All About Faith

[YourTruthGod]

Debate is so...
Well...
Thomistic!!

I mean, the Orthodox do not debate...

But English school-boys do...


Arsenios

You should be more like the Apostle Paul then.

He debated much.

Acts 9:29 He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Acts 18:28
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate: they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them.

 

[YourTruthGod]

It is never at the end of a sentence...

Like this...











.Arsenios

Thank you for the good laugh!

 

[atpollard]

You could at least give the literal translation, Josiah...

My guess is that you are guessing at the grammar as well...



Gramatically this means that Grace saves you and that the MEANS of Grace is the Faith...

Christ discipled His Faith to His Apostles...

THAT Faith is the MEANS of Salvation...

The referent of "...this..." is God's Gift,
which is the Saving Grace of God
that saves us THROUGH
the Faith of Christ...


Arsenios

I was under the impression that “this” would have needed to be either ‘male’ or ‘female’ to refer to “grace” or “saved” or “faith”, and the ‘neuter’ “this” implies that it refers to “grace, saved and faith” collectively. All of salvation is a “gift”.

 

[Andrew]

As for faith, YOU have to have faith TO GET SAVED.

I agree with this statement

 

[MennoSota]

Would you like the names of the Myrrh Bearing Women of the Lord?

We know their names, you see...

Passed down through oral tradition by word of mouth...

Anathema in your soul, I know...

Her name was Anna...


Arsenios

Baptist tradition tells us that Ana carried a sacred caldron of water from the Ganges across the desert on a flying camel so that she could dunk baby Jesus in the magical Himalayan waters. Thus Jesus was baptized so that all later denominations could follow suit. All hail saint ana the baptist.
Beats ole George and the dragon, don't it.

 

[YourTruthGod]

I agree with this statement

No, you do NOT.
You keep saying Jesus gives us the faith without our ability.

 

[Arsenios]

The central doctrine of the Christian faith, which is justification.

Actually, it is not...

God's Justification is between God's Call and God's Glorification...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Baptist tradition tells us that Ana carried a sacred caldron of water from the Ganges across the desert on a flying camel so that she could dunk baby Jesus in the magical Himalayan waters. Thus Jesus was baptized so that all later denominations could follow suit. All hail saint ana the baptist.
Beats ole George and the dragon, don't it.

Her name IS Anna...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

If a person could believe and obey without God's work of renewal, God would not be needed. You could stand justified before God on your own merit. Jesus would never have needed to become the curse for us so that we might inherit the blessings of adopted sonship.
God must do His work or we die in our sinful attempt to gain salvation by our own self-righteousness.
Brother, you are far from the cross as you run after your own salvation. Let go of your self. Be crucified with Christ tonight, on Good Friday, so that Christ's life might be lived by faith alone. (Galatians 2:20)

God justifies man...

Man does not justify himself to God...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I was under the impression that “this” would have needed to be either ‘male’ or ‘female’ to refer to “grace” or “saved” or “faith”, and the ‘neuter’ “this” implies that it refers to “grace, saved and faith” collectively. All of salvation is a “gift”.

Exactly so - It is an abstract pronoun referring to a prior understanding... Hence neuter...

The prior understanding is about being Saved by God...

So we are saved BY Grace - God's Grace...

We are saved BY this Grace THROUGH the Faith Christ discipled to His disciples...

So we must OBEY Christ THROUGH His Faith which He commanded his Apostles to disciple all the nations...

Notice it does NOT say that faith is a Gift of God...

Literally, it says: "Of God the Gift..."

The Gift of God is God's Grace that Saves us...

It is given THROUGH observing ALL that Christ commanded His Apostles to disciple to us...

To observe all that Christ commanded is to practice obedience to Christ...

It is very straightforward...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

As for faith, YOU have to have faith TO GET SAVED.

I agree with this statement

I don't agree with YTG's statement.
He says "You must, in order to get." That is not grace.
The problem is that YTG sees salvation as an object to attain. He sees it like a toy at Christmas that a child wants and in order to get it he has to be good so that Santa will bring him the toy he wants.
He doesn't realize that salvation is an action of God that is not predicated on the recipient doing something to get it. Salvation is an action where the helpless person receives help whether he calls for it or not.
Yesterday a house in St Paul exploded. There was an elderly gentleman in the house and two neighbors rushed into the house and saved him. The neighbors did so because they chose to go in and because they knew the man and cared about his salvation. Without the action of the two neighbors, the man would have burned in the flames.
Should the man recover, he will respond kindly to his neighbors who graciously did what they were not obligated to do.
That is a picture of God's salvation. God chooses to save us, apart from anything we do, by his grace, and under no requirement or compulsion. He saved us from certain death because we could not save ourselves.
So I reject YTG's statement. It is laden with works before God can act. There is no grace in his statement.

 

[MennoSota]

Exactly so - It is an abstract pronoun referring to a prior understanding... Hence neuter...

The prior understanding is about being Saved by God...

So we are saved BY Grace - God's Grace...

We are saved BY this Grace THROUGH the Faith Christ discipled to His disciples...

So we must OBEY Christ THROUGH His Faith which He commanded his Apostles to disciple all the nations...

Notice it does NOT say that faith is a Gift of God...

Literally, it says: "Of God the Gift..."

The Gift of God is God's Grace that Saves us...

It is given THROUGH observing ALL that Christ commanded His Apostles to disciple to us...

To observe all that Christ commanded is to practice obedience to Christ...

It is very straightforward...


Arsenios

Where does Ephesians 2:8-9 say...
"We are saved BY this Grace THROUGH the
Faith Christ discipled to His disciples..."?
You completely added the phrase "Christ discipled to His disciples."
You confused and twisted what is...as you say is...straight-forward.
We are saved by grace, through faith, which is a gift from God, so that, no one can boast.
It is your dogma and church tradition that adds "Christ discipled to His disciples." It's not in the text.

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus is my Lord and Savior, not my roommate.

He is the First of many Brethren...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Where does Ephesians 2:8-9 say...
"We are saved BY this Grace THROUGH the
Faith Christ discipled to His disciples..."?
You completely added the phrase "Christ discipled to His disciples."
You confused and twisted what is...as you say is...straight-forward.
We are saved by grace, through faith, which is a gift from God, so that, no one can boast.
It is your dogma and church tradition that adds "Christ discipled to His disciples." It's not in the text.

Your false translation omits the definite article in from of the word pistis - Faith...

A definite article - 'h' in this case - h pistis, normally means something definite -

Something one can objectively observe...

Something ostensive...

Inward intense belief is not such a thing...

The question begged by the ostensive definite article - THE Faith...

Begs the question: "WHICH Faith are you talking about?"

In the context of the NT, that can ONLY be the Faith of Christ...

And it is THAT Faith which Christ discipled to His Apostles...

And commanded them to disciple to all the nations...

Exegesis 101...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

None of those verses say you are justified if you do what Jesus says. Not one single verse.

Where in the Bible does it state that God justifies the unrepentant?


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

I don't agree with YTG's statement.
He says "You must, in order to get." That is not grace.
The problem is that YTG sees salvation as an object to attain. He sees it like a toy at Christmas that a child wants and in order to get it he has to be good so that Santa will bring him the toy he wants.
He doesn't realize that salvation is an action of God that is not predicated on the recipient doing something to get it. Salvation is an action where the helpless person receives help whether he calls for it or not.
Yesterday a house in St Paul exploded. There was an elderly gentleman in the house and two neighbors rushed into the house and saved him. The neighbors did so because they chose to go in and because they knew the man and cared about his salvation. Without the action of the two neighbors, the man would have burned in the flames.
Should the man recover, he will respond kindly to his neighbors who graciously did what they were not obligated to do.
That is a picture of God's salvation. God chooses to save us, apart from anything we do, by his grace, and under no requirement or compulsion. He saved us from certain death because we could not save ourselves.
So I reject YTG's statement. It is laden with works before God can act. There is no grace in his statement.

That story is exactly how I felt when I got saved, before I even knew it I was thanking God.
I didn't realize the bold emphasis in YTGs statement, I just sided it with "no faith = no salvation".
He's not alone in believing in works salvation, but he doesn't like Catholicism or Orthodox, nor is he a protestant, what a pickle if he ever decides to go to church :/
It will come to him, heck I was on my own and created my own commentary, I knew I shouldn't feel confused because God is not the author of confusion, so I prayed and asked and I received... I believe that no matter how passionate we are to help our brother we should encourage him to seek community in a church as well, the Internet can be brutal for a babe in Christ. We all go through a "cage stage" where we are eager to discuss the good news with others but equally get passionately aggressive if anyone disagrees with you over specific details.
Praying for saints to come his way..
..and a 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 "oh when the saints come marching, oh when the saints come marching in...."

 

[MennoSota]

Your false translation omits the definite article in from of the word pistis - Faith...

A definite article - 'h' in this case - h pistis, normally means something definite -

Something one can objectively observe...

Something ostensive...

Inward intense belief is not such a thing...

The question begged by the ostensive definite article - THE Faith...

Begs the question: "WHICH Faith are you talking about?"

In the context of the NT, that can ONLY be the Faith of Christ...

And it is THAT Faith which Christ discipled to His Apostles...

And commanded them to disciple to all the nations...

Exegesis 101...


Arsenios

There is nothing in the verse saying "Faith which Christ discipled to His Apostles." Eisegesis 101...

 

[MoreCoffee]

Orthodox Patriarchs can be and have been heretics...

Can the Pope be a heretic?


Arsenios

A number of Orthodox patriarchs have been heretics and I dare say that some today may be. A pope could be a heretic as long as he never makes an ex cathedra pronouncement on doctrine and morals that is heresy. I cannot recall a heretic pope though some (a few) were scoundrels.

 

[Arsenios]

Let's look:
John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him,
to those who believed in his name,
he gave the authority
to become children of God.

Notice it does not say "To all whom He gave special grace to receive Him..."

1) Yet
Question: What does the word "yet" refer to?
It connects something, but what?
What comes before this that the writer is connecting?

It refers to those who did NOT receive Him by believing in His Name...

2) to all who receive him
Question: Who are "all" who receive him? Who is the word "him" referring to? What does receive mean? Is it similar to receiving a package delivered specifically to a person?

See above...

3) to those who believe in his name
Question: Who are "those?" Does "those" relate to "all" in the earlier phrase?
What does "believe" refer to?
What/who does "his name" refer to?
Can we determine that by exploring an earlier verse?

This is tedious...

4) he gave the right to become children of God.
Question: Does "he" refer to the "his name" in the earlier phrase?
Who is "he?" What is a "the right" being referenced?
What is a "right?" Is it a legal term? What does "to become" mean?

The Greek is exousia - It means authority... It means POWER...

How does one "become" a child of God?
Does the "become" happen because "he" gives "the right" to be "children of God?"

By exercising one's God-Given Authority...

What is a child of God? What does that look like?

It looks like a little obedient kid who loves his dad...

Notice that there is much here to explore.
There is much here that points to the Sovereign work of God,
that is not dependent upon human action first.

It is a conditional state, this God-Given Authority to become a Child of God...
A person must receive Him, believing in His Name...
Only then will one be given Authority to become His Child...
This means being obedient as a child to a loving father...

The scripture says much more than you are willing to accept or explore.

Back at ya!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There is nothing in the verse saying "Faith which Christ discipled to His Apostles." Eisegesis 101...

So which Faith then does the definite article define??

I say Christ's Faith...

Do YOU say your personal faith??

And if yes, where does it say personal faith is given by God to the unrepentant?



Arsenios