Early Christian writings along with the NT...

[pinacled]

Yeah, that area was dominated by Greek and Rome remember?

I have a minute education of history for reason of importance.
Avoiding opinions of sorcerers who lie about history is a way to walk in peace.
A geographical area never defines a jew.
Where ole sh'aul was born was a trading route of both information and materials.
Ie silk road hub.

Jews devoted their lives to studying torah.
The talmudic comentaries are extrapolatory evidence of such a work from the house.

Your first paragraph is far from understanding jewish people

 

[Andrew]

You should read Daniel 11 and then read 1rst Maccabees which is another JEWISH sacred scripture (as described by Martin Luther)
There you will find that the first chapter of 1rst Maccabees fulfills the prophecy in Daniel 11

From there on you can read how far the greek world had spread and stationed itself in Turkey as its center of philosophy and learning where in Tarsus he was born.

Paul spoke and wrote greek and had to learn Hebrew

 

[pinacled]

More like they were ingrained into a culture of the greek rule centuries before and the descendants inherited that culture as the norm while maintaining their religious traditions none the less.
Just look at Jews in America today, I can name more Jewish celebrities and directors/producers in Hollywood than Christians celebrities and producers, not all Jews are learned in Hebrew although they do keep to their traditions, a good number of Jews in America are atheist.. sounds strange but it's true, they are considered a race of their own so it doesn't make them non Jewish if they don't believe in God.
In Jerusalem it's very different, their culture is their own, the children are raised in Hebrew schools and then go on to learn at Hebrew academies, studying the Torah diligently and ultimately devoting their lives to the study of the Talmud if they wish to become Rabbis, the rest serve in the Jewish community from merchants to doctors to government, very very different from most American Jews..

Paul was born Jewish in a greek environment speaking the language of greek and then learned Hebrew in Jerusalem, he would have known of the greek translations, yet he never mentioned a great concern over centuries old translations of the Jewish Holy books, he only warned of other any other gospel ("being no gospel at all") being preached and brought into churches bringing in doctrines of devils (The Gnostics who taught that Christ did not come in the flesh but was pure light/spirit)

Christians had no problem booting out the false gospels of the gnostics

American jews in hollywood.

Please name them and their monetary source.

 

[pinacled]

You should read Daniel 11 and then read 1rst Maccabees which is another JEWISH sacred scripture (as described by Martin Luther)
There you will find that the first chapter of 1rst Maccabees fulfills the prophecy in Daniel 11

From there on you can read how far the greek world had spread and stationed itself in Turkey as its center of philosophy and learning where in Tarsus he was born.

Paul spoke and wrote greek and had to learn Hebrew

For yourself and other readers here.
The phrase hellenistic jew is a term used for mixed families; Unlike ole sh'aul(paul) who had both parents of hebrew decent. Ie , "hebrew of hebrews of the tribe of binyammin".
One such example of a hellenistic jew is timothy whose mother was a jew and father was a greek.
Acts 16: 1-3

Blessings Always

 

[Andrew]

For yourself and other readers here.
The phrase hellenistic jew is a term used for mixed families, Unlike ole sh'aul(paul) who had both parents of hebrew decent. Ie , "hebrew of hebrews of the tribe of binyammin".
One such example of hellenistic jew is timothy whose mother was a jew and father was a greek.
Acts 16: 1-3

Blessings Always

.

 

[pinacled]

.

"Hellenistic judaism", is an oxymoron term used by psuedigraphical scholastic historians who very much likely arbitrated a thesis based on their educational bias from a greek fraternity.

 

[Andrew]

"Hellenistic judaism", is an oxymoron term used by psuedigraphical scholastic historians who very much likely arbitrated a thesis based on their educational bias from a greek fraternity.

Read 1 and 2 Maccabees, it's Jewish history, it will help you grasp the understanding and meaning.. I dont know where you got your definition from but it's entirely false

 

[pinacled]

Read 1 and 2 Maccabees, it's Jewish history, it will help you grasp the understanding and meaning.. I dont know where you got your definition from but it's entirely false

I first read the books of maccabees and the book of tobit a decade ago.

Neither have anything to do with a fictional hellenistic judaism.

Judaism is a hebrew culture alone and independent of influence from gentiles.
So far you seem to be promoting a blend of culture and influence beyond the paradigm norms of history.
Blurring the distinctions between cultures in such a manner is inapropriate.

How much influence from reading psuedigraphical works are you intending to purvey here at this forum?

 

[pinacled]

Read 1 and 2 Maccabees, it's Jewish history, it will help you grasp the understanding and meaning.. I dont know where you got your definition from but it's entirely false

Are you confusing the maccabean revolt with the bar kokhvah revolt that occurred during the first and second century.

 

[pinacled]

For a time... for Jews who knew Greek but not Hebrew.... It provided a TRANSLATION of some books read at times in some synagogues. So what? What does that have to do with all Christianity officially/formally/definitively declaring what is and is not canoncial? For some 300 years, The King James ENGLISH Translation was read in Anglican Churches around the world.... for 300 years, Luther's GERMAN translation was read in Lutheran churches in Germany.... What does that prove about Christianity declaring exactly what is and is not Scripture in a formal/official/definitive way? How does that prove that Christianity did at some (yet unnamed) Council what Judaism did at their Council of Jamnia?

Yes, the LXX provided a GREEK translation of some stuff and was used by some Jews who could understand/read Greek but not Hebrew. So what? The Latin Vulgate was a LATIN translation of some stuff and was used by some Christians who could understand/read Latin but not Greek. Neither was an official/formal declaration of anything by anyone for anything, they were TRANSLATIONS for customers who desired to read things in a language they could understand.... Just like Luther's and the KJV and the NIV and the ESV and thousands of other translations. The LXX was a translation - one of thousands - nothing more.





.

There are perhaps hellenistic jews who lacked fluency in the hebrew tongue.
Even so they were still taught customary hebrew prayers such as the shema.

Similar to how latin is used in the RCC services. Only hebrew is spoken in synagogue and temple services. Never was greek used during such occasions.

As for Andrews assertions that ole sh'aul was raised greek speaking before learning hebrew is very inaccurate.
And the evidence is in the address accounted during his defence against the hellenistic and asian jews who slandered him.

When ole sh'aul stated he is a, "hebrew of hebrews of the tribe of binyammin".
All of the yhdhm(jewry) understood his claim of having a jewish mother and father. The father having and giving the inherited fraternal tribal name.

The reason "hellenistic jew" phrase occurs in scripture is to educate readers that if ones mother is jewish then their children are also. Regardless of their patrilineal lineage.
Yet they will lack a fraternal tribal lineage to inherit.

Hence the prospect and posterity of timothy being circumcised and given a new name.
Adopted into first the same tribe as ole sh'aul and called his son if I recall correctly.

First one must study hebrew culture before speculating on unknowns of scriptural speech from ole sh'aul in his letters.
Something of which is warned of from kefa(peter). 2 peter 3

Blessings Always

 

[Andrew]

I first read the books of maccabees and the book of tobit a decade ago.

Neither have anything to do with a fictional hellenistic judaism.

Judaism is a hebrew culture alone and independent of influence from gentiles.
So far you seem to be promoting a blend of culture and influence beyond the paradigm norms of history.
Blurring the distinctions between cultures in such a manner is inapropriate.

How much influence from reading psuedigraphical works are you intending to purvey here at this forum?

Hellenistic Judaism is not a fictitious term nor an oxymoron, its historical fact.

pinacled, if Paul studied the law at a rabbinical school in Jerusalem at such a young age being completely non secular (having no 'ella/greek influence), then why was he extremely well versed and learned in Greek philosophy and spoke and wrote in the Greek language and used Greek idioms in his letters?

A loyal and practising Jew that spoke greek and studied greek culture and literature??

Why would Paul compromise his Jewish culture with secular studies that he didn't even have to go to school for if he wasn't influenced by it? If you say it was because he was flawed then it proves my point, if you say it was just out of interest then it likewise disproves your point.

Paul was a hellenistic Jew because he was born a Jew in a highly prominent hellenist area of Turkey, right in the bulls eye center of greek academia and western thought.

Acts 21 suggest that "Egyptian" when describing Paul is in reference to Alexandria, Egypt (where the famed Library was located) to identify his demographic as greco-roman..
in other words a "hellenistic Jew" as an insult to Paul, but Paul had learned Hebrew hence why Paul had to announce that he knows Hebrew

 

[pinacled]

Hellenistic Judaism is not a fictitious term nor an oxymoron, its historical fact.

pinacled, if Paul studied the law at a rabbinical school in Jerusalem at such a young age being completely non secular (having no 'ella/greek influence), then why was he extremely well versed and learned in Greek philosophy and spoke and wrote in the Greek language and used Greek idioms in his letters?

A loyal and practising Jew that spoke greek and studied greek culture and literature??

Why would Paul compromise his Jewish culture with secular studies that he didn't even have to go to school for if he wasn't influenced by it? If you say it was because he was flawed then it proves my point, if you say it was just out of interest then it likewise disproves your point.

Paul was a hellenistic Jew because he was born a Jew in a highly prominent hellenist area of Turkey, right in the bulls eye center of greek academia and western thought.

Acts 21 suggest that "Egyptian" when describing Paul is in reference to Alexandria, Egypt (where the famed Library was located) to identify his demographic as greco-roman..
in other words a "hellenistic Jew" as an insult to Paul, but Paul had learned Hebrew hence why Paul had to announce that he knows Hebrew

How is the condition of ones heart raised hebrew speaking or not relate to geographical history.
The silk road is far older than the greco/roman empire.

In fact it was the tribe of yissachar who established trading ports and routes across the western sea of yisrayl and beyond.

If I recall correctly.

Perhaps take into account another perspective where hebrew was taught to other neighboring nations such as Rome and Greece <before <they attempted to conquer and tax a pre existing trade route of commerce.
Ie the adage of all roads lead to rome and are roman.

Greed has a way of perverting justice.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

Hellenistic Judaism is not a fictitious term nor an oxymoron, its historical fact.

pinacled, if Paul studied the law at a rabbinical school in Jerusalem at such a young age being completely non secular (having no 'ella/greek influence), then why was he extremely well versed and learned in Greek philosophy and spoke and wrote in the Greek language and used Greek idioms in his letters?

A loyal and practising Jew that spoke greek and studied greek culture and literature??

Why would Paul compromise his Jewish culture with secular studies that he didn't even have to go to school for if he wasn't influenced by it? If you say it was because he was flawed then it proves my point, if you say it was just out of interest then it likewise disproves your point.

Paul was a hellenistic Jew because he was born a Jew in a highly prominent hellenist area of Turkey, right in the bulls eye center of greek academia and western thought.

Acts 21 suggest that "Egyptian" when describing Paul is in reference to Alexandria, Egypt (where the famed Library was located) to identify his demographic as greco-roman..
in other words a "hellenistic Jew" as an insult to Paul, but Paul had learned Hebrew hence why Paul had to announce that he knows Hebrew

Question:
When did he write in greek?
And exhibit well versed education in greek philosophy?

 

[Andrew]

Are you confusing the maccabean revolt with the bar kokhvah revolt that occurred during the first and second century.

No I am talking about the re-dedication of the 2nd Temple by the Maccabees.

The greeks had taken over their Holy temple to the point that they erected a statue of Zeus and the priests were sacrificing pigs to the greek gods in the Temple. Now how do you explain by what manner the Jews got their temple back?

Judas Maccabees and his men revolted and ran them out of the Temple, kind of like how Jesus ran off the money changers in the Temple, a bit of typology and shadow there IMO.

Jesus celebrated the feast of dedication in the Temple, Jesus was completely aware of the origins of this festival which was based on the Maccabean revolt.

"Hanukkah" derives from the Hebrew verb "חנך‎", meaning "to dedicate"

The first four chapter of 1rst Maccabees is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 11

Don't believe me? Read for yourself

Whether you identify the books of 1rst and 2nd Maccabees as scripture or not is irrelevant to the history of the Holiday that Jesus celebrated and Jews today still celebrate

 

[pinacled]

No I am talking about the re-dedication of the 2nd Temple by the Maccabees.

The greeks had taken over their Holy temple to the point that they erected a statue of Zeus and the priests were sacrificing pigs to the greek gods in the Temple. Now how do you explain by what manner the Jews got their temple back?

Judas Maccabees and his men revolted and ran them out of the Temple, kind of like how Jesus ran off the money changers in the Temple, a bit of typology and shadow there IMO.

Jesus celebrated the feast of dedication in the Temple, Jesus was completely aware of the origins of this festival which was based on the Maccabean revolt.

"Hanukkah" derives from the Hebrew verb "חנך‎", meaning "to dedicate"

The first four chapter of 1rst Maccabees is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 11

Don't believe me? Read for yourself

Whether you identify the books of 1rst and 2nd Maccabees as scripture or not is irrelevant to the history of the Holiday that Jesus celebrated and Jews today still celebrate

Celebrated?
Nah

[ And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.]


I'm quite aware and studious of torah.
And fully understand where in direction Solomon's porch faced.
A southern direction in likeneness to the menorahs placement in the mishkan.


Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

No I am talking about the re-dedication of the 2nd Temple by the Maccabees.

The greeks had taken over their Holy temple to the point that they erected a statue of Zeus and the priests were sacrificing pigs to the greek gods in the Temple. Now how do you explain by what manner the Jews got their temple back?

Judas Maccabees and his men revolted and ran them out of the Temple, kind of like how Jesus ran off the money changers in the Temple, a bit of typology and shadow there IMO.

Jesus celebrated the feast of dedication in the Temple, Jesus was completely aware of the origins of this festival which was based on the Maccabean revolt.

"Hanukkah" derives from the Hebrew verb "חנך‎", meaning "to dedicate"

The first four chapter of 1rst Maccabees is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 11

Don't believe me? Read for yourself

Whether you identify the books of 1rst and 2nd Maccabees as scripture or not is irrelevant to the history of the Holiday that Jesus celebrated and Jews today still celebrate

Do you understand in spirit the hebrew verb of dedication in relation to circumcision of the heart?

 

[Andrew]

Do you understand in spirit the hebrew verb of dedication in relation to circumcision of the heart?

I understand that Jesus is the Temple he proclaimed would be built in three days and that as believers our body is the Temple (dwelling place of God)...

...however, in ancient Judaism, the feast of dedication was a celebration in honor of the Maccabees reclaiming the Temple.
After the Temples destruction in 70 AD the holiday shied away from the emphasis of victory and focused more on a miraculous event that followed, the burning of a days worth of oil lasting 8 days... the miracle story is not recorded in Maccabees but my point here is that the real miracle they choose to ignore is that Christ is the Temple.

The 8th of Tevet is a day Jews annually mourn the translations of the hebrew into greek because it allowed gentiles to use their sacred books in order to beguil jews into a false messianic cult, they literally mourn the "lost souls" of Jews who believed in Christ Jesus as their Messiah

 

[Arsenios]

Jews annually mourn the translations of the hebrew into greek because it allowed gentiles to use their sacred books in order to beguil jews into a false messianic cult, they literally mourn the "lost souls" of Jews who believed in Christ Jesus as their Messiah

 

[Andrew]

Yup

 

[Arsenios]

My Lutheran pastor never uses [a translation of the original], he brings his GREEK NT and/or HEBREW OT to Bible class.... when he reads from it, he just does a running translation for US (we lay people who don't know Hebrew and Greek).

So why does your pastor use a non-Christian (and anti-Christian) translation of the OT from it's original Hebrew of 200+ BC into a post-Hellenic Jewish version of that no longer existent text that was translated by post-Hellenic Jews opposed to Christianity?

The Masoretic Text is itself a VERSION of the original, as is the LXX, but the Masoretic is post-Christian and anti-Christian, while the LXX is a very Jewish pre-Christian text received by Christ and the Apostles and the Christian Church after Christ...

The LXX, being a pre-Christian translation by Jews of that very original text, was in common usage by the Hellenized Jews of Christ's time... They were Hellenized linguistically, for all knew Greek as their lingua -Franca, in addition to the language of their host countries, and some Aramaic Hebrew perhaps... Their Hellenizer, Alexander the Great, was by now long gone, of course... But wasn't the LXX written for the Jews? For the diaspora of the Jews for their worship in their local countries? They all spoke the language of the local culture, and their own family dialects of the Jews, as they do in the US to this day - Oy Vay! - And all spoke Koine Greek... But none could translate the Ancient (un-pointed) Texts, yes... And the Masoretic text is pointed, and the original is not, yes?

I mean, did they not create the Masoretic Text across hundreds of years - was it 900 or so years? - specifically to avoid having to deal with the LXX translation of the original by Jewish scholars 200+ BC? And this because it had been received by the Christians whom they hated?

Josiah, I have been away for a time...

I pray all is well with you...

Arsenios