All About Faith

[Josiah]

Maybe we should do a thread on what Salvation in Christ IS

Valid. And we've done that.

It's why I begin every discussion related to that with a disclosure. Note the very opening sentence in the following OP from me...

{Note: When "salvation" is used below, I'm speaking of "born again" of "regeneration" of the COMING of spiritual life, faith and the Holy Spirit (Justification in the narrow sense), of "initial grace." Yes, Christians are to grow and mature and become Christ like but th is what Christians do, not how the dead initially receive faith, life, the Holy Spirit]



Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?"


The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.


Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.


You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.



WHO is the SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror.




Good Friday/Easter is the best time of all to examine our heart, our soul, our faith on this..... THE most important question in the universe, in eternity.




- Josiah

Arsenios,


READ the whole post.... in light of the first sentence, the "NOTE."

I realize the word "salvation" CAN be used in a broader sense (both in theology and in the Bible itself), but that's not how Protestant theology tends to use the term, both Luther AND the RCC were extremely careful, uber-clear in how each meant it so that there would be no misunderstandings, and it is critical to keep clear that Jesus is the sole and effectual instrument in justification (narrow) BUT that such is NOT (in any sense) the end of soteriology; that INCLUDES all that is done because justification has been done. We are not saved just so we can go to heaven, we are saved to do good works, to be Christ-like, to love others as we HAVE FIRST BEEN loved. And yes, Lutherans agreed with Catholics, we can "wreck" that justification and loose it.

I have gathered from my Greek Orthodox friend and from two Greek Orthodox priest with whom I have opportunities to discuss all this, this is "undeveloped" in the East and the focus (SO powerful in the West) on the BECOMING, the initial grace, justification in the narrow sense, is so undeveloped in the East that one Orthodox priest told me "we have no doctrine on that." Understood. But as the RCC stated, it IS the issue that it chose to split itself over, NOT discipleship (Sanctification in narrow sense) - the becoming part - because we agree on that. That you are "in the dark" doesn't surprise me; this it seems is pretty much off the radar, so to speak, of the East. In part, I suspect, because the East has a whole other idea of "the Fall", essentially denies original sin and thus total depravity. If there's not much lost, there's not much to finding perhaps. But I realize, this is a western "thing." Very much unlike YOU, typically the Orthodox stay out of this whole discussion.




.

.

 

[Andrew]

Faith is what drives obedience, a Faithless man can not obey

 

[Arsenios]

I have gathered from my Greek Orthodox friend and from two Greek Orthodox priest with whom I have opportunities to discuss all this,
this is "undeveloped" in the East and the focus (SO powerful in the West) on the BECOMING, the initial grace, justification in the narrow sense,
is so undeveloped in the East that one Orthodox priest told me "we have no doctrine on that." Understood. But as the RCC stated, it IS the issue that it chose to split itself over, NOT discipleship (Sanctification in narrow sense) - the becoming part - because we agree on that. That you are "in the dark" doesn't surprise me; this it seems is pretty much off the radar, so to speak, of the East. In part, I suspect, because the East has a whole other idea of "the Fall", essentially denies original sin and thus total depravity. If there's not much lost, there's not much to finding perhaps. But I realize, this is a western "thing." Very much unlike YOU, typically the Orthodox stay out of this whole discussion.

The issues you raise that place Justification at the beginning of one's spiritual journey is off the radar in the EOC for good reason...

We place one's whole life as the beginning, even for atheists...

And the beginning of Christian life as the Call to Repentance, which you deny...

So you and I have nothing to discuss in this matter, because we are in different universes of discourse...

You begin with regeneration...

You deny the regeneration of Baptism...

We begin with God's call to repentance...

You require some kind of (private spiritual) regeneration in order to begin turning away from one's sins...

And you call that private spiritual even Justification by God...

In our eyes, what you regard as regeneration/justification...

Is but the Call of God unto repentance...

With Justification to follow in Baptism...

It is a big chasm, you see...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Faith is what drives obedience, a Faithless man can not obey

That is true - Who COULD he obey??

Yet there are but two masters in this fallen life...

One is the master of death... Satan and his demons...

The other is the Giver of Life - Christ and His Angels...

So one is obeying one's body unto death, for all bodies die...

The other is obeying what is good and true, for these are eternal...

As an atheist I threw away a whole life for the sake of truth and goodness...

I had no idea I was in the service of God all that time...

And about to die, I encountered God...

"A heart that is humbled and broken God will not despise..."

So we are obedient to one or the other, because they are the only two we CAN be in obedience to...

And most of us are pretty mixed bags of obedience...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

READ the whole post.... in light of the first sentence, the "NOTE."

Sorry - I am burned out on your cut and pastes...

I am tired of your "dead corpses can't repent till they're regenerated" repeated iterations...

It is a discussion I am not willing to have with you...

Cut and paste with no engagement with doctrinaire philosophical absolutes is not interesting or worthwhile to me...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

The issues you raise that place Justification at the beginning of one's spiritual journey is off the radar in the EOC for good reason...

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] wrote that the Catholic Church has a theory about Justification in what he calls the narrow sense but the truth is that the Catholic Church explicitly denies the doctrine of Martin Luther about justification having any such narrow sense. The Catholic Church rightly affirms that justification is God's gift which is a process as well as a work of grace in the soul. That work of grace in the soul is the process of being made just rather than, as Martin Luther erroneously says, being declared righteous as a legal fiat entirely apart from any works of any kind that human beings do even works of grace worked by God in the souls of the faithful. It is not completed in this life for most people and for most it is perfected only in the presence of God in heaven. So when you affirm that no such doctrine exists in the Eastern Orthodox Churches I am gladdened because no such doctrine is affirmed in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in communion with the bishops of the see of Rome.

We place one's whole life as the beginning, even for atheists...

And the beginning of Christian life as the Call to Repentance, which you deny...

So you and I have nothing to discuss in this matter, because we are in different universes of discourse...

You begin with regeneration...

You deny the regeneration of Baptism...

We begin with God's call to repentance...

You require some kind of (private spiritual) regeneration in order to begin turning away from one's sins...

And you call that private spiritual even[t] Justification by God...

In our eyes, what you regard as regeneration/justification...

Is but the Call of God unto repentance...

With Justification to follow in Baptism...

It is a big chasm, you see...


Arsenios

Editorial note: I added the letter t in square brackets [t] because I think that Arsenios intended even to be event.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Faith is what drives obedience, a Faithless man can not obey

A faithless man can obey God's powerful words and then come to have faith. See John 7:17.

Just think about it more...

A person who wants to find out if what Jesus says is really from God or not, so they start doing what Jesus says...

They humble themselves; they repent of their sins; they forgive everyone who has sinned against them...

They call on Jesus to help them.

How can one not have entered after that?

How can one have entered before that?

 

[YourTruthGod]

The issues you raise that place Justification at the beginning of one's spiritual journey is off the radar in the EOC for good reason...

We place one's whole life as the beginning, even for atheists...

And the beginning of Christian life as the Call to Repentance, which you deny...

So you and I have nothing to discuss in this matter, because we are in different universes of discourse...

You begin with regeneration...

You deny the regeneration of Baptism...

We begin with God's call to repentance...

You require some kind of (private spiritual) regeneration in order to begin turning away from one's sins...

And you call that private spiritual even Justification by God...

In our eyes, what you regard as regeneration/justification...

Is but the Call of God unto repentance...

With Justification to follow in Baptism...

It is a big chasm, you see...


Arsenios

Arsenios, my friend. What you write is beautiful, and true, but there is something not quite right.

Were you a convert to your religion when you were a grown man?

Maybe that is where the rub is, for there are those in your church who have been baptized with water in infancy.

Now do you see your churches dilemma?

Faith and the obedience that is supposed to follow, is the obedience of repentance of sins, and it is a work that makes our faith alive; however, your church, when baptizing infants, destroy that truth.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=60]MoreCoffee[/MENTION] [MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION]

Josiah wrote that the Catholic Church has a theory about Justification in what he calls the narrow sense

No.

What I've written is that the Catholic Church has nearly every position on justification imaginable, it is a topic about which it has completely confused itself (and thus its docilic members). IMO, it is quite possible that many Catholics are right and that the RCC and Lutherans are actually very close on this - more a case of language and emphasis than disagreement, but personally I'm not sure about that. It's hard to say, so confused is the RCC's official positions.

I have also written that some Catholics (including one who is a strong Catholic apologist and principle of a Catholic high school) that since Vatican II, many Catholic theologians are speaking of "initial grace" and that this the same as what Protestants tend to refer to as "Justification" (in the sense of BECOMING born again). She shared with me that it seems the RCC has come to the Lutheran position, but it simply chooses to call this "initial grace" (and frame it strongly with Baptism) in order to avoid calling it justification and thus violating the Council of Trent. Are these Catholics correct on this? As I've written, I don't know. Because in their denomination, the denomination can't be wrong in these matters, this always places the denomination in a pickle when it realizes it has been wrong; somehow it has to embrace the truth while not seeming to proclaim it previously was wrong. This could be such a case, but again, I don't know. I only know that now we find Catholics speaking of "INITIAL grace" and it sure sounds like what Luther taught.


I have also written that the RCC itself declared that Luther's view on this (John 3:16) is heresy and so much so that it choose to split itself (again) over this. Without a doubt, there were other issues in the Reformation (PERSONALLY, I'd argue the differences in ecclesiology and epistemology were much bigger) but the RCC declared it was his view on justification ("initial grace" ?) that was SO heretical as to require this split, THAT was the "breaking" issue. It is what began the Reformation. And I've written what my several books on this have stressed: there was no misunderstanding, Luther when to extreme lengths to be sure he was not misunderstood and that the RCC understood there was no disagreement over discipleship/sanctification/christian life/BECOMING Christ-like. Luther also stressed his literal agreement with past Councils on this, particularly the condemnations of Pelagianism (which was being proclaimed by the indulgence sellers in Germany - the cause of the Reformation). The RCC chose to defend the theology of those indulgence sellers (to the shock of Luther). But SOME modern Catholics TRY to argue the RCC just misunderstood and really there was no disagreement (the Joint Declaration a few years ago flowed from these several Catholics and Lutherans) but I've not read one book on Luther or the Reformation that remotely supports that; the RCC MAY perhaps agree NOW with Luther but it didn't 500 years ago, the RCC understood what Luther was saying (it's found in John 3:16).


My Greek Orthodox friend AND also a Greek Othodox priest both have told me that the EOC has no position on this at all. "This is a Western debate" the priest told me. "A fight between Protestants and Catholics" he said. It seems the EOC simply has a different soteriology, flowing (I suspect) from a very different concept of the Fall.


In any case, Arsenios suggested we explain what we mean as we use terms, and I showed him that I do. Unlike most. Of course, the post was ignored. That it was ignored by Arsenios is not surprising (again, "This is a Western debate") but of course it's ignored by MoreCoffee, too (except to post, "Haven't you brought this up before?") Yes, it was brought up against Pelagius and ever since to those who share his perspective.

It is a discussion I am not willing to have with you...

Really? You've not been willing so far. But again, I've been told this is "off the radar" of the EOC, the East simply has no view here, so I'm not sure what view you'd share. You could attempt to understand the anti-Pelagian view, if you choose. But as I understand it, Pelagius was never condemned much in the East. Furthermore, the East simply as a very different anthropology flowing from a different view of the Fall and of sin. We "start" at a very different point.

IF you want to understand the monergistic, anti-Pelagian, generally Protestant position, read the post I shared with you. And if not, don't. But again, I've been told "This is not our fight, this is a debate between Catholics and Protestants" (Indeed, the very issue the RCC insisted is the cause of the split). But you may be unaware that a few years ago, some Catholics and Lutherans published "A Joint Declaration on Justification" in which they both argued that the Reformation was primarily a miscommunication. I don't agree, but that seems to be a widespread view among Catholic scholars, the Declaration was very widely praised in the RCC (although not so much in Lutheranism). The EOC wasn't involved because it wasn't involved in the Reformation and evidently has no stance on this, it simply has a different soteriology than is found in the West (because it has a different anthropology).

Again, you said it would be good if we define WHAT we're talking about. I showed you that I did. I'm not sure anyone else here does.




A blessed Easter season...



- Josiah



.

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios, my friend. What you write is beautiful, and true, but there is something not quite right.

Were you a convert to your religion when you were a grown man?

Maybe that is where the rub is, for there are those in your church who have been baptized with water in infancy.

Now do you see your churches dilemma?

Faith and the obedience that is supposed to follow, is the obedience of repentance of sins, and it is a work that makes our faith alive; however, your church, when baptizing infants, destroy that truth.

I entered the Church as a 57 year old adult...

Children are entered by their parents...

Who take on the role of their repentance in rearing them in the Faith...

We Baptize them into Christ at 40 days...

"Suffer the little Children to come unto Me..."

A potentially great boon...

We do not keep our children outside of the Kingdom of Heaven...

We welcome them into Christ very early...

And their earliest memories are the Services of the Church...

They are full Communicants...

We do not shove them off into Sunday school while the adults attend the sermon...


Arsenios

 

[YourTruthGod]

I entered the Church as a 57 year old adult...

Children are entered by their parents...

Who take on the role of their repentance in rearing them in the Faith...

We Baptize them into Christ at 40 days...

"Suffer the little Children to come unto Me..."

A potentially great boon...

We do not keep our children outside of the Kingdom of Heaven...

We welcome them into Christ very early...

And their earliest memories are the Services of the Church...

They are full Communicants...

We do not shove them off into Sunday school while the adults attend the sermon...


Arsenios

You preach obedience to receive the Holy Spirit but then you seemed to forget that infants in your church are baptized and said to have the Holy Spirit at that time.

That is error.

You know the infants don't repent of their sins.

Jesus didn't tell his disciples to water baptize the children that were brought to him.

 

[Arsenios]

You preach obedience to receive the Holy Spirit but then you seemed to forget that infants in your church are baptized and said to have the Holy Spirit at that time.

They have the Seal of the Holy Spirit given them in Baptism...

They are a New Creation in Christ...

They have the repentance of obedience to their parents...

They are full Communicants of the Body and Blood of our Lord...

That is error.

You are not saying that Children cannot have the Holy Spirit, are you??

You know the infants don't repent of their sins.

They have stages of development, physical, moral and Spiritual...

Jesus didn't tell his disciples to water baptize the children that were brought to him.

If He did, it is not recorded in the Bible...

Yet the Apostles baptized households...

And it never says: "Households except for the children..."

And the Church Baptized infants from the beginnings...

To ADD infant Baptism that had been forbidden would have been a huge and recorded Ekklesiological matter...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

You preach obedience to receive the Holy Spirit but then you seemed to forget that infants in your church are baptized and said to have the Holy Spirit at that time.

That is error.

You know the infants don't repent of their sins.

Infants have no personal sins to repent of because they have no capacity to deliberately sin and when very young have no physical ability to materially sin. Their's is a life of faith appropriate to their abilities at their age and they learn both what sin is and how to sin as well as what repentance is and how to repent as they mature. Slowly and surely they learn both what is good and what is bad through example and through human nature as well as by experience and they also learn what consequences come from doing good and from doing bad. Their parents and guardians in Christ teach them these things. Thus they exercise faith appropriate to their gifts and abilities which are given to them by God in the context of their family and the covenant community of faith which is the Church. So at every stage of their development children from their infancy up to the age of accountability learn both what is good and what is not and also they learn to repent of what is not good in their conduct and thinking. This is as it is intended to be by God.

Jesus didn't tell his disciples to water baptize the children that were brought to him.

Your choice of words indicates that you are Baptist like in your beliefs about baptism and so expect baptism to be regarded as symbolic, administered after the age of accountability and only upon a profession of faith in Jesus Christ. That is the tradition to which you adhere. It is not what God teaches in the holy scriptures because in the holy scriptures God teaches that children are as much a part of the body of Christ as adults and are as much a part of the covenant community of faith as any adult. Children exercise faith and repentance as well as do good works according to their abilities which are always appropriate to their age and maturity. This is where Baptist beliefs are in error because they reject the Covenant community as nurturer of faith and administrator of sacraments to all who are in the body of Christ regardless of their age. Baptist ecclesiology is fundamentally flawed because it treats each person as an individual and only as an individual with every gift from God depending on individual acts, beliefs, and spiritual condition when in fact every good gift that comes from God is given to the covenant community of faith first and foremost and then by means of the community is distributed as the Holy Spirit directs among the members according to their roles and abilities in the body of Christ. By rejecting this fundamental lesson of Christ and the apostles as it is taught in the holy scriptures Baptist and Baptist-like groups live a diminished life of faith because to the extend that they reject the lessons about the nature of the covenant community of faith they reject gifts and graces from God. This is why Catholic teaching refers to such groups as possessing Truth but not possessing the fullness of the Truth that Jesus Christ revealed to his Church.

 

[YourTruthGod]

They have the Seal of the Holy Spirit given them in Baptism...

They are a New Creation in Christ...

They have the repentance of obedience to their parents...

They are full Communicants of the Body and Blood of our Lord...

That is a made up belief and proves you go against obeying Jesus to get saved.

You are not saying that Children cannot have the Holy Spirit, are you??

The children have angels until they are older.
No one receives the Holy Spirit without BELIEVING AND REPENTING OF SINS.
Infants cannot believe and repent of sins.

They have stages of development, physical, moral and Spiritual...

You know infants cannot believe and repent of their sins.

If He did, it is not recorded in the Bible...

It is recorded in the Bible that Jesus did not tell the disciples to baptize the little children who came to him.

Yet the Apostles baptized households...

Now be careful not to make anything up.
There are many households without little children; and, even if there were, no little child can repent and be baptized.

And it never says: "Households except for the children..."

And the Church Baptized infants from the beginnings...

Your denomination is not the church of the New Testament times.

To ADD infant Baptism that had been forbidden would have been a huge and recorded Ekklesiological matter...


Arsenios

How does that happen? Think about it.


Galatians 2:11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

Philipians 1:17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.

1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer

2 Timothy 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Acts 20:29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.


And Peter warns us---

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping

 

[YourTruthGod]

Infants have no personal sins to repent of because they have no capacity to deliberately sin and when very young have no physical ability to materially sin. Their's is a life of faith appropriate to their abilities at their age and they learn both what sin is and how to sin as well as what repentance is and how to repent as they mature.

In order to be water baptized, we must repent of sins and believe.

Your choice of words indicates that you are Baptist like in your beliefs about baptism and so expect baptism to be regarded as symbolic, administered after the age of accountability and only upon a profession of faith in Jesus Christ.

I am no such thing. I am a child of God, and I go by the teachings of the Bible.

That is the tradition to which you adhere. It is not what God teaches in the holy scriptures because in the holy scriptures God teaches that children are as much a part of the body of Christ as adults and are as much a part of the covenant community of faith as any adult. Children exercise faith and repentance as well as do good works according to their abilities which are always appropriate to their age and maturity. This is where Baptist beliefs are in error because they reject the Covenant community as nurturer of faith and administrator of sacraments to all who are in the body of Christ regardless of their age. Baptist ecclesiology is fundamentally flawed because it treats each person as an individual and only as an individual with every gift from God depending on individual acts, beliefs, and spiritual condition when in fact every good gift that comes from God is given to the covenant community of faith first and foremost and then by means of the community is distributed as the Holy Spirit directs among the members according to their roles and abilities in the body of Christ. By rejecting this fundamental lesson of Christ and the apostles as it is taught in the holy scriptures Baptist and Baptist-like groups live a diminished life of faith because to the extend that they reject the lessons about the nature of the covenant community of faith they reject gifts and graces from God. This is why Catholic teaching refers to such groups as possessing Truth but not possessing the fullness of the Truth that Jesus Christ revealed to his Church.

Your denomination hinders people from being saved, and ruins lives.
I will continue to expose the false doctrines.

God does not give the Holy Spirit to those who do not repent and believe.
Because of the false teachings and practices of the Catholic denomination, I grew up believing I was already saved and given the Holy Spirit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In order to be water baptized, we must repent of sins and believe.

Infants have no personal sins to repent of because they have no capacity to deliberately sin and when very young have no physical ability to materially sin. Their's is a life of faith appropriate to their abilities at their age and they learn both what sin is and how to sin as well as what repentance is and how to repent as they mature. Slowly and surely they learn both what is good and what is bad through example and through human nature as well as by experience and they also learn what consequences come from doing good and from doing bad. Their parents and guardians in Christ teach them these things. Thus they exercise faith appropriate to their gifts and abilities which are given to them by God in the context of their family and the covenant community of faith which is the Church. So at every stage of their development children from their infancy up to the age of accountability learn both what is good and what is not and also they learn to repent of what is not good in their conduct and thinking. This is as it is intended to be by God.

I am no such thing. I am a child of God, and I go by the teachings of the Bible.



Your denomination hinders people from being saved, and ruins lives.
I will continue to expose the false doctrines.

God does not give the Holy Spirit to those who do not repent and believe.
Because of the false teachings and practices of the Catholic denomination, I grew up believing I was already saved and given the Holy Spirit.

Your beliefs about baptism lead you to expect baptism to be regarded as symbolic, administered after the age of accountability and only upon a profession of faith in Jesus Christ. That is the tradition to which you adhere. It is not what God teaches in the holy scriptures because in the holy scriptures God teaches that children are as much a part of the body of Christ as adults and are as much a part of the covenant community of faith as any adult.

The truth is that children exercise faith and repentance as well as do good works according to their abilities which are always appropriate to their age and maturity.

This is where your beliefs are in error because you by your words reject the Covenant community as nurturer of faith and administrator of sacraments to all who are in the body of Christ regardless of their age. Your ideas about the nature of the Church are fundamentally flawed because you treats each person as an individual and only as an individual with every gift from God depending on individual acts, beliefs, and spiritual condition.

In fact every good gift that comes from God is given to the covenant community of faith first and foremost and then by means of the community is distributed as the Holy Spirit directs among the members according to their roles and abilities in the body of Christ. By rejecting this fundamental lesson of Christ and the apostles as it is taught in the holy scriptures Baptist and Baptist-like groups live a diminished life of faith because to the extend that they reject the lessons about the nature of the covenant community of faith they reject gifts and graces from God. This is why Catholic teaching refers to such groups as possessing Truth but not possessing the fullness of the Truth that Jesus Christ revealed to his Church.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Infants have no personal sins to repent of because they have no capacity to deliberately sin and when very young have no physical ability to materially sin. Their's is a life of faith appropriate to their abilities at their age and they learn both what sin is and how to sin as well as what repentance is and how to repent as they mature. Slowly and surely they learn both what is good and what is bad through example and through human nature as well as by experience and they also learn what consequences come from doing good and from doing bad. Their parents and guardians in Christ teach them these things. Thus they exercise faith appropriate to their gifts and abilities which are given to them by God in the context of their family and the covenant community of faith which is the Church. So at every stage of their development children from their infancy up to the age of accountability learn both what is good and what is not and also they learn to repent of what is not good in their conduct and thinking. This is as it is intended to be by God.




Your beliefs about baptism lead you to expect baptism to be regarded as symbolic, administered after the age of accountability and only upon a profession of faith in Jesus Christ. That is the tradition to which you adhere. It is not what God teaches in the holy scriptures because in the holy scriptures God teaches that children are as much a part of the body of Christ as adults and are as much a part of the covenant community of faith as any adult.

The truth is that children exercise faith and repentance as well as do good works according to their abilities which are always appropriate to their age and maturity.

This is where your beliefs are in error because you by your words reject the Covenant community as nurturer of faith and administrator of sacraments to all who are in the body of Christ regardless of their age. Your ideas about the nature of the Church are fundamentally flawed because you treats each person as an individual and only as an individual with every gift from God depending on individual acts, beliefs, and spiritual condition.

In fact every good gift that comes from God is given to the covenant community of faith first and foremost and then by means of the community is distributed as the Holy Spirit directs among the members according to their roles and abilities in the body of Christ. By rejecting this fundamental lesson of Christ and the apostles as it is taught in the holy scriptures Baptist and Baptist-like groups live a diminished life of faith because to the extend that they reject the lessons about the nature of the covenant community of faith they reject gifts and graces from God. This is why Catholic teaching refers to such groups as possessing Truth but not possessing the fullness of the Truth that Jesus Christ revealed to his Church.

No one is saved by being given the Holy Spirit when they do not believe and repent.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No one is saved by being given the Holy Spirit when they do not believe and repent.

That is true in a sense; the sense in which it is true is that no one is saved until the last day when the Lord judges everyone. But everyone who is in Christ is saved as long as they remain in him. And infants are baptised into Christ just as adults are and have faith appropriate to their abilities just as adults do and repent according to their abilities just like adults do. But I previously pointed out that Infants have no personal sins to repent of because they have no capacity to deliberately sin and when very young have no physical ability to materially sin.

 

[YourTruthGod]

That is true in a sense; the sense in which it is true is that no one is saved until the last day when the Lord judges everyone. But everyone who is in Christ is saved as long as they remain in him. And infants are baptised into Christ just as adults are and have faith appropriate to their abilities just as adults do and repent according to their abilities just like adults do. But I previously pointed out that Infants have no personal sins to repent of because they have no capacity to deliberately sin and when very young have no physical ability to materially sin.

We can be saved now, and when we die, and when Jesus comes again.

No one is saved unless they believe and repent of their sins.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We can be saved now, and when we die, and when Jesus comes again.

No one is saved unless they believe and repent of their sins.

Do you think all infants that die in infancy go to hell?