not too sinful people to save themselves."

I not only never did say that, but the statement is false. Jesus did not make any "way for not too sinful people to save themselves." That's just ridiculous.

But sin deadens the will so it cannot discern spiritual truth. So I take it you believe in free will? Condemned as heresy at Ephesus is 431?

 

[Albion]

So I take it you believe in free will?

By now, I don't doubt that you do. (sigh)


In addition, you've posted that you "take it" that...

1) I believe everyone can save himself by himself

2) that I believe Jesus didn't save anyone at all (!)

3) but also that I think some will be saved...by their Works.

 

[Josiah]

None of us here believes in universal atonement, if by that you mean universal salvation.

Correct.

It could be that Dave simply is revealing yet another amazing misunderstanding.....

Universal Atonement affirms what the Bible SO often, SO clearly, SO undeniably states: Jesus died for all. But it does not teach that ergo all are personally saved. Perhaps the most quoted verse for Christians is John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son (universal atonement) that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in Him (faith) shall not perish but has everlasting life."

In Reformation theology, this is expressed as...
"Sola Gratia" (Grace Alone, not our merit or works. God's unmerited love, grace, mercy)
"Solus Christus" (Christ Alone, His works, His Cross, the Atonement He gained)
"Sola Fide" (Faith Alone. We apprehend this work of Christ by the gift of faith that trusts and relies in Christ)
"Soli Deo Gloria" (To God Alone be the Glory, God gets all the glory, all the credit for our justification)

None of the remotely embraces that each one saves self by their own works. But what some radical Calvinists do is delete the Faith part, insisting that if Christ died for someone they thus are saved (faith being irrelevant). This is just one problem with the radical Calvinist theory of LIMITED Atonement. Traditionally, Christians have held that we are saved BY GRACE, BECAUSE OF CHRIST, THROUGH FAITH.


See post 136



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