Are babies sinners?

[MennoSota]

Scripture says that when Adam sinned all his offspring were born in sin:



This says they were all born in death, not sin...

And it says they all sinned...

That their sin was not accounted as sin...

Yet death reigned...

For all sinned...

Yet their sin was not imputed...

Prior to the Law...

A child is not a sinner until he sins...

Do you think a child in his mother's womb is a sinner too?



geo

...because all sinned...
It's right there. Why are you reading around it?

 

[RichWh1]

All who are born into this world are born in sin.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5 - NASB

David recognized his sin and prayed for forgiveness. He had repented and his prayer was heard.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God “ Romans 6:23

If all have sinned, that means that no one is free from the stain of sin.

As in Adam all sin— meaning those born of the seed of Adam have inherited the sin nature.
It is the seed of man that produces the sin nature. Jesus was born of the seed of the woman, making Him free from the sin nature.


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[Arsenios]

Arsenios:

Do you think a child in his mother's womb is a sinner too?

Yes,
because that child is tainted by Adam's sin.
That makes him a sinner.

Let's take up a few sins then:

Is the unborn child a murderer?

Is the just united egg and sperm a child rapist?

Is the three month unborn an adulterer?

A - Is he or she all of these while still in the womb?

B - Is he or she some of these while still in the womb?

C - Is he or she none of these while still in the womb?

You say yes to A?

That a person is guilty of all sins prior to committing them?

I say you are only a sinner after you sin...

You say you are a sinner before you sin...

The un-sinned sinner dog don't hunt...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

All who are born into this world are born in sin.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5 - NASB

David recognized his sin and prayed for forgiveness.

David recognized his mother's sins as a contributing factor to his own sins...

Arsenios

 

[Jason76]

Well, Lammchen noted, babies are "prejudiced against the different" from day one. That's not nice! It's a product of their fallen nature.

However, I don't think babies or even adults are held to "one judgement" for "one life". I mean, that gives people a reasonable chance.

 

[RichWh1]

David recognized his mother's sins as a contributing factor to his own sins...

Arsenios

David also recognized his own sin. All are born with a ‘sin nature ‘ and that means that we are all born in the state of sin. Sin is a state we are in, not an act we commit




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[Arsenios]

David also recognized his own sin. All are born with a ‘sin nature ‘ and that means that we are all born in the state of sin. Sin is a state we are in, not an act we commit

How can one be a sinner is one has not sinned?

Christ inherited our human nature and healed it...

Is Christ a sinner because he took on our fallen human nature?

We become a sinner when we commit a sin...

A.

 

[Arsenios]

David also recognized his own sin.
All are born with a ‘sin nature ‘ and that means that
we are all born in the state of sin.
Sin is a state we are in,
not an act we commit

Christ incarnated into Adam's Fall...

He picked up where Adam failed...

He did not fail...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

How can one be a sinner is one has not sinned?

Let's say I had a cold. I don't but go with me. I have the DISEASE. Now, can I have the disease and not sneeze or cough? Of course.

This is a point Jesus often made. It's not what we DO on the OUTSIDE that determines our nature, it's what's on the INSIDE that tends to come out (in time, anyway).

We become a sinner when we commit a sin...

We commit sin because we are sinful.




.

 

[RichWh1]

Christ incarnated into Adam's Fall...

He picked up where Adam failed...

He did not fail...

Arsenios

I never said that the Son of God failed. I said that all mankind is born in the state of sin, making all mankind sinners by nature.

Christ inherited a human nature, not a sin nature. Sin is passed down through the seed of the man and as Scripture shows us, Jesus was born of the seed of the woman. (Gen 3:15).



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[Arsenios]

This is a point Jesus often made.
It's not what we DO on the OUTSIDE that determines our nature,
it's what's on the INSIDE that tends to come out (in time, anyway).

I do not recall Him saying that... He did command His Apostles to teach all the nations to very carefully DO all that He had commanded them - To observe with exactitude His Commandments... Because the human being is a whole, and you cannot have the outside sinning and the inside holy...

We commit sin because we are sinful.

What then do you say to the disciples who are sinful and not committing sins?

They are sinful yet vigilant against the DOING of sin...

They call themselves sinners for just the reason you gave...

Except that they are engaged in a Great War against sin...

They are not sinning even when greatly put to trial in temptations...

Do you tell them that they are sinning because they are sinful?

Or do their deeds tell you that they are not sinning in spite of being sinful?

What you DO matters, you see...

And God CAN and Does remove the INFIRMITY of sinfulness, in His Own Good Time...

Normally one sin at a time - eg From Glory to Glory...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I never said that the Son of God failed.
I said that all mankind is born in the state of sin,
making all mankind sinners by nature.

Hence human nature is sinful, yes?

What is the basic cause of this sin in human nature?

Paul answers it: Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death (entered) by sin;
so also death passed upon all men,
upon which (death) all have sinned:

What you are not getting is that it is Adam's DEATH that we inherit...
And UPON THIS DEATH, we have all sinned...
BECAUSE OF this death, all have sinned...
WITHOUT this death, we would not be sinning...

No one here seems to even begin to get this passage from Paul...

Christ inherited a human nature, not a sin nature.

Yes, He inherited Adam's Death, upon which all have sinned...

Sin is passed down through the seed of the man and as Scripture shows us,
Jesus was born of the seed of the woman. (Gen 3:15).

The woman was born of the seed of man and woman, and inherited Adam's Death...

Christ inherited this Death from her, and overcame it in His Own Person and Body...

Because He is BOTH God and the Son of Man, remember?


Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

Hence human nature is sinful, yes?

The human nature is sinful yes, if the seed of man produces that nature.
Jesus was born of a virgin without a male seed that is the difference between all mankind and Jesus. No sin nature!

What is the basic cause of this sin in human nature?

Disobedience is the cause of the fallen nature

Paul answers it: Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death (entered) by sin;
so also death passed upon all men,
upon which (death) all have sinned:

Yes and disobedience is sin

What you are not getting is that it is Adam's DEATH that we inherit...
And UPON THIS DEATH, we have all sinned...
BECAUSE OF this death, all have sinned...
WITHOUT this death, we would not be sinning...

No one here seems to even begin to get this passage from Paul...

Are you saying that Jesus has a sin nature because He has a human nature?
WE inherited the body of death! Jesus did NOT!

Yes, He inherited Adam's Death, upon which all have sinned...

Jesus did not inherit the sin nature of Adam! The wages of SIN is death. He took on the form of man to redeem man from the curse of the Law!

The woman was born of the seed of man and woman, and inherited Adam's Death...

Yes Mary inherited the sin nature because she was born of man!
Jesus was not born of man!

Christ inherited this Death from her, and overcame it in His Own Person and Body...

Wrong again! Christ did not inherit the body of death!! He took ON flesh to redeem mankind not himself!









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[atpollard]

Arsenios:

Do you think a child in his mother's womb is a sinner too?



Let's take up a few sins then:

Is the unborn child a murderer?

Is the just united egg and sperm a child rapist?

Is the three month unborn an adulterer?

A - Is he or she all of these while still in the womb?

B - Is he or she some of these while still in the womb?

C - Is he or she none of these while still in the womb?

You say yes to A?

That a person is guilty of all sins prior to committing them?

I say you are only a sinner after you sin...

You say you are a sinner before you sin...

The un-sinned sinner dog don't hunt...

Arsenios

There are only two commands that need to be examined.

1. Does the unborn (and new born) child “LOVE THE LORD [HIS] GOD WITH ALL [HIS] HEART, AND WITH ALL [HIS] SOUL, AND WITH ALL [HIS] STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL [HIS] MIND”?

2. Does the unborn (and new born) child “LOVE [HIS] NEIGHBOR AS [HIMSELF]”?

I cannot speak for the unborn, but from the infants that I have seen the answer is “no”. Empathy and loving God are both not innate.

 

[Arsenios]

There are only two commands that need to be examined.

1. Does the unborn (and new born) child “LOVE THE LORD [HIS] GOD WITH ALL [HIS] HEART, AND WITH ALL [HIS] SOUL, AND WITH ALL [HIS] STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL [HIS] MIND”?

2. Does the unborn (and new born) child “LOVE [HIS] NEIGHBOR AS [HIMSELF]”?

I cannot speak for the unborn, but from the infants that I have seen the answer is “no”. Empathy and loving God are both not innate.

Do you accuse them of being totally stupid because they do not know that 2+3=5?

You sure do not accuse them of being self centered God-haters...

Children are born under the rulership of death - They do not have the Life that Adam lost for them...

They may come to have the Life Christ prepared for them...

sheesh!!

A.

 

[Arsenios]

Christ took on our human nature and healed it in Himself...

He died and arose from the dead and ascended to the Father...

And He trampled down death by His Death on the Cross...

ALL of this in Himself...

That is why we are Baptized INTO Christ...

That is why Christ had John Baptize Him...

That ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS should be fulfilled, remember?

Mat 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him,
Suffer it to be so now:
for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
Then he suffered him.

Christ overcame death only in Himself...
That is why we are Baptized into Christ...
That we too can overcome death in Him...

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Do you accuse them of being totally stupid because they do not know that 2+3=5?

You sure do not accuse them of being self centered God-haters...

Children are born under the rulership of death - They do not have the Life that Adam lost for them...

They may come to have the Life Christ prepared for them...

sheesh!!

A.

So that makes them not holy...making babies sinners. It's either you're holy or you're a sinner? Unless you're Lutheran then you believe that you're simul justus et peccator.

 

[Arsenios]

So that makes them not holy...making babies sinners.

Well then, I guess we can go ahead and not worry about killing them in the womb...

They are sinners even before they have sinned...

You are a baby raping killer before you are born...

And you call this Lutheranism?

It's either you're holy or you're a sinner?

Or you are a sinner in repentance - A penitent...

Unless you're Lutheran then you believe that you're simul justus et peccator.

Look - Runners are those who run...

And singers are those who sing...

And sinners are those who sin...

Until you run you are not a runner...

Until you sing you are not a singer...

And until you sin you are not a sinner...

And all mileages do vary...

Christ took on our human nature and healed it in Himself...

He died and arose from the dead and ascended to the Father...

And He trampled down death by His Death on the Cross...

ALL of this in Himself...

That is why we are Baptized INTO Christ...

That is why Christ had John Baptize Him...

That ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS should be fulfilled, remember?

Mat 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him,
Suffer it to be so now:
for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
Then he suffered him.

Christ overcame death only in Himself...
That is why we are Baptized into Christ...
That we too can overcome death in Him...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

So that makes them not holy...making babies sinners. It's either you're holy or you're a sinner? Unless you're Lutheran then you believe that you're simul justus et peccator.

Perhaps the formula that Luther used that is most famous and most telling at this point is his formula*simul justus et peccator. And if any formula*summarizes and captures the essence of the Reformation view, it is this little formula.*Simul*is the word from which we get the English word simultaneously. Or, it means ‘at the same time.’*Justus*is the Latin word for just or righteous. And you all know what*et*is.*Et*the past tense of the verb ‘to eat.’ Have you et your dinner? No, you know that’s not what that means. You remember in the death scene of Caesar after he’s been stabbed by Brutus he says, “Et tu, Brute?” Then fall Caesar.*And*you too Brutus? It simply means and.*Peccator*means*sinner.

And so with this formula, Luther was saying, in our justification we are one and the same time righteous or just, and sinners. Now if he would say that we are at the same*time*and in the same*relationshipjust and sinners that would be a contradiction in terms. But that’s not what he was saying. He was saying from one perspective, in one sense, we are just. In another sense, from a different perspective, we are sinners; and how he defines that is simple. In and of ourselves, under the analysis of God’s scrutiny, we still have sin; we’re still sinners. But, by imputation and by faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is now transferred to our account, then we are considered just or righteous. This is the very heart of the*gospel.

Will I be judged in order to get into heaven by my righteousness or by the righteousness of Christ? If I had to trust in my righteousness to get into heaven, I would completely and utterly despair of any possibility of ever being redeemed. But when we see that the righteousness that is ours by faith is the perfect righteousness of Christ, then we see how glorious is the good news of the gospel. The good news is simply this, I can be reconciled to God, I can be justified by God not on the basis of what I did, but on the basis of what’s been accomplished for me by*Christ.

But at the heart of the gospel is a double-imputation. My sin is imputed to Jesus. His righteousness is imputed to me. And in this two-fold transaction we see that God, Who does not negotiate sin, Who doesn’t compromise His own integrity with our salvation, but rather punishes sin fully and really after it has been imputed to Jesus, retains His own righteousness, and so He is both just and the justifier, as the apostle tells us here. So my sin goes to Jesus, His righteousness comes to me in the sight of*God.

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/simul-justus-et-peccator/

 

[Josiah]

Perhaps the formula that Luther used that is most famous and most telling at this point is his formula*simul justus et peccator. And if any formula*summarizes and captures the essence of the Reformation view, it is this little formula.*Simul*is the word from which we get the English word simultaneously. Or, it means ‘at the same time.’*Justus*is the Latin word for just or righteous. And you all know what*et*is.*Et*the past tense of the verb ‘to eat.’ Have you et your dinner? No, you know that’s not what that means. You remember in the death scene of Caesar after he’s been stabbed by Brutus he says, “Et tu, Brute?” Then fall Caesar.*And*you too Brutus? It simply means and.*Peccator*means*sinner.

And so with this formula, Luther was saying, in our justification we are one and the same time righteous or just, and sinners. Now if he would say that we are at the same*time*and in the same*relationshipjust and sinners that would be a contradiction in terms. But that’s not what he was saying. He was saying from one perspective, in one sense, we are just. In another sense, from a different perspective, we are sinners; and how he defines that is simple. In and of ourselves, under the analysis of God’s scrutiny, we still have sin; we’re still sinners. But, by imputation and by faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is now transferred to our account, then we are considered just or righteous. This is the very heart of the*gospel.

Will I be judged in order to get into heaven by my righteousness or by the righteousness of Christ? If I had to trust in my righteousness to get into heaven, I would completely and utterly despair of any possibility of ever being redeemed. But when we see that the righteousness that is ours by faith is the perfect righteousness of Christ, then we see how glorious is the good news of the gospel. The good news is simply this, I can be reconciled to God, I can be justified by God not on the basis of what I did, but on the basis of what’s been accomplished for me by*Christ.

But at the heart of the gospel is a double-imputation. My sin is imputed to Jesus. His righteousness is imputed to me. And in this two-fold transaction we see that God, Who does not negotiate sin, Who doesn’t compromise His own integrity with our salvation, but rather punishes sin fully and really after it has been imputed to Jesus, retains His own righteousness, and so He is both just and the justifier, as the apostle tells us here. So my sin goes to Jesus, His righteousness comes to me in the sight of*God.

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/simul-justus-et-peccator/

Thanks for that LUTHERAN response.... Yup, both Law and Gospel are BOTH fully true (simultaneously).


Now, babies would be sinless if they ALWAYS, PERFECTLY "hit the target" of being the moral equal of God.... as holy as God, as perfect as God, as loving as God.... that because it is their NATURE, who they ARE. BTW, it would also mean they would never die ("the result of sin is death" the Bible says regarding humans). Now, there is the INVENTION (entirely unbiblical) that God doesn't give rip about this until they reach some magical age of X (which age God refuses to disclose) but that's different than arguing that they are as holy, perfect, loving and self-sacrificing as is God Himself (sinless), that invention of the Anabaptists is that God doesn't care (isn't Just) until some never-disclosed birthday is celebrated (Anabaptists being quite fixated on mysterious birthdays).