Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?

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Lamb

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MennoSota

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Come on. We ALL KNOW you have not even attempted to list even ONE Scripture and/or even ONE Christian (before that radically synergist Anabaptist) that indicates (water) Baptism is "worthless" and "does nothing" (to quote you), that it is just an inert, ineffectual ritual, that it is just "an outward SYMBOL of an inner personal accomplishment." You haven't even attempted to do that. Everyone knows it. Come on.





I have no need to "spin" ANYTHING. I'm just accepting the words - "as is." I have no need to force the words to "mean" something different than what they do. "No spin zone" on my side. I'm just accepting what the verses say, the words the Holy Spirit put there. Maybe YOU feel a requirement to SPIN them so that the "meaning" is the opposite of the words.... maybe... but I have no such need.



What does SCRIPTURE say?


I can find no Scriptures that state or indicate that Baptism is inert, ineffectual, just a symbolic ritual. IMO, that new Dogma (one of the defining, distictive dogmas of Baptists) is without any Scripture whatsoever. There is not one Scripture that remotely indicates that Baptism does nothing, accomplishes nothing, that it is SO stressed in the NT
and SO important in the Book of Act and placed equal with teaching in the Great Commission because... well... it is meaningless, worthless, not used by God. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support the Anabaptist's invented dogma. But there are several, that when taken together, suggest something quite different. IMO, I'm not sure one can create DOGMA here, but there certainly is a powerful implication that God DOES something via baptism,or at least that this can be a "means of grace" - something God can use to convey His gifts. Let's look at those (hopefully the program here will bring them up for you to read)...


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


I admit no ONE verse above is indisputable or perspicuous, but together there is a strong indication.
And of course we find nothing that indicates that it is a inert, ineffectual, useless ritual; only a symbol.


We need to also consider that Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church gave great importance to this! Jesus places it along side of (and seemingly equal to) teaching in the Great Commission, for example. It seems less likely that it would be regarded as so very critical if it is an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all.




What Did the Early Christians believe?


Again, we find none - NOT ONE Christian prior to that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century who view Baptism as just an inert ritual or symbol, but great things are ascribed to it. NOT EVEN ONE who spoke of baptism as "an outward act of an inner decision." Below is just a tiny sample. Note that the context of each is WATER BAPTISM.


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."


There are countless more. My point here is not the individual things here said, but the unavoidable and universal affirmation that Baptism is not an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual or pure symbol...

Nowhere do we see any sense of it as some "outward ritual indicating an inward decision." Universally, baptism is seen as something God uses to accomplish something.

Not until the late 16th Century.... not until the Anabaptists invented the new dogma of "Baptism Can't Do Anything" did ANY Christian agree with that view or even express it.

The Anbaptist invention is found nowhere in the Bible and nowhere among Christians .... it is a radical new dogma invented out of the blue by the radical Anabaptists in the late 16th Century




.
So, you've got nothing until you exegete the verses and share your interpretation with us.
We stick with scripture. I won't waste my time until you commit to actually looking at every Bible reference you provided and show how they prove your assumption.
 

MennoSota

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Menno stated in post 49 his "proof" about baptism
https://christianityhaven.com/showt...Is-it-Innert-or-Effectual&p=170339#post170339



As we can all see it is a failure to provide any proof that baptism does nothing.
Go and read what I stated about what baptism does.
What it does not do is:
1) Give faith to unrepentant sinners
2) Give the Holy Spirit to a Spiritless soul.
3) Save an unrepentant soul from the damnation of hell.
Those are three things you claim baptism does. There is no scripture that makes that argument, however. There is no scripture that equates baptism with preaching the gospel so that baptism becomes a hit or miss activity by the doer of baptism onto the receptor of baptism.
I eagerly await Josiah's exegesis and interpretation of the verses he has cited.
 

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Go and read what I stated about what baptism does.
What it does not do is:
1) Give faith to unrepentant sinners
2) Give the Holy Spirit to a Spiritless soul.
3) Save an unrepentant soul from the damnation of hell.
Those are three things you claim baptism does. There is no scripture that makes that argument, however. There is no scripture that equates baptism with preaching the gospel so that baptism becomes a hit or miss activity by the doer of baptism onto the receptor of baptism.
I eagerly await Josiah's exegesis and interpretation of the verses he has cited.

You didn't cite any scripture that states that baptism does nothing. But Josiah and I have both posted verses that states that something DOES happen to us...God working in us in baptism. You failed.
 

MennoSota

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You didn't cite any scripture that states that baptism does nothing. But Josiah and I have both posted verses that states that something DOES happen to us...God working in us in baptism. You failed.
I never said baptism does nothing. I said that baptism does not give a person faith. It does not give a person the Holy Spirit. I said there is no mystical event happening in baptism.
I then said that water baptism expresses the union that God established when the Holy Spirit immersed us into Christ. It declares the already happened truth that I died with Christ, was buried with Christ and am now raised up with Christ to sit at the right hand of God.
Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

When we baptize the person who confesses faith and repentance we are celebrating the already accomplished work of the Holy Spirit on that persons behalf.
We are declaring a truth. We state "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" just as Jesus commanded. It is similar to the closing prayer that says "in Jesus name, Amen." We declare to the world and to the community of believers that God has changed this person's life. It is a blessed confirmation.
What baptism is not, is an evangelistic tool used in the hope that it might somehow, by chance, give the unregenerate sinner faith...even though they weren't looking for it and didn't ask for it.
That you and Josiah have equated it with an evangelistic tool for salvation is rather appalling.
 

Josiah

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So, you've got nothing until you exegete the verses and share your interpretation with us.

There's no need to spin them. I'm good with a "no spin zone." I'm good with accepting EXACTLY what is stated, as stated.

YOU may feel the necessity to "spin" verses so that you can claim the words 'mean' something radically different than what they actually state, but I have no such need.




MennoSota said:
We stick with scripture


Problem is, you won't state them.


We are waiting for the words in Scripture that indicate (water) baptism is just an inert, ineffectual, "worthless" (to quote you) ritual; just an "outward symbol of an inner personal accomplishment." And any Christian (or even non-Christian) before that radically synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century (who invented your baptism dogmas) who expressed your view. You may well "stick" with these - but that will accomplish nothing unless you share the words with us.
 

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I never said baptism does nothing. I said that baptism does not give a person faith. It does not give a person the Holy Spirit. I said there is no mystical event happening in baptism.
I then said that water baptism expresses the union that God established when the Holy Spirit immersed us into Christ. It declares the already happened truth that I died with Christ, was buried with Christ and am now raised up with Christ to sit at the right hand of God.
Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

When we baptize the person who confesses faith and repentance we are celebrating the already accomplished work of the Holy Spirit on that persons behalf.
We are declaring a truth. We state "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" just as Jesus commanded. It is similar to the closing prayer that says "in Jesus name, Amen." We declare to the world and to the community of believers that God has changed this person's life. It is a blessed confirmation.
What baptism is not, is an evangelistic tool used in the hope that it might somehow, by chance, give the unregenerate sinner faith...even though they weren't looking for it and didn't ask for it.
That you and Josiah have equated it with an evangelistic tool for salvation is rather appalling.

Let's reword this so you that you can see that Josiah and I will keep standing by what we claim, that you say baptism does nothing. When we say that we mean that you are saying GOD does NOTHING for you when you are baptized. That's correct because you said so above in the quote. You sure do think that you do a lot when getting baptized, but nothing happens to you by God.

So, you have no verses that state that God doesn't do anything in your baptism. Are we safe to say that? That's what this thread is about really. Josiah and I say God does something. You say God does nothing.
 

MennoSota

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There's no need to spin them. I'm good with a "no spin zone." I'm good with accepting EXACTLY what is stated, as stated.

YOU may feel the necessity to "spin" verses so that you can claim the words 'mean' something radically different than what they actually state, but I have no such need.







Problem is, you won't state them.


We are waiting for the words in Scripture that indicate (water) baptism is just an inert, ineffectual, "worthless" (to quote you) ritual; just an "outward symbol of an inner personal accomplishment." And any Christian (or even non-Christian) before that radically synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century (who invented your baptism dogmas) who expressed your view. You may well "stick" with these - but that will accomplish nothing unless you share the words with us.
Provide your exegesis of the verses you cited or accept your claim is illegitimate.
 

MennoSota

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Let's reword this so you that you can see that Josiah and I will keep standing by what we claim, that you say baptism does nothing. When we say that we mean that you are saying GOD does NOTHING for you when you are baptized. That's correct because you said so above in the quote. You sure do think that you do a lot when getting baptized, but nothing happens to you by God.

So, you have no verses that state that God doesn't do anything in your baptism. Are we safe to say that? That's what this thread is about really. Josiah and I say God does something. You say God does nothing.
I never said baptism does nothing. I said that baptism does not give a person faith. It does not give a person the Holy Spirit. I said there is no mystical event happening in baptism.
I then said that water baptism expresses the union that God established when the Holy Spirit immersed us into Christ. It declares the already happened truth that I died with Christ, was buried with Christ and am now raised up with Christ to sit at the right hand of God.
Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

When we baptize the person who confesses faith and repentance we are celebrating the already accomplished work of the Holy Spirit on that persons behalf.
We are declaring a truth. We state "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" just as Jesus commanded. It is similar to the closing prayer that says "in Jesus name, Amen." We declare to the world and to the community of believers that God has changed this person's life. It is a blessed confirmation.
What baptism is not, is an evangelistic tool used in the hope that it might somehow, by chance, give the unregenerate sinner faith...even though they weren't looking for it and didn't ask for it.
That you and Josiah have equated it with an evangelistic tool for salvation is rather appalling.
 

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I never said baptism does nothing. I said that baptism does not give a person faith. It does not give a person the Holy Spirit. I said there is no mystical event happening in baptism.
I then said that water baptism expresses the union that God established when the Holy Spirit immersed us into Christ. It declares the already happened truth that I died with Christ, was buried with Christ and am now raised up with Christ to sit at the right hand of God.
Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

When we baptize the person who confesses faith and repentance we are celebrating the already accomplished work of the Holy Spirit on that persons behalf.
We are declaring a truth. We state "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" just as Jesus commanded. It is similar to the closing prayer that says "in Jesus name, Amen." We declare to the world and to the community of believers that God has changed this person's life. It is a blessed confirmation.
What baptism is not, is an evangelistic tool used in the hope that it might somehow, by chance, give the unregenerate sinner faith...even though they weren't looking for it and didn't ask for it.
That you and Josiah have equated it with an evangelistic tool for salvation is rather appalling.

You're making the same argument over and over but bottom line is you believe God does NOTHING in your baptism. Isn't that correct?
 

MennoSota

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You're making the same argument over and over but bottom line is you believe God does NOTHING in your baptism. Isn't that correct?
No spiritual, mystic giving of the gift of faith. No mystic giving of the Holy Spirit. God already did these things when God adopted us and immersed us into Christ by means of the Holy Spirit.
God does not need water. He commands us to baptize, not to do a mystical thing through the water, but to show he has marked his covenant on the person and for the person to declare his/her submission to the Sovereign King.
If you are looking for me to acknowledge your mysticism of faith and the Holy Spirit coming upon a person by means of water being sprinkled, poured or immersed upon a person, I will not acknowledge such a mysticism. Why? Because the Bible does not teach such a mystic view.
Added to this, both you and Josiah are preaching synctretism, which I find appalling.
 

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No spiritual, mystic giving of the gift of faith. No mystic giving of the Holy Spirit. God already did these things when God adopted us and immersed us into Christ by means of the Holy Spirit.
God does not need water. He commands us to baptize, not to do a mystical thing through the water, but to show he has marked his covenant on the person and for the person to declare his/her submission to the Sovereign King.
If you are looking for me to acknowledge your mysticism of faith and the Holy Spirit coming upon a person by means of water being sprinkled, poured or immersed upon a person, I will not acknowledge such a mysticism. Why? Because the Bible does not teach such a mystic view.
Added to this, both you and Josiah are preaching synctretism, which I find appalling.

In other words, what I stated is correct that you believe God does nothing for you in your baptism. Why is it so difficult for you to just agree with that instead of keeping up an argument for 14 pages?
 

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So for the record, do YOU believe that what you wrote above is true for the baptism of an Orthodox Infant as well as an adult?

Let us therefore, Beloved, peal forth the Bells and Heraldic Trumpets!
And proudly proclaim the answer to your question for the recording studios!


...yes...

It is T.H.E. most important event one will undergo in one's entire life on earth...

Fo in it you become hypostatically conjoined with God...

And I understand that Baptists think it is just a human digression...

For them, perhaps it is...


Arsenios. :)
 
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MennoSota

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In other words, what I stated is correct that you believe God does nothing for you in your baptism. Why is it so difficult for you to just agree with that instead of keeping up an argument for 14 pages?
Nope, but you are doggedly going to deny that the encouragement of confessing to family, friends and community about God's immersion of the believer isn't a blessing from God so you ignore what I say.
On the flip side, there is no scripture that says a person receives faith and the Holy Spirit via baptism so your mystical view is dead in the water (pun intended).
 

atpollard

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In other words, what I stated is correct that you believe God does nothing for you in your baptism. Why is it so difficult for you to just agree with that instead of keeping up an argument for 14 pages?

“Nothing” is too little and “everything” is too much. There are legitimate differences between what a Lutheran and Mennonite (or Baptist) believe “baptism” accomplishes, but this topic is tending towards extremes.

One could ask what partaking the “body and blood” (bread and wine) accomplishes. We would both agree that the person was saved both before and after the sacrament. They had faith both before and after the sacrament. They had the Holy Spirit both before and after the sacrament. Their sins were forgiven both before and after the sacrament. Yet neither a Lutheran, Mennonite or Baptist would argue that the Church gathering together to take the “body and blood” was “NOTHING”, that it was pointless and serves no purpose. We might disagree about the details of exactly what it is and what it does accomplish, but we agree that it is not “nothing”.

Baptism is the same way. We disagree on what it IS, but neither side believes that it is “NOTHING”. Hence the lack of a champion willing to take up the gauntlet from the OP and prove from scripture that Baptism is “nothing”.

PS. Only half of those 14 pages are MennoSota repeating the same argument over and over ... the other half are Josiah repeating the same argument over and over. It might be amusing to see how short this topic would be if we edited out all of the duplicate posts. :)
 

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Let us therefore, Beloved, peal forth the Bells and Heraldic Trumpets!
And proudly proclaim the answer to your question for the recording studios!


...yes...

It is T.H.E. most important event one will undergo in one's entire life on earth...

Fo in it you become hypostatically conjoined with God...

And I understand that Baptists think it is just a human digression...

For them, perhaps it is...


Arsenios. :)
Can, like Josiah and Lammchen state, the baptized one become dis-joined, have the union removed so that baptism becomes null and void because their own willful rejection is more powerful than the hypostatic union you promote?
 

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Nope, but you are doggedly going to deny that the encouragement of confessing to family, friends and community about God's immersion of the believer isn't a blessing from God so you ignore what I say.
On the flip side, there is no scripture that says a person receives faith and the Holy Spirit via baptism so your mystical view is dead in the water (pun intended).

That's your answer then? That God gives you a blessing in your baptism so that you are an encouragement of your confession to your family, friends and community? Why does it take you 14 pages to give ONE SIMPLE ANSWER????
 

MennoSota

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That's your answer then? That God gives you a blessing in your baptism so that you are an encouragement of your confession to your family, friends and community? Why does it take you 14 pages to give ONE SIMPLE ANSWER????
Because the OP asks if baptism performs a saving grace and the answer is...no. One does not receive the gift of faith and the Holy Spirit by means of baptism.
 

Josiah

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Because the OP asks if baptism performs a saving grace and the answer is...no. One does not receive the gift of faith and the Holy Spirit by means of baptism.


I see the problem: you never read the title or opening post, you never read the question we are to discuss. But of course, that may be intentional. Probably is. You simply desire to avoid substantiating a constant claim of yours, a fundamental dogma of Anbaptists/Baptists (including the Reformed variety) - that (water) baptism is inert, ineffectual, "worthless" (to quote you), "does nothing" (to quote you), that it is but "an outward SYMBOL of a previous, inner, personal accomplishment" (to give the Baptist/Anabaptist spin). Perhaps you just need to evade the whole subject here: I gave Scriptures and quotes that disagree with you (and thus you must ignore them) and you refuse to honor the request to give your list of Scriptures and quotes that support the Baptist dogma (because you have none).




Can, like Josiah and Lammchen state, the baptized one become dis-joined, have the union removed so that baptism becomes null and void because their own willful rejection is more powerful than the hypostatic union you promote?


Don't impose the very, very rare dogma of a tiny few radical Calvinists (and that only for the past nearly 500 years) of "ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved" upon those who reject this horrible invention. If you want to discuss whether justification has nothing to do with faith, that's a valid discussion (and a fundamental difference between Calvinists and the rest of Christianity) but it's not THIS discussion. Let me use this illustration: When my son was born in the USA, he was granted US citizenship with all the blessings thereof, it was just GIVEN to him (as a free gift). Now, can he repudiate that and become a Cuban citizen? Sure. Does that prove that ergo it is impossible for a country to simply GIVE it? No. I was GIVEN physical life (I'd claim roughly 9 months before my birth), does that mean it's impossible for me to die? Or even to commit suicide? Nope. Calvinists LOVE to boast of their wonderful, amazing, profound, perfect LOGIC and REASON but we often see it quite lacking.




.
 
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I see the problem: you never read the title or opening post, you never read the question we are to discuss. But of course, that may be intentional. Probably is. You simply desire to avoid substantiating a constant claim of yours, a fundamental dogma of Anbaptists/Baptists (including the Reformed variety) - that (water) baptism is inert, ineffectual, "worthless" (to quote you), "does nothing" (to quote you), that it is but "an outward SYMBOL of a previous, inner, personal accomplishment" (to give the Baptist/Anabaptist spin). Perhaps you just need to evade the whole subject here: I gave Scriptures and quotes that disagree with you (and thus you must ignore them) and you refuse to honor the request to give your list of Scriptures and quotes that support the Baptist dogma (because you have none).







Don't impose the very, very rare dogma of a tiny few radical Calvinists (and that only for the past nearly 500 years) of "ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved" upon those who reject this horrible invention. If you want to discuss whether justification has nothing to do with faith, that's a valid discussion (and a fundamental difference between Calvinists and the rest of Christianity) but it's not THIS discussion. Let me use this illustration: When my son was born in the USA, he was granted US citizenship with all the blessings thereof, it was just GIVEN to him (as a free gift). Now, can he repudiate that and become a Cuban citizen? Sure. Does that prove that ergo it is impossible for a country to simply GIVE it? No. I was GIVEN physical life (I'd claim roughly 9 months before my birth), does that mean it's impossible for me to die? Or even to commit suicide? Nope. Calvinists LOVE to boast of their wonderful, amazing, profound, perfect LOGIC and REASON but we often see it quite lacking.




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[Staff Edit]
Just provide scripture, interpret it in light of the topic [Staff Edit]
 
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