Communion of the Saints

[Andrew]

Here is what I found on CatholicExchange:https://catholicexchange.com/why-do-we-call-the-archangels-saints

The word “saint” derives from the Latin word “sancta,” meaning “holy” one. Thus, by definition all of God’s holy angels are saints. Not all angels are holy, however, as some angels chose to follow Satan instead of God. These bad angels, called demons, seek our ruin and give us cause to ask for the help of God’s angels in spiritual battle.

While all of the heavenly angels are holy, only three have been called “saint”: Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. The early Church venerated these angels, i.e., gave them honor, invoked their names, and asked for their intercession.

I have no problem with this, in fact I have prayed for Holy ones to come into my life and my prayers were answered, I'm referring the my testimony I have shared here a few times.

 

[Arsenios]

The word 'saint' means holy one.

The word itself, Agios, is an A-privative before the word for world - gifs...

It simply means unworldly...

Saints lead un-worldly lives, consecrated fully to God...

They are often miracle-workers, but not always...

To become a Saint, one must love God with all one's strength, life, soul, mind, body...

And one's neighbor as one's self...

No small matter...

Denial of self is hard...

Loving one's neighbor as one's self means denial of self in order to do so...

Most of us do not even see our neighbor as our self...

We see neighbor as other than self...

"But be of good cheer...
I have overcome the world..."
Christ's Own words...

And we who are Christians follow Christ...
That we also overcome the world...
Thereby becoming unworldly...

As we deny self...
Becoming unselfish...
The path unto perfecting our Faith...

Within ourselves...

Christianity 101


Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

Arsenios,

The definition that you gave as to what a saint is isn't correct.
The Greek word Hagios does not begin with a negative prefix.
The spelling in Greek 'agios where the ' is a breath mark.
It's not a negative as agnostic or atheist or apathy.

It does mean different from the world

From Strong's
The fundamental (core) meaning of (hágios) is "different" – thus a temple in the 1st century was hagios ("holy") because different from other buildings (Wm. Barclay). In the NT, 40 /hágios ("holy") has the "technical" meaning "different from the world" because "like the Lord."
(hágios) implies something "set apart" and therefore "different (distinguished/distinct)" – i.e. "other," because special to the Lord.]

ἅγιος, , (from τό ἀγός religious awe, reverence; ἄζω, ἅζομαι, to venerate, revere, especially the gods, parents (Curtius, § 118)), rare in secular authors; very frequent in the sacred writings; in the Sept. for קָדושׁ; (qadash)


https://www.biblehub.com/greek/39.htm

BTW the Greek word for world is kosmos and earth is ge

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[MoreCoffee]

G40

ἅγιος

hágios; fem. hagía, neut. hágion (G39), adj. from hágos (n.f.), any matter of religious awe, expiation, sacrifice. Holy, set apart, sanctified, consecrated, saint. It has a common root, hág-, with hagnós (G53), chaste, pure. Its fundamental idea is separation, consecration, devotion to the service of Deity, sharing in God's purity and abstaining from earth's defilement.

(I) Pure, clean, ceremonially or morally clean, including the idea of deserved respect, reverence.

(A) It particularly means perfect, without blemish (Rom 12:1).
(B) Metaphorically it means morally pure, upright, blameless in heart and life, virtuous, holy.

(1) Generally (Mar 6:20; Rom 7:12; 1Co 7:34; Eph 1:4; Eph 5:27; 1Pe 1:16; Sept.: Lev 11:44).
(2) Spoken of those who are purified and sanctified by the influences of the Spirit. This is assumed of all who profess the Christian name, hence hágios, saint, hágioi, saints, Christians (Act 9:13-14, Act 9:32, Act 9:41; Act 26:10; Rom 1:7; Rom 8:27; 1Th 3:13). Spoken of those who are to be in any way included in the Christian community (1Co 7:14). Holy kiss means the sacred Christian kiss, the pledge of Christian affection (Rom 16:16; 1Co 16:20; 2Co 13:12).​

(II) Consecrated, devoted, sacred, holy, meaning set apart from a common to a sacred use; spoken of places, temples, cities, the priesthood, men (Mat 4:5; Mat 7:6; Mat 24:15; Mat 27:53; Act 6:13; Act 7:33; Rom 11:16, of firstfruit); of a male opening the womb (Luk 2:23); of apostles (Eph 3:5); of prophets (Luk 1:70; Act 3:21; 2Pe 1:21); of angels (Mat 25:31).
(III) Holy, hallowed, worthy of reverence and veneration:

(A) Of God (Joh 17:11; Rev 4:8; Rev 6:10; Sept.: Isa 5:16; Isa 6:3).
(B) Of His Name (Luk 1:49; Sept.: Lev 22:2).
(C) Of the Holy Spirit (Mat 1:18).
(D) Of holy covenant (Luk 1:72).
(E) Of the Holy Scriptures (Rom 1:2; Sept.: Dan 11:28, Dan 11:30).
​

The hiereús (G2409), priest, although he may not always be hágios, holy, performs priestly duties or ordinances and is sacred or consecrated (hósios [G3741]).
Deriv.: hagiázō (G37), to sanctify; hagiótēs (G41), holiness; hagiōsúnē (G42), holiness, the quality of sanctification.
Syn.: hieroprepḗs (G2412), a fitting sanctity; eusebḗs (G2152), godly, pious; hósios (G3741), pure from evil contact, ceremonially pure; áspilos (G784), without spot; hierós (G2413), sacred, outwardly associated with God; eilikrinḗs (G1506), sincere, pure.
Ant.: koinós (G2839), common, defiled; akáthartos (G169), unclean.​

The Complete Word Study Dictionary

 

[Josiah]

Regardless of whether those in heaven are "saints"..... where is the teaching in Scripture that "they" hear our prayer requests? That they respond by answering the prayer? Or even that they simply pass it on to Jesus? And that their prayers are more effectual than ours? And that THEY praying for us is more helpful to us than say our spouse or friends or fellow church members praying for us?

 

[Arsenios]

Regardless of whether those in heaven are "saints"..... where is the teaching in Scripture that "they" hear our prayer requests? That they respond by answering the prayer? Or even that they simply pass it on to Jesus? And that their prayers are more effectual than ours? And that THEY praying for us is more helpful to us than say our spouse or friends or fellow church members praying for us?

Jas 5:16
Confess your faults one to another,
and pray one for another,
that ye may be healed.

The effectual fervent prayer
of a righteous man
availeth much.

And if you say that because a Saint reposes that he is dead and gone...
or that at least in heaven he cannot hear our prayers...
or that even if he can hear our prayers he can no longer do anything about them...
For all you cynical scoffers of spiritual life...

Hear Paul:

For me:
To live - Christ...
To die - Gain!

Hear John:

Joh 11:26
And whosoever liveth
and believeth in me
shall never die.
Believest thou this?

2nd century catacombs have prayers to Saints...
And even to relatives...
That they intercede for those still on earth...
And not a murmur in all Christendom...

And this the Christendom Christ established...
Which will not abide changing so much as one word...
Neither then nor now...
The Faith delivered to the holy ones...

Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

Jas 5:16
Confess your faults one to another,
and pray one for another,
that ye may be healed.

The effectual fervent prayer
of a righteous man
availeth much.

And if you say that because a Saint reposes that he is dead and gone...
or that at least in heaven he cannot hear our prayers...
or that even if he can hear our prayers he can no longer do anything about them...
For all you cynical scoffers of spiritual life...

Hear Paul:

For me:
To live - Christ...
To die - Gain!

Hear John:

Joh 11:26
And whosoever liveth
and believeth in me
shall never die.
Believest thou this?

2nd century catacombs have prayers to Saints...
And even to relatives...
That they intercede for those still on earth...
And not a murmur in all Christendom...

And this the Christendom Christ established...
Which will not abide changing so much as one word...
Neither then nor now...
The Faith delivered to the holy ones...

Arsenios

You seem to ignore the story of the rich man in hell and Lazarus in heaven and what did God say about him being able to help him? He couldnt could he? Seems to me that if the ones that have passed could help us that it would have been mentioned since God has laid out all the other things so clearly.

 

[Arsenios]

G40

ἅγιος

hágios; fem. hagía, neut. hágion (G39), adj. from hágos (n.f.), any matter of religious awe, expiation, sacrifice. Holy, set apart, sanctified, consecrated, saint. It has a common root, hág-, with hagnós (G53), chaste, pure. Its fundamental idea is separation, consecration, devotion to the service of Deity, sharing in God's purity and abstaining from earth's defilement.

(I) Pure, clean, ceremonially or morally clean, including the idea of deserved respect, reverence.

(A) It particularly means perfect, without blemish (Rom 12:1).
(B) Metaphorically it means morally pure, upright, blameless in heart and life, virtuous, holy.

(1) Generally (Mar 6:20; Rom 7:12; 1Co 7:34; Eph 1:4; Eph 5:27; 1Pe 1:16; Sept.: Lev 11:44).
(2) Spoken of those who are purified and sanctified by the influences of the Spirit. This is assumed of all who profess the Christian name, hence hágios, saint, hágioi, saints, Christians (Act 9:13-14, Act 9:32, Act 9:41; Act 26:10; Rom 1:7; Rom 8:27; 1Th 3:13). Spoken of those who are to be in any way included in the Christian community (1Co 7:14). Holy kiss means the sacred Christian kiss, the pledge of Christian affection (Rom 16:16; 1Co 16:20; 2Co 13:12).​

(II) Consecrated, devoted, sacred, holy, meaning set apart from a common to a sacred use; spoken of places, temples, cities, the priesthood, men (Mat 4:5; Mat 7:6; Mat 24:15; Mat 27:53; Act 6:13; Act 7:33; Rom 11:16, of firstfruit); of a male opening the womb (Luk 2:23); of apostles (Eph 3:5); of prophets (Luk 1:70; Act 3:21; 2Pe 1:21); of angels (Mat 25:31).
(III) Holy, hallowed, worthy of reverence and veneration:

(A) Of God (Joh 17:11; Rev 4:8; Rev 6:10; Sept.: Isa 5:16; Isa 6:3).
(B) Of His Name (Luk 1:49; Sept.: Lev 22:2).
(C) Of the Holy Spirit (Mat 1:18).
(D) Of holy covenant (Luk 1:72).
(E) Of the Holy Scriptures (Rom 1:2; Sept.: Dan 11:28, Dan 11:30).
​

The hiereús (G2409), priest, although he may not always be hágios, holy, performs priestly duties or ordinances and is sacred or consecrated (hósios [G3741]).
Deriv.: hagiázō (G37), to sanctify; hagiótēs (G41), holiness; hagiōsúnē (G42), holiness, the quality of sanctification.
Syn.: hieroprepḗs (G2412), a fitting sanctity; eusebḗs (G2152), godly, pious; hósios (G3741), pure from evil contact, ceremonially pure; áspilos (G784), without spot; hierós (G2413), sacred, outwardly associated with God; eilikrinḗs (G1506), sincere, pure.
Ant.: koinós (G2839), common, defiled; akáthartos (G169), unclean.​

The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Well thanks to Rich's post, I looked and the lexicon does not show Agios to be world or earth privative...

And it sure looks like he is right...

It seems to be a sort of primary word almost...

Maybe related to geros which means honored, hence elderly or old...

Meaning ageless?

But even from ancient times it meant simply holy or consecrated to God, or with the ancient Greeks, to the gods...

So that the Oracle at Delphi would be Agios to the Greeks...

And the Greeks were earthly!

So I will sniff about a bit - It seemed such a no-brainer that I assumed it meant unworldly...

So much for obvious!

When driving, if left is right, then right is wrong!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You seem to ignore the story of the rich man in hell and Lazarus in heaven and what did God say about him being able to help him? He couldnt could he? Seems to me that if the ones that have passed could help us that it would have been mentioned since God has laid out all the other things so clearly.

I found it interesting with that story that the condemned and un-named rich man could not help his own brothers...

Yet he COULD ask Lazarus for help, for a little water...

And he asked Abraham to warn his brothers...

And Abraham did not say "I cannot..."

He said it would do them no good...

Nor even if they saw with their own eyes someone rise from the dead, wasn't it?


Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

I found it interesting with that story that the condemned and un-named rich man could not help his own brothers...

Yet he COULD ask Lazarus for help, for a little water...

And he asked Abraham to warn his brothers...

And Abraham did not say "I cannot..."

He said it would do them no good...

Nor even if they saw with their own eyes someone rise from the dead, wasn't it?


Arsenios

Yes, pretty clear that those who have passed on cannot help those still alive

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, pretty clear that those who have passed on cannot help those still alive

I read it as Abraham declining to help the rich man's brothers, not because he could not, but because the "help" asked for would not help them...

Nor indeed did it help them when Christ arose from the dead...

Israel did not care...


Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

Jas 5:16
Confess your faults one to another,
and pray one for another,
that ye may be healed.

The effectual fervent prayer
of a righteous man
availeth much.

And if you say that because a Saint reposes that he is dead and gone...
or that at least in heaven he cannot hear our prayers...
or that even if he can hear our prayers he can no longer do anything about them...
For all you cynical scoffers of spiritual life...

Hear Paul:

For me:
To live - Christ...
To die - Gain!

Hear John:

Joh 11:26
And whosoever liveth
and believeth in me
shall never die.
Believest thou this?

2nd century catacombs have prayers to Saints...
And even to relatives...
That they intercede for those still on earth...
And not a murmur in all Christendom...

And this the Christendom Christ established...
Which will not abide changing so much as one word...
Neither then nor now...
The Faith delivered to the holy ones...

Arsenios

Nothing in this post has anything to do with prayers to dead saints!
James wrote to living, breathing devout Jews, no reference made on behalf of the dead
Paul
To live is Christ
To die is gain
Again, nothing to do with the prayers to saints in heaven




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[Arsenios]

Nothing in this post has anything to do with prayers to dead saints!
James wrote to living, breathing devout Jews, no reference made on behalf of the dead
Paul
To live is Christ
To die is gain
Again, nothing to do with the prayers to saints in heaven

If Paul in the flesh can help you,
And for him to die is gain...
How much more can he help you...
After he gains through his death?

Because he is alive...
Believers do not die...
God is not the God of the dead...
But of the living...

God is Glorified in His Holy Ones...
To pray to a Holy One of God...
In this life or the next...
IS to pray to God IN the Holy One...

God COULD have healed Saul's eyes...
Right there on the road to Damascus...
He COULD have given him the Holy Spirit...
Right there on that dusty road...

But He sent ANANIAS to restore his sight...
He sent ANANIAS to give him the Holy Spirit...
God DESIRES us to intercede with Him for one another...
For the prayer of a righteous one availeth much...

For you folks, death is a door slammed in your face...
For the Orthodox, it does not separate us from those we love...
Nor from those who love us...
Nor from God...


Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

You're talking cryptic Arsenios. I don't see how you went from dead not praying for the living to Christians never die therefore. . .
Paul's words cannot be construed to mean that he taught prayer to deceased saints who do not die, therefore it's okay!
Doesn't cut mustard

You are beginning to do what Rome had been doing for centuries, add your own meaning to the Bible so it means what you want it to. That is eisegesis (reading into Scripture what is not there)

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[Arsenios]

You're talking cryptic Arsenios.

Yes...

Death is the middle wall...

Christians have been praying to God in His departed Saints for 2000 years...

God prefers to work through His Holy Ones...


Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

Yes...

Death is the middle wall...

Christians have been praying to God in His departed Saints for 2000 years...

God prefers to work through His Holy Ones...


Arsenios

Christians have? I'm not familiar with the Scripture they would use to defend their praying to dead saints!!
Do you?

We (living saints) pray for and with other living saints yes not to them!

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[MennoSota]

Yes...

Death is the middle wall...

Christians have been praying to God in His departed Saints for 2000 years...

God prefers to work through His Holy Ones...


Arsenios

Pagan mystics and gnostics have done this. It's a bizarre, very much gentile pagan world that took up this silly myth. No one in the scriptures ever did such silliness, but clearly you follow the myth as though it were fact.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Yes...

Death is the middle wall...

Christians have been praying to God in His departed Saints for 2000 years...

God prefers to work through His Holy Ones...


Arsenios

God does not tell us to pray to those who have passed.

 

[Arsenios]

God does not tell us to pray to those who have passed.

God is Glorified in His Saints...

To live - Christ!
To die - Gain!

God wants us to work His works one toward the other...
That work does not stop at one's final breath...
The life we receive is eternal...
We walk in the presence of a "Great cloud of witnesses..."

The Church Triumphant is not a dead church...
Not even in Old Testament times...
Moses and Elijah met with the Disciples and Christ...
Abel's blood cried from the ground...

Turning your backs on the dead...
Is not a Christian teaching...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

God does not tell us to pray to those who have passed.

God tells me not to worry about the opinions of folk who do not invoke the saints and angels in their prayers.