PERFECT LOVE

[MoreCoffee]

Judas repented and did to himself what the old law required of those who shed innocent blood.

Why do you believe that?

 

[YourTruthGod]

Why do you believe that?

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


In the old law, a person who sheds innocent blood was to be put to death. The chief priests and elders didn't do to him what the law required, so Judas did it to himself and took his own life.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


In the old law, a person who sheds innocent blood was to be put to death. The chief priests and elders didn't do to him what the law required, so Judas did it to himself and took his own life.

Maybe your translation is inaccurate?

Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, I have sinned by betraying innocent blood. They said, What is that to us? See to it yourself. And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.
(Matthew 27:3-5)

 

[Arsenios]

I go by what Jesus said to him before he betrayed Jesus. And, I go by the scripture that show Judas felt bad about it and repented.

Jesus did indeed see his future...

But do not imitate his "repentance"...

For it led to that terrible future...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I am not sure why you are talking to zecryphon_nomdiv. He can't even figure out that you are the one who said Judas didn't repent, even after I explained it.

He needs the help...

A leg up, I say!!


Arsenios

 

[YourTruthGod]

Jesus did indeed see his future...

But do not imitate his "repentance"...

For it led to that terrible future...


Arsenios

Jesus knows the future but that does NOT mean he would say better that Judas was never born!

God knows the future, but he still tested Abraham to see if he would offer Isaac.

God know the future, but he still told Cain to watch out for sin.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Maybe your translation is inaccurate?

Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, I have sinned by betraying innocent blood. They said, What is that to us? See to it yourself. And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.
(Matthew 27:3-5)

I don't care what translation use decide to use, it still shows Judas repenting. When someone feels bad and brings the money back that is repenting.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Jesus did indeed see his future...

But do not imitate his "repentance"...

For it led to that terrible future...


Arsenios

That is the way the law was supposed to deal with the shedding of innocent blood.

 

[Andrew]

That is the way the law was supposed to deal with the shedding of innocent blood.

Jesus was the final sacrifice of blood offerings, Judas should have 'gotten' that right? did Judas not know that the Son of Man should be killed? Judas heard Jesus say that

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't care what translation use decide to use, it still shows Judas repenting. When someone feels bad and brings the money back that is repenting.

It may matter if the underlying Greek word does not mean repent.

The Greek words are

μεταμεληθεὶς ἔστρεψεν

They do not mean repent.

μεταμεληθεὶς means having felt remorse

and ἔστρεψεν means turned back and it refers to the thirty pieces of silver which he returned to the chief priests and elders.

 

[Arsenios]

It may matter if the underlying Greek word does not mean repent.

The Greek words are

μεταμεληθεὶς ἔστρεψεν

They do not mean repent.

μεταμεληθεὶς means having felt remorse

and ἔστρεψεν means turned back and it refers to the thirty pieces of silver which he returned to the chief priests and elders.

Feeling remorse is, of can be, the beginning of repentance...

It is certainly a motive for it...

But if remorse leads to suicide, it is not repentance...

Paul spoke of this, having grieved his children to Godly grief that led to repentance...

And was glad he had not grieved then with merely worldly grief...

Suicide is not repentance...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Feeling remorse is, of can be, the beginning of repentance...

It is certainly a motive for it...

But if remorse leads to suicide, it is not repentance...

Paul spoke of this, having grieved his children to Godly grief that led to repentance...

And was glad he had not grieved then with merely worldly grief...

Suicide is not repentance...


Arsenios

I think that YTG wants to call it self administered judicial execution for high crimes and misdemeanours.

I don't see that as part of the story as told in the gospels. Judas Iscariot self-murdered after he was driven to despair because Jesus didn't rise up in God-glory and smite the Romans. He recognised that he'd betrayed an innocent man and didn't have the faith to ask for forgiveness in Jesus' name.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Jesus was the final sacrifice of blood offerings, Judas should have 'gotten' that right? did Judas not know that the Son of Man should be killed? Judas heard Jesus say that

Judas should have understood some things about Jesus, but understanding comes from obedience. Judas was too busy stealing from the money bag. He did realize the extent of what he did though, in the end.

 

[MennoSota]

I find the angels message quite interesting.
Mark 16:2-7

And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb. And they were saying to one another, “Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?” And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back—it was very large. And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him.

But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.”

Notice that Peter is specifically addressed. Why? Because, like Judas, Peter had betrayed Jesus through denial. Peter went out and wept bitterly. The last time Peter had been with Jesus, he burned the bridge by denying Jesus. How devastating that must have been.
But, God chose to rebuild that bridge and called Peter, specifically, to meet him. Jesus was about to show Peter what love and forgiveness was all about.
Jesus didn't do that with Judas. Jesus let Judas die in his sins. With Peter, Jesus chose to build the bridge.

 

[YourTruthGod]

It may matter if the underlying Greek word does not mean repent.

The Greek words are

μεταμεληθεὶς ἔστρεψεν

They do not mean repent.

μεταμεληθεὶς means having felt remorse

and ἔστρεψεν means turned back and it refers to the thirty pieces of silver which he returned to the chief priests and elders.

You haven't disproved it doesn't mean repent. Of course it means repent. He felt bad about what he did and he knew it was severe and he brought back the money. What in the world would you call that if not repentance?

 

[YourTruthGod]

Feeling remorse is, of can be, the beginning of repentance...

It is certainly a motive for it...

But if remorse leads to suicide, it is not repentance...

Paul spoke of this, having grieved his children to Godly grief that led to repentance...

And was glad he had not grieved then with merely worldly grief...

Suicide is not repentance...


Arsenios

Well said! Except though, the suicide part was because that is what the law would do, put him to death.

 

[YourTruthGod]

I think that YTG wants to call it self administered judicial execution for high crimes and misdemeanours.

I don't see that as part of the story as told in the gospels. Judas Iscariot self-murdered after he was driven to despair because Jesus didn't rise up in God-glory and smite the Romans. He recognised that he'd betrayed an innocent man and didn't have the faith to ask for forgiveness in Jesus' name.

You don't know that the shedding of innocent blood was death, and was executed upon by the chief priests?

Where did Judas go? He went to the chief priests because he wanted to pay for his sin and was trying to give glory to God by admitting his sin.

Joshua 7:19 Then Joshua said to Achan, "My son, give glory to the LORD, the God of Israel, and honor him. Tell me what you have done; do not hide it from me."


A person who tells the truth even though they know they will be put to death is giving glory to God.

 

[Arsenios]

I think that YTG wants to call it self administered judicial execution for high crimes and misdemeanours.

It can be looked at that way, at least from the outside... But did Judas put himself on trial, condemn the Jews who would not put him on trial, publicly condemn himself, sentence himself, and execute himself? If he did, it is not recorded anywhere...

I don't see that as part of the story as told in the gospels.

Nor anywhere else in the early writings...

He came to the Jews who had paid him the silver, confessed his sin...

Mat 27:4 "Saying, 'I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.'"

He took his sin to the Elders, to his masters, seeking relief...

And what did they do? Did they have him kill a pigeon or a fatted calf and offer it to the Temple??

Not even a turtle-dove... Not a drop of water for his soul...

They totally disowned him...

The KJV translates it thus:

"And they said, 'What is that to us? see thou to that.'"

That is, I think, generous... TI PROS HMAS = "What to us?" A curt and rude dismissal...

Followed by the taunt: 'OPSEI - "You will be self-attending". It is not even an imperative...

They would not even take it upon themselves to tell him what to do for his sin...

They wanted his total destruction, and threw him entirely upon himself...

I mean, it was spiritually horrific what happened there...

And yes, he went from there to suicide...

Despair of total despondence...

He could not return to Christ...

He was self condemned...

But what condemned him was not his judging himself, I would guess...

But the intolerable pain of his condition...

The total loss of Grace from Christ...

Followed by the total betrayal of the Elders who had paid him the silver...

The betrayer himself betrayed by those to whom he had betrayed Christ...

So he killed himself to escape the pain...

Do I need to add: "To no avail?"

And: "To far worse?"

Judas Iscariot self-murdered after he was driven to despair because Jesus didn't rise up in God-glory and smite the Romans. He recognised that he'd betrayed an innocent man and didn't have the faith to ask for forgiveness in Jesus' name.

Arsenios

 

[YourTruthGod]

I find the angels message quite interesting.
Mark 16:2-7

Notice that Peter is specifically addressed. Why? Because, like Judas, Peter had betrayed Jesus through denial. Peter went out and wept bitterly. The last time Peter had been with Jesus, he burned the bridge by denying Jesus. How devastating that must have been.
But, God chose to rebuild that bridge and called Peter, specifically, to meet him. Jesus was about to show Peter what love and forgiveness was all about.
Jesus didn't do that with Judas. Jesus let Judas die in his sins. With Peter, Jesus chose to build the bridge.

There was a big difference though in Peters denial out of fear and a long time unrepentant Judas having handed Jesus over to be killed.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

 

[YourTruthGod]

It can be looked at that way, at least from the outside... But did Judas put himself on trial, condemn the Jews who would not put him on trial, publicly condemn himself, sentence himself, and execute himself? If he did, it is not recorded anywhere...



Nor anywhere else in the early writings...

He came to the Jews who had paid him the silver, confessed his sin...

Mat 27:4 "Saying, 'I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.'"

He took his sin to the Elders, to his masters, seeking relief...

And what did they do? Did they have him kill a pigeon or a fatted calf and offer it to the Temple??

Not even a turtle-dove... Not a drop of water for his soul...

They totally disowned him...

The KJV translates it thus:

"And they said, 'What is that to us? see thou to that.'"

That is, I think, generous... TI PROS HMAS = "What to us?" A curt and rude dismissal...

Followed by the taunt: 'OPSEI - "You will be self-attending". It is not even an imperative...

They would not even take it upon themselves to tell him what to do for his sin...

They wanted his total destruction, and threw him entirely upon himself...

I mean, it was spiritually horrific what happened there...

And yes, he went from there to suicide...

Despair of total despondence...

He could not return to Christ...

He was self condemned...

But what condemned him was not his judging himself, I would guess...

But the intolerable pain of his condition...

The total loss of Grace from Christ...

Followed by the total betrayal of the Elders who had paid him the silver...

The betrayer himself betrayed by those to whom he had betrayed Christ...

So he killed himself to escape the pain...

Do I need to add: "To no avail?"

And: "To far worse?"




Arsenios

You are wrong about it not being in the scriptures.

Good grief, how can you say it is not in the scriptures?

You are not speaking truth about me when you say what I said is not in the scriptures.

Tell us all right now what is the punishment from the chief priests for the shedding of innocent blood?

IT IS DEATH.

What did Judas CONFESS TO THE CHIEF PRIESTS?

He confessed to shedding of innocent blood!

Then they told Judas, "See thou to that."

You, my friend, did a betrayal to me saying I speak of what is not in the scriptures.

You don't even know that there WAS NO OFFERING to be GIVEN FOR THE SHEDDING OF INNOCENT BLOOD!

Do you not understand that?

There was no offering under the old law to give for the shedding of innocent blood.

You all who think you are so fancy in the Lord with your looking to the Greek language is further from the truth, as is evident.