Early Christian writings along with the NT...

Arsenios

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Leave the hostility aside for a moment and use your facilities of reason with accuracy.

The septugugu is a farse recorded by the enemy of the jewish people to prove theirdd suppossed dominance over them.

Do you understand?
I have a hard time following my own advice too...

If what you way is true, it would not have been received by the Jews in the first century AD as it was...

And it would probably have been translated by Greeks, and not Jews...

Arsenios
 

Josiah

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So why does your pastor use a non-Christian (and anti-Christian) translation the OT


He doesn't. As I stated, he doesn't use translations at all (especially not the unofficial JEWISH one into Greek)

The LXX, being a pre-Christian translation by Jews

Yup. One of literally THOUSANDS of translations. And yes, one done by JEWS. And yes, done because there was a market for a translation since some Jews could read Greek but not Hebrew.


I pray all is well with you...


And with you.



.
 

Arsenios

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He doesn't. As I stated, he doesn't use translations at all (especially not the unofficial JEWISH one into Greek)



Yup. One of literally THOUSANDS of translations. And yes, one done by JEWS. And yes, done because there was a market for a translation since some Jews could read Greek but not Hebrew.





And with you.



.
You can go to the Greek Bible in Greece to this day and find a translation of the Original Greek Bible into Demotic Greek...

There you will find from the Lord's Prayer: "Give us this day a loaf of bread."

That is what happened to the Original unpointed Hebrew text of the OT...

It was translated into the pointed Masoretic translation from the Original unpointed Hebrew...

So your professor-pastor is translating from a translation of the original...

The Original was unpointed...

Pointing it creates a translation...

Point it differently and you get a different translation...

However, my Brother Josiah, you have an even greater obstacle...
Because none of your flock except one, the Pastor-scholar,
can translate any of the texts into English -
So your flock is relying now on a Christ-rejecting Masoretic translation...
AS TRANSLATED FOR THEM by your scholar-translator-pastor...
You see, YOU are still relying on your particular Scholastic Translator...
Translating the Masoretic translation of the Original Hebrew Text...
But the good news is that you believe your scholar-authority
is giving you the direct English Translation of the Original...
Which is, admittedly, a false belief...

We overload the texts, thinking we can prove everything with them,
when what is needed is Christian discipling
so that we even CAN approach an understanding of them...


I am no better than your pastor...
I used to do the same...
painstakingly translating the Koine-Greek version into English,
thinking I had a superior product for all to see...

I was equally wrong...

And equally unpersuasive...

And equally so in this very post...

God Bless you on your Way...

A.
 
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Josiah

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However, my Brother Josiah, you have an even greater obstacle...
Because none of your flock except one, the Pastor-scholar,
can translate any of the texts into English -

True. Which is why translations are provided by publishing houses (there have been literally THOUSANDS of translations provided for lay persons). However, publishing houses that provide translations to the marketplace do NOT act as the authoritative, official, formal declaration of what is and is not canonical. No pastor (living in the First or Twenty-First Centuries) is the authoritative, official, formal declarer of what is and is not canonical, no one person speaks definitively and authoritatively for the entirely of Christianity (Roman Catholics perhaps disagreeing), even if that person is Augustine or Ignatius or Martin Luther or Joseph Smith or me or you.

God Bless you on your Way...


... and you.



.
 

pinacled

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Leave the hostility aside for a moment and use your facilities of reason with accuracy.

The septugugu is a farse recorded by the enemy of the jewish people to prove theirdd suppossed dominance over them.

Do you understand?


הָאַ֥יִל אֲשֶׁר־רָאִ֖יתָ בַּ֣עַל הַקְּרָנָ֑יִם מַלְכֵ֖י מָדַ֥י וּפָרָֽס׃

“The two-horned ram that you saw [signifies] the kings of Media and Persia;

וְהַצָּפִ֥יר הַשָּׂעִ֖יר מֶ֣לֶךְ יָוָ֑ן וְהַקֶּ֤רֶן הַגְּדוֹלָה֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר בֵּין־עֵינָ֔יו ה֖וּא הַמֶּ֥לֶךְ הָרִאשֽׁוֹן׃

and the buck, the he-goat—the king of Greece; and the large horn on his forehead, that is the first king.

וְהַ֨נִּשְׁבֶּ֔רֶת וַתַּֽעֲמֹ֥דְנָה אַרְבַּ֖ע תַּחְתֶּ֑יהָ אַרְבַּ֧ע מַלְכֻי֛וֹת מִגּ֥וֹי יַעֲמֹ֖דְנָה וְלֹ֥א בְכֹחֽוֹ׃

One was broken and four came in its stead—that [means]: four kingdoms will arise out of a nation, but without its power.

וּֽבְאַחֲרִית֙ מַלְכוּתָ֔ם כְּהָתֵ֖ם הַפֹּשְׁעִ֑ים יַעֲמֹ֛ד מֶ֥לֶךְ עַז־פָּנִ֖ים וּמֵבִ֥ין חִידֽוֹת׃

When their kingdoms are at an end, when the measure of transgression has been filled, then a king will arise, impudent and versed in intrigue.

וְעָצַ֤ם כֹּחוֹ֙ וְלֹ֣א בְכֹח֔וֹ וְנִפְלָא֥וֹת יַשְׁחִ֖ית וְהִצְלִ֣יחַ וְעָשָׂ֑ה וְהִשְׁחִ֥ית עֲצוּמִ֖ים וְעַם־קְדֹשִֽׁים׃

He will have great strength, but not through his own strength. He will be extraordinarily destructive; he will prosper in what he does, and destroy the mighty and the people of holy ones.

וְעַל־שִׂכְל֗וֹ וְהִצְלִ֤יחַ מִרְמָה֙ בְּיָד֔וֹ וּבִלְבָב֣וֹ יַגְדִּ֔יל וּבְשַׁלְוָ֖ה יַשְׁחִ֣ית רַבִּ֑ים וְעַ֤ל־שַׂר־שָׂרִים֙ יַעֲמֹ֔ד וּבְאֶ֥פֶס יָ֖ד יִשָּׁבֵֽר׃

By his cunning, he will use deceit successfully. He will make great plans, will destroy many, taking them unawares, and will rise up against the chief of chiefs, but will be broken, not by [human] hands.

וּמַרְאֵ֨ה הָעֶ֧רֶב וְהַבֹּ֛קֶר אֲשֶׁ֥ר נֶאֱמַ֖ר אֱמֶ֣ת ה֑וּא וְאַתָּה֙ סְתֹ֣ם הֶֽחָז֔וֹן כִּ֖י לְיָמִ֥ים רַבִּֽים׃

What was said in the vision about evenings and mornings is true. Now you keep the vision a secret, for it pertains to far-off days.”]

The septugugu is the production of deceit used by the greek ruler afore mentioned by gabriel.
 
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Arsenios

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none of your flock except one, the Pastor-scholar,
can translate any of the texts into English -

Josiah said:

Thank-you...

So if all translations are translations of translations, your pastor is not translating the original, but only a translation, and you are relying on his scholarship, and when he dies, it's over until you can find a new leader...

Orthodoxy, on the other hand, is the Scripture-custodian Church of Holy Writ for 2000 years, and has a 2000 year history of its interpretation... For us, the translation is not normally the problem, but its interpretation can be... For we are those sent forth to DISCIPLE all the Nations, and for us, this discipling is the epistemological prerequisite of understanding the meaning of what is written... For it is this discipling that leads us to God, which is why Christ commanded His Apostles to disciple all the nations... It is not about a good or more scholarly translation of an "Original"... It is about DOING the Word of God's commanded discipling...

A.
 

pinacled

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הָאַ֥יִל אֲשֶׁר־רָאִ֖יתָ בַּ֣עַל הַקְּרָנָ֑יִם מַלְכֵ֖י מָדַ֥י וּפָרָֽס׃

“The two-horned ram that you saw [signifies] the kings of Media and Persia;

וְהַצָּפִ֥יר הַשָּׂעִ֖יר מֶ֣לֶךְ יָוָ֑ן וְהַקֶּ֤רֶן הַגְּדוֹלָה֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר בֵּין־עֵינָ֔יו ה֖וּא הַמֶּ֥לֶךְ הָרִאשֽׁוֹן׃

and the buck, the he-goat—the king of Greece; and the large horn on his forehead, that is the first king.

וְהַ֨נִּשְׁבֶּ֔רֶת וַתַּֽעֲמֹ֥דְנָה אַרְבַּ֖ע תַּחְתֶּ֑יהָ אַרְבַּ֧ע מַלְכֻי֛וֹת מִגּ֥וֹי יַעֲמֹ֖דְנָה וְלֹ֥א בְכֹחֽוֹ׃

One was broken and four came in its stead—that [means]: four kingdoms will arise out of a nation, but without its power.

וּֽבְאַחֲרִית֙ מַלְכוּתָ֔ם כְּהָתֵ֖ם הַפֹּשְׁעִ֑ים יַעֲמֹ֛ד מֶ֥לֶךְ עַז־פָּנִ֖ים וּמֵבִ֥ין חִידֽוֹת׃

When their kingdoms are at an end, when the measure of transgression has been filled, then a king will arise, impudent and versed in intrigue.

וְעָצַ֤ם כֹּחוֹ֙ וְלֹ֣א בְכֹח֔וֹ וְנִפְלָא֥וֹת יַשְׁחִ֖ית וְהִצְלִ֣יחַ וְעָשָׂ֑ה וְהִשְׁחִ֥ית עֲצוּמִ֖ים וְעַם־קְדֹשִֽׁים׃

He will have great strength, but not through his own strength. He will be extraordinarily destructive; he will prosper in what he does, and destroy the mighty and the people of holy ones.

וְעַל־שִׂכְל֗וֹ וְהִצְלִ֤יחַ מִרְמָה֙ בְּיָד֔וֹ וּבִלְבָב֣וֹ יַגְדִּ֔יל וּבְשַׁלְוָ֖ה יַשְׁחִ֣ית רַבִּ֑ים וְעַ֤ל־שַׂר־שָׂרִים֙ יַעֲמֹ֔ד וּבְאֶ֥פֶס יָ֖ד יִשָּׁבֵֽר׃

By his cunning, he will use deceit successfully. He will make great plans, will destroy many, taking them unawares, and will rise up against the chief of chiefs, but will be broken, not by [human] hands.

וּמַרְאֵ֨ה הָעֶ֧רֶב וְהַבֹּ֛קֶר אֲשֶׁ֥ר נֶאֱמַ֖ר אֱמֶ֣ת ה֑וּא וְאַתָּה֙ סְתֹ֣ם הֶֽחָז֔וֹן כִּ֖י לְיָמִ֥ים רַבִּֽים׃

What was said in the vision about evenings and mornings is true. Now you keep the vision a secret, for it pertains to far-off days.”]

The septugugu is the production of deceit used by the greek ruler afore mentioned by gabriel.
Time being fluid

 

pinacled

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...seem to point to the Septuagint as a more accurate and proper vorlage of an earlier original Hebrew text in opposition to the common Masoretic Hebrew text used today in most modern bibles..

Knowing that the council of Jamnia in 90 AD was the first ever assembly and establishment in regards to Hebrew canon (for unknown reasons by unbelieving Jewish high priests) leads me to believe without a doubt that God intended a translation for the gentiles and Jews of that era, meaning that the "canon" was settled by God through the Septuagint and every book it included -as inspired and not to be neglected.

How does one counter these facts to the contrary?

Why do protestants follow the tradition of the RCC with Jerome's advice from the unbelieving Jews he studied under -that certain books in the Septuagint were neither of any importance nor were they translated correctly..?
Protestants aside a person can find many a controversy concerning 72 virgins.
The number game has been used to divide by sorcerers of history.

Perhaps muslims are rewarded with 72 greeks that speak hebrew.
 
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Josiah

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Thank-you...

So if all translations


My pastor doesn't use a translation. No pastor or scholar or theologian does.

Translations are provided (typically by some publishing house) in order to sell books to people like me who can't read Hebrew and/or Greek. There are THOUSANDS of 'em. All for laypeople. That some early Christians used them doesn't prove anything accept it seems some early Christians could not easily handle Hebrew. That's it. That's all.



.



 

Andrew

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הָאַ֥יִל אֲשֶׁר־רָאִ֖יתָ בַּ֣עַל הַקְּרָנָ֑יִם מַלְכֵ֖י מָדַ֥י וּפָרָֽס׃

“The two-horned ram that you saw [signifies] the kings of Media and Persia;

וְהַצָּפִ֥יר הַשָּׂעִ֖יר מֶ֣לֶךְ יָוָ֑ן וְהַקֶּ֤רֶן הַגְּדוֹלָה֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר בֵּין־עֵינָ֔יו ה֖וּא הַמֶּ֥לֶךְ הָרִאשֽׁוֹן׃

and the buck, the he-goat—the king of Greece; and the large horn on his forehead, that is the first king.

וְהַ֨נִּשְׁבֶּ֔רֶת וַתַּֽעֲמֹ֥דְנָה אַרְבַּ֖ע תַּחְתֶּ֑יהָ אַרְבַּ֧ע מַלְכֻי֛וֹת מִגּ֥וֹי יַעֲמֹ֖דְנָה וְלֹ֥א בְכֹחֽוֹ׃

One was broken and four came in its stead—that [means]: four kingdoms will arise out of a nation, but without its power.

וּֽבְאַחֲרִית֙ מַלְכוּתָ֔ם כְּהָתֵ֖ם הַפֹּשְׁעִ֑ים יַעֲמֹ֛ד מֶ֥לֶךְ עַז־פָּנִ֖ים וּמֵבִ֥ין חִידֽוֹת׃

When their kingdoms are at an end, when the measure of transgression has been filled, then a king will arise, impudent and versed in intrigue.

וְעָצַ֤ם כֹּחוֹ֙ וְלֹ֣א בְכֹח֔וֹ וְנִפְלָא֥וֹת יַשְׁחִ֖ית וְהִצְלִ֣יחַ וְעָשָׂ֑ה וְהִשְׁחִ֥ית עֲצוּמִ֖ים וְעַם־קְדֹשִֽׁים׃

He will have great strength, but not through his own strength. He will be extraordinarily destructive; he will prosper in what he does, and destroy the mighty and the people of holy ones.

וְעַל־שִׂכְל֗וֹ וְהִצְלִ֤יחַ מִרְמָה֙ בְּיָד֔וֹ וּבִלְבָב֣וֹ יַגְדִּ֔יל וּבְשַׁלְוָ֖ה יַשְׁחִ֣ית רַבִּ֑ים וְעַ֤ל־שַׂר־שָׂרִים֙ יַעֲמֹ֔ד וּבְאֶ֥פֶס יָ֖ד יִשָּׁבֵֽר׃

By his cunning, he will use deceit successfully. He will make great plans, will destroy many, taking them unawares, and will rise up against the chief of chiefs, but will be broken, not by [human] hands.

וּמַרְאֵ֨ה הָעֶ֧רֶב וְהַבֹּ֛קֶר אֲשֶׁ֥ר נֶאֱמַ֖ר אֱמֶ֣ת ה֑וּא וְאַתָּה֙ סְתֹ֣ם הֶֽחָז֔וֹן כִּ֖י לְיָמִ֥ים רַבִּֽים׃

What was said in the vision about evenings and mornings is true. Now you keep the vision a secret, for it pertains to far-off days.”]

The septugugu is the production of deceit used by the greek ruler afore mentioned by gabriel.
This prophecy IS fulfilled in 1rst Maccabees..
Read the first chapter of 1rst Maccabees and get back with me with your thoughts for even Martin Luther proclaimed this book necessary for understanding Daniel 11 and considered it "Sacred Scripture", he used this argument to likewise reject 2nd Maccabees for it contains no fulfillment (except the fact that the Maccabean revolt lead to a Jewish Holiday that Jesus celebrated, but he didnt mention that fact)..
He mis-interpreted "offerings for the dead" in 2nd Maccabees as the source of the dogma of indulgences, making the same mistake the Catholic Church made.
 

Arsenios

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My pastor doesn't use a translation. No pastor or scholar or theologian does.

Much of the NT Greek is a translation from Aramaic... eg The Book of Hebrews

The Masoretic text is a translation of the Original unpointed Jewish Scrolls...

So your pastor is translating a translation of the OT...

A.
 

Andrew

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Much of the NT Greek is a translation from Aramaic... eg The Book of Hebrews

The Masoretic text is a translation of the Original unpointed Jewish Scrolls...

So your pastor is translating a translation of the OT...

A.
Its odd isn't it? that we accept the greek NT in full but it's so difficult for so many to accept the greek that the NT quotes from because "all Jews spoke and wrote Hebrew and not greek" thus only the Hebrew text regardless of when and from who is acceptable. When? Some thousand years after Christ (Masoretic) Who? Unbelieving Jews.

The NT quotes prove that the Greek OT is from an earlier and far more accurate original Hebrew Text than the proto-masoretic and official Masoretic that followed
 

Josiah

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Much of the NT Greek is a translation from Aramaic... eg The Book of Hebrews

So your pastor is translating a translation of the OT...


No one has EVER discovered even one piece of even one manuscript of even one NT book written in Aramaic or Hebrew older than any written in kione Greek, so your claim is entirely baseless.

Having THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of translations from the Hebrew and/or Greek does not prove that ergo any person (even Jesus) declared in a formal and ecumenical way exactly what is and is not Scripture. It has nothing to do with it; nothing at all. And using one of those many THOUSANDS of translations also does not prove that. What it proves is this: Many need or prefer a text in a language they understand to one in the Hebrew or Greek that they don't understand. That's it. That's all.





.
 

Andrew

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No one has EVER discovered even one piece of even one manuscript of even one NT book written in Aramaic or Hebrew older than any written in kione Greek, so your claim is entirely baseless.


.

Yep, wasn't much Hebrew going around except at the Temple or maybe a good handful of Jews in Jerusalem, Paul was even sent to Jerusalem to learn Hebrew.
Considering that the NT aligns more with the Greek as far as quotations go, why would you bypass the greek translation and settle for a Hebrew translation that was clearly meddled with? I am being serious, if the Masoretic is more accurate just because it comes from Hebrew then why is it that when Jesus lays out a scroll and quotes Isaiah and says "and recovery of sight to the blind", not one soul in the synagogue corrected him (since there is no such line in Isaiah)?

Only Time travel could account for "and recovery of sight to the blind" being found in the Greek Septuagint exactly where Jesus said it was.. and even if that's the case it makes Jesus out to be falsifier of scripture and I just can't accept that.

"It is what it is" right? Regardless it doesn't touch the authority of the NT Gospel but it does add to confusion when the Masoretic gets it wrong and the LXX gets it right, there are many examples of these obvious "Hebrew Scribal Errors" in the Masoretic from prophecies to missing lines in verses and even an issue with numbers in some areas.

Blessings brother Josiah
 

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Regardless it doesn't touch the authority of the NT Gospel but it does add to confusion when the Masoretic gets it wrong and the LXX gets it right...
Please, just a question. What you do if\when the opposite is true?
 

Josiah

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Paul was even sent to Jerusalem to learn Hebrew.

Where does the Bible state that?

How does that affirm that someone officially, ecumenically and authoritatively declared what Books are and are not Scripture?


Considering that the NT aligns more with the Greek as far as quotations go


The NT was written in Greek. There was a claim that it was first written in Hebrew and/or Aramaic but nothing has been presented to prove that; we have no Hebrew or Aramaic manuscripts of the NT dating from before we have Greek ones.


, why would you bypass the greek translation and settle for a Hebrew translation


I don't. I use an English translation because I don't know Greek or Hebrew. Do you?

Again, there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of translations of the Bible. All done because there were lay readers who could not easily read Hebrew or Greek but wanted to read the text in a translation they could understand. But no publishing house speak officially, definitively and authoritatively for the church catholic as to what is and is not canonical. Publishing houses publish books (hopefully, that will sell). That's it. That's all.


It is likely some "church fathers" used translations. This likely because they could not understand Hebrew. How does that prove that someone thus officially, formally, ecumenically and authoritatively declared what Books are and are not canonical?




.



 

pinacled

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Where does the Bible state that?

How does that affirm that someone officially, ecumenically and authoritatively declared what Books are and are not Scripture?





The NT was written in Greek. There was a claim that it was first written in Hebrew and/or Aramaic but nothing has been presented to prove that; we have no Hebrew or Aramaic manuscripts of the NT dating from before we have Greek ones.





I don't. I use an English translation because I don't know Greek or Hebrew. Do you?

Again, there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of translations of the Bible. All done because there were lay readers who could not easily read Hebrew or Greek but wanted to read the text in a translation they could understand. But no publishing house speak officially, definitively and authoritatively for the church catholic as to what is and is not canonical. Publishing houses publish books (hopefully, that will sell). That's it. That's all.


It is likely some "church fathers" used translations. This likely because they could not understand Hebrew. How does that prove that someone thus officially, formally, ecumenically and authoritatively declared what Books are and are not canonical?




.
Andrew is arguing english transliterations that have nothing to do with the septugugu or TaNaKh.
The english translations used to convey a message is a weak argument.

I've yet to see Andrews research to show a study of greek to english in comparison to hebrew to english having any distinct difference.

Essentially,
motive to call the hebrew TaNaKh a deducted form devised by lying scribes is at heart anti semitism.

Elevating the greeks in place of hebrew culture is quite obviously a divisive thought.
Its historical fact that greeks were a tribe seeking knowledge to collect information in libraries while denying the power from which such knowledge comes in spirit.
2 Timothy 3:7

"Abstaining from an appearance of evil" , comes to mind.
1 Thessalonians 5:22

If in fact any jewish scribes were ever to lie.
Seems to me it wouldve been while writing a septugugu transliteration.
Something of which is very doubtful.
The 72 number is suspiciously like a marketing scheme of occultation used for centuries by Greco/ Roman conquerors to claim authority and superiority over a nation(s).

But what do I know
 
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Arsenios

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It should also be understood that the Masoretic Text MAY be considered to be more than a translation of the Original OT, in that it was undertaken for the purpose of re-creating that (lost) text in a more modern version of the Hebrew Language... So unlike the LXX, which is a Jewish translation of the Original, the Masoretic Text is actually a re-creation of it in a related but different language... And I think the Jews have a rich tradition of textual commentary establishing the meaning of passages in that text, and that there probably are quite a few that pre-date the first century... (I am no expert on Jewish writings)...

Yet whereas the LXX is a pre-Christian Jewish product accepted by Christ, the Masoretic is a "bad-blood" re-creation of the OT where its re-creation was done with a non-Christian "agenda"... Which goes back to my ever original question: "Why would a Christian ever use such a text for one's OT translation?" Why would such a Christian even consider such a late Hebraic re-creation to be "The Original" when it so clearly is not? The LXX is the Christian AND Jewish text accepted by both parties prior to any issues between Christians and Jews...

Similarly, the Puritan version of the KJV is a biased translation, as is the KJV itself...

So also will the re-creation of the OT into a different but related language be different...

A.
 
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Arsenios

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No one has EVER discovered even one piece of even one manuscript of even one NT book written in Aramaic or Hebrew older than any written in kione Greek, so your claim is entirely baseless.
Paul's Epistle to the Hebrews was written in their language and then rather woodenly translated into Greek, which is the only way to account for its awkward and strained Greek... This is a fairly commonplace understanding of that text... It was the Greek that was to be the language of the Bible, and all knew it then, and Greek it then became, or else was original...

Including the LXX, which also perhaps helped to set the (Grecophillic) tone... eg Greek was the linguistic means to establish the evangelistic means of the propogation of the Gospel in all the nations, because known to them all...

A.
 

pinacled

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It should also be understood that the Masoretic Text MAY be considered to be more than a translation of the Original OT, in that it was undertaken for the purpose of re-creating that (lost) text in a more modern version of the Hebrew Language... So unlike the LXX, which is a Jewish translation of the Original, the Masoretic Text is actually a re-creation of it in a related but different language... And I think the Jews have a rich tradition of textual commentary establishing the meaning of passages in that text, and that there probably are quite a few that pre-date the first century... (I am no expert on Jewish writings)...

Yet whereas the LXX is a pre-Christian Jewish product accepted by Christ, the Masoretic is a "bad-blood" re-creation of the OT where its re-creation was done with a non-Christian "agenda"... Which goes back to my ever original question: "Why would a Christian ever use such a text for one's OT translation?" Why would such a Christian even consider such a late Hebraic re-creation to be "The Original" when it so clearly is not? The LXX is the Christian AND Jewish text accepted by both parties prior to any issues between Christians and Jews...

Similarly, the Puritan version of the KJV is a biased translation, as is the KJV itself...

So also will the re-creation of the OT into a different but related language be different...

A.
Lxx is a roman legion of 70.
A comapany against jews that divides greeks for war
 
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