Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[Lamb]

1 Timothy 4:10 "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."

Scripture makes the distinction that Jesus is the Savior of all people...and especially of those who believe which shows that Christ died for all.

 

[Josiah]

1 Timothy 4:10 "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."

Scripture makes the distinction that Jesus is the Savior of all people...and especially of those who believe which shows that Christ died for all.

Yup.


As the Bible so often states, Jesus died for all - and it's not fake or pretend for MOST, it's real for all (not a lie). SOME have faith and thus embrace, apprehend, trust, rely on that and benefit from it. SOME don't. But the reason for the "some" is not the absence of the Cross but the absence of faith.

Just as everyone here has said for 31 pages, with one dogmatically disagreeing: claiming to uphold this very radical, unbiblical invention of a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists: Christ died ONLY for a few, ONLY for the elect, ONLY for the few (and we have no list of who those few are).




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[MennoSota]

1 Timothy 4:10 "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."

Scripture makes the distinction that Jesus is the Savior of all people...and especially of those who believe which shows that Christ died for all.

The elect come from all people groups and all socio-economic groups. 1 Timothy is not saying God saves all people. God is not a universalist. He doesn't save all humanity.

 

[Josiah]

The elect come from all people groups and all socio-economic groups. 1 Timothy is not saying God saves all people. God is not a universalist. He doesn't save all humanity.

AMAZING how you just totally throw out the entire issue of faith.... Just totally irrelevant, moot.
AMAZING how you have to entirely contradict SO MANY, SO MANY Scriptures, twisting them to say the exact opposite of what they proclaim.
AMAZING how you have yet - in 31 pages of posts - failed to come up with even one verse that remotely says that Christ died for ONLY, exclusively, solely, for "the church" "the elect" "the few"

God is not a universalist.

Because God doesn't entirely ignore the issue of faith, as you do. No one here is an universalist because you are the only one here to consider faith moot. God gives Christ to all.... He just doesn't give faith to all.




Merry Christmas! "And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. "






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[MennoSota]

AMAZING how you just totally throw out the entire issue of faith.... Just totally irrelevant, moot.
AMAZING how you have to entirely contradict SO MANY, SO MANY Scriptures, twisting them to say the exact opposite of what they proclaim.
AMAZING how you have yet - in 31 pages of posts - failed to come up with even one verse that remotely says that Christ died for ONLY, exclusively, solely, for "the church" "the elect" "the few"







Because God doesn't entirely ignore the issue of faith, as you do. No one here is an universalist because you are the only one here to consider faith moot. God gives Christ to all.... He just doesn't give faith to all.




Merry Christmas! "And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. "






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Josiah, where does faith come from? Does it come as a gift from God or does it come as an effort of men?
I do not throw faith away. I claim, as scripture claims, that God makes people alive in Christ, by grace, and gives those people, whom He has made alive, the gift of faith to believe. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 and see it for yourself, Josiah. God is clear...even if you are muddy.

 

[MennoSota]

Josiah, I love that you quote this verse.

Merry Christmas! "And the angel said to them, “" post=Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. "

The angels do not say "for ALL people." They say "for all THE people." For all the elect. For all the chosen people of God.
This verse makes my point...that Christ died only for the church. The joy is come for God's chosen ones. The curse remains on those whom Jesus did not make atonement.

 

[Albion]

There is no meaningful difference between all people and all the people.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, where does faith come from?

Your constant playing of the shell game is old.... please stop ALWAYS, CONSTANTLY changing the subject. We're discussing the "L" of TULIP, which is NOT "Limited Faith" but "Christ died ONLY, exclusively, for just the elect, the church, the minority, the few. The sole issue here is that "ONLY."


Friend, as we all know, TULIP was invented by a few later-day Calvinists as a direct, point-by-point contradiction to the 5 points of Arminianism.. the same "logic but no Scripture" approach. The Arminists were not universalists (universalism is an off-shoot of Calvinism) and they DID accept that faith is not universal, that faith is not in everyone. So THAT point is NOT being disputed in TULIP. The "L" does NOT stand for "Limited Faith." It is irrelevant to THIS discussion whether faith comes from God or from one making a free choice (EVERYONE HERE knows -absolutely KNOWS - my opinion of that), regardless of that, faith is the variable.

Friend, you seem to like to push around that shell.... perhaps to PRETEND that you mis-stated what this dogma is, that it's NOT that Jesus died for ONLY the church (as you correctly said) BUT rather it's that the RESULT of that doesn't apply to all because not all have faith. Friend, that's OUR position.... that's what all the rest of us but you alone are saying here.... trying to pretend you actually agree with us and disagree with you is... well.... silly. The "L" does not stand for "Limited Effect", the dogma is what you said it is: That Jesus died ONLY for the elect, the church, the few.

You've had 31 pages of posts to give any verse that says "ONLY." And to say why all the many, many Scriptures the rest of us have noted that say the exact opposite are wrong. 31 pages of posts. I'm thinking if you had anything, you would have shared it by now. ALL we get are dodges, evasions, proof that you know how to ask a question, and twisting verses totally to the EXACT OPPOSITE of what these many verses state.



.

Does it come as a gift from God or does it come as an effort of men?
I do not throw faith away. I claim, as scripture claims, that God makes people alive in Christ, by grace, and gives those people, whom He has made alive, the gift of faith to believe. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 and see it for yourself, Josiah. God is clear...even if you are muddy.[/QUOTE]

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota,


Your constant playing of the shell game is old.... please stop ALWAYS, CONSTANTLY changing the subject. We're discussing the "L" of TULIP, which is NOT "Limited Faith" but "Christ died ONLY, exclusively, for just the elect, the church, the minority, the few. The sole issue here is that "ONLY," the "exclusively, just for"


Friend, as we all know, TULIP was invented by a few later-day Calvinists as a direct, point-by-point contradiction to the 5 points of Arminianism.. the same "logic but no Scripture" approach. The Arminists were not universalists (universalism is an off-shoot of Calvinism) and they DID accept that faith is not universal, that faith is not in everyone. So THAT point is NOT being disputed in TULIP. The "L" does NOT stand for "Limited Faith." It is irrelevant to THIS discussion whether faith comes from God or from one making a free choice (EVERYONE HERE knows -absolutely KNOWS - my opinion of that), regardless of that, faith is the variable.

Friend, you seem to like to push around that shell.... perhaps to PRETEND that you mis-stated what this dogma is, that it's NOT that Jesus died for ONLY the church (as you correctly said) BUT rather it's that the RESULT of that doesn't apply to all because not all have faith. Friend, that's OUR position.... that's what all the rest of us but you alone are saying here.... trying to pretend you actually agree with us and disagree with you is... well.... silly. The "L" does not stand for "Limited Effect", the dogma is what you said it is: That Jesus died ONLY for the elect, the church, the few.

You've had 31 pages of posts to give any verse that says "ONLY." And to say why all the many, many Scriptures the rest of us have noted that say the exact opposite are wrong. 31 pages of posts. I'm thinking if you had anything, you would have shared it by now. ALL we get are dodges, evasions, proof that you know how to ask a question, and twisting verses totally to the EXACT OPPOSITE of what these many verses state.



.

I claim, as scripture claims, that God makes people alive in Christ, by grace, and gives those people, whom He has made alive, the gift of faith to believe. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 and see it for yourself, Josiah.

I agree. I agree with every word in Ephesians 2:1-10. Now, stop playing "the shell game." Stop changing the subject - constantly - every time you have nothing. The "L" is not "God Gives Faith." It is that Christ died ONLY for the elect, the church, the few.... It would be helpful if you would address the topic of the thread you created and defend the correct definition you yourself gave: The dogma is specific: Jesus died ONLY for the elect - exclusively, solely. You have given no Scripture that says that - just verses that say the opposite that you radically twist upside down and inside out to where you say they say the opposite of what they do.





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[MennoSota]

Your constant playing of the shell game is old.... please stop ALWAYS, CONSTANTLY changing the subject. We're discussing the "L" of TULIP, which is NOT "Limited Faith" but "Christ died ONLY, exclusively, for just the elect, the church, the minority, the few. The sole issue here is that "ONLY."Does it come as a gift from God or does it come as an effort of men?


Friend, as we all know, TULIP was invented by a few later-day Calvinists as a direct, point-by-point contradiction to the 5 points of Arminianism.. the same "logic but no Scripture" approach. The Arminists were not universalists (universalism is an off-shoot of Calvinism) and they DID accept that faith is not universal, that faith is not in everyone. So THAT point is NOT being disputed in TULIP. The "L" does NOT stand for "Limited Faith." It is irrelevant to THIS discussion whether faith comes from God or from one making a free choice (EVERYONE HERE knows -absolutely KNOWS - my opinion of that), regardless of that, faith is the variable.

Friend, you seem to like to push around that shell.... perhaps to PRETEND that you mis-stated what this dogma is, that it's NOT that Jesus died for ONLY the church (as you correctly said) BUT rather it's that the RESULT of that doesn't apply to all because not all have faith. Friend, that's OUR position.... that's what all the rest of us but you alone are saying here.... trying to pretend you actually agree with us and disagree with you is... well.... silly. The "L" does not stand for "Limited Effect", the dogma is what you said it is: That Jesus died ONLY for the elect, the church, the few.

You've had 31 pages of posts to give any verse that says "ONLY." And to say why all the many, many Scriptures the rest of us have noted that say the exact opposite are wrong. 31 pages of posts. I'm thinking if you had anything, you would have shared it by now. ALL we get are dodges, evasions, proof that you know how to ask a question, and twisting verses totally to the EXACT OPPOSITE of what these many verses state.



.

Does it come as a gift from God or does it come as an effort of men?
I do not throw faith away. I claim, as scripture claims, that God makes people alive in Christ, by grace, and gives those people, whom He has made alive, the gift of faith to believe. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 and see it for yourself, Josiah. God is clear...even if you are muddy.

[/QUOTE]There is no shell game being played. You are simply afraid to answer my question. Instead you divert to nonsense.

 

[MennoSota]

Josiah: Does faith come as a gift from God or does it come as an effort of men?

The answer above affects the other answer as to whether Jesus atoned only for the church or for all humanity.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah: Does faith come as a gift from God or does it come as an effort of men?

The answer above affects the other answer as to whether Jesus atoned only for the church or for all humanity.

Nope.

Questions are not substantiation for anything, they are not apologetics AT ALL.

And the "L" is as you said: The dogma invented by these few later-day hyper-Calvinists is that Christ DIED for only the elect, the church, just the few.... it's NOT "God gives faith" or "Not all have faith" or "Not all are saved/" Try - finally, at long last, after 31 pages posts, how about addressing the TOPIC instead of proving you know how to answer questions (I think we all already knew that) and how to constantly, endlessly, perpetually change the subject. Where is the verse that statesChrist died ONLY for the elect, JUST for the church, EXCLUSIVELY for them... Why all are the MANY Scriptures we've presented that flat-out contradict your dogma, why are they all wrong? NOT that God gives faith, NOT that people choose faith, NOT that salvation is or is not universal, NOT whether Christ had long hair or short, NOT any OTHER pov. There's one topic here. One dogma. It is as you said: Christ died ONLY, exclusively, solely for the elect, just for the church.


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[MennoSota]

Nope.

Questions are not substantiation for anything, they are not apologetics AT ALL.

And the "L" is as you said: The dogma invented by these few later-day hyper-Calvinists is that Christ DIED for only the elect, the church, just the few.... it's NOT "God gives faith" or "Not all have faith" or "Not all are saved/" Try - finally, at long last, after 31 pages posts, how about addressing the TOPIC instead of proving you know how to answer questions (I think we all already knew that) and how to constantly, endlessly, perpetually change the subject. Where is the verse that statesChrist died ONLY for the elect, JUST for the church, EXCLUSIVELY for them... Why all are the MANY Scriptures we've presented that flat-out contradict your dogma, why are they all wrong? NOT that God gives faith, NOT that people choose faith, NOT that salvation is or is not universal, NOT whether Christ had long hair or short, NOT any OTHER pov. There's one topic here. One dogma. It is as you said: Christ died ONLY, exclusively, solely for the elect, just for the church.


.

Nope?

You don't believe faith is a gift given by God to those whom He makes alive in Christ?

You must, therefore, believe that humans manufacture their own faith by their own will.
It's a shame you claim Jesus atoned for all humanity, but failed to save most of them by His atoning sacrifice. For you, only those smart enough to conjure up their own faith are actually saved. The rest who fail to conjure up their own faith, make Jesus atonement null and void. Sad...

 

[pinacled]

Nope.

Questions are not substantiation for anything, they are not apologetics AT ALL.

And the "L" is as you said: The dogma invented by these few later-day hyper-Calvinists is that Christ DIED for only the elect, the church, just the few.... it's NOT "God gives faith" or "Not all have faith" or "Not all are saved/" Try - finally, at long last, after 31 pages posts, how about addressing the TOPIC instead of proving you know how to answer questions (I think we all already knew that) and how to constantly, endlessly, perpetually change the subject. Where is the verse that statesChrist died ONLY for the elect, JUST for the church, EXCLUSIVELY for them... Why all are the MANY Scriptures we've presented that flat-out contradict your dogma, why are they all wrong? NOT that God gives faith, NOT that people choose faith, NOT that salvation is or is not universal, NOT whether Christ had long hair or short, NOT any OTHER pov. There's one topic here. One dogma. It is as you said: Christ died ONLY, exclusively, solely for the elect, just for the church.


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John ch 17.
Judas ischariot the betrayer is not one of the chosen or elect of the church..

Some what simple when listening what the Lord says"

 

[MennoSota]

2 Corinthians 5
18All this is from God,*who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us*the ministry of reconciliation;*19that is, in Christ God was reconciling*the world to himself,*not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us*the message of reconciliation.*20Therefore,*we are ambassadors for Christ,*God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.*21For our sake he made him to be sin*who knew no sin, so that in him we might become*the righteousness of God.

Notice verse 21 does not say "for the sake of the world." Instead it says "for our sake." This is the church, not the world.
God is Sovereign in the affairs of salvation. Our salvation does not depend on us. Our salvation depends entirely upon God.

 

[Josiah]

2 Corinthians 5
18All this is from God,*who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us*the ministry of reconciliation;*19that is, in Christ God was reconciling*the world to himself,*not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us*the message of reconciliation.*20Therefore,*we are ambassadors for Christ,*God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.*21For our sake he made him to be sin*who knew no sin, so that in him we might become*the righteousness of God.

Notice verse 21 does not say "for the sake of the world." Instead it says "for our sake." This is the church, not the world.
God is Sovereign in the affairs of salvation. Our salvation does not depend on us. Our salvation depends entirely upon God.

Here continues your ABSURD "logic."

Of course, you again note no "ONLY" - the issue of this thread and dogma.

Your whole, entire premise is that if something is said to be true of one, it ergo dogmatically excludes any other. This has to be THE most illogical, silly apologetic I've never encountered from anyone of any persuasion on the internet.... Your whole, entire premise is that if I posted I love my son, ergo that proves that I don't love my wife. How silly. How illogical. YES, of course, Christ died for the church - NO ONE HERE disputes that, at all. But that's not the issue of this thread, it's just you playing the shell game... the issue is NOT if Jesus died for the church, the issue is if He died ONLY, exclusively, solely, just for the church. THAT'S the topic we are discussing, that's the sole issue you made the topic here. We are on page 32 ... and you still have yet to offer any verse that remotely says "ONLY." And you have yet to tell us why the many verses we're presented that flat-out contradict your dogma are all wrong.

You don't believe faith is a gift given by God to those whom He makes alive in Christ?

Everyone here KNOWS I believe faith is a divine gift.

Now, please.... finally.... STOP THE SHELL GAME, the diversions, the dodges, the constant changing of the subject. This thread is not about whether faith is God's choice or ours, it's not about whether all benefit from Christ's work, it's not about whether some Calvinists are right when they insist all are saved, it's about the radical dogma invented by a few later-day hyper-Calvinists that Jesus died for ONLY the church, JUST the elect, ONLY the few.

Try to address the issue instead of every other issue you can think of, anything to change the subject and evade any apologetic.





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[pinacled]

2 Corinthians 5
18All this is from God,*who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us*the ministry of reconciliation;*19that is, in Christ God was reconciling*the world to himself,*not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us*the message of reconciliation.*20Therefore,*we are ambassadors for Christ,*God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.*21For our sake he made him to be sin*who knew no sin, so that in him we might become*the righteousness of God.

Notice verse 21 does not say "for the sake of the world." Instead it says "for our sake." This is the church, not the world.
God is Sovereign in the affairs of salvation. Our salvation does not depend on us. Our salvation depends entirely upon God.

Amen, Amen

 

[MennoSota]

Here continues your ABSURD "logic."

Of course, you again note no "ONLY" - the issue of this thread and dogma.

Your whole, entire premise is that if something is said to be true of one, it ergo dogmatically excludes any other. This has to be THE most illogical, silly apologetic I've never encountered from anyone of any persuasion on the internet.... Your whole, entire premise is that if I posted I love my son, ergo that proves that I don't love my wife. How silly. How illogical. YES, of course, Christ died for the church - NO ONE HERE disputes that, at all. But that's not the issue of this thread, it's just you playing the shell game... the issue is NOT if Jesus died for the church, the issue is if He died ONLY, exclusively, solely, just for the church. THAT'S the topic we are discussing, that's the sole issue you made the topic here. We are on page 32 ... and you still have yet to offer any verse that remotely says "ONLY." And you have yet to tell us why the many verses we're presented that flat-out contradict your dogma are all wrong.






Everyone here KNOWS I believe faith is a divine gift.

Now, please.... finally.... STOP THE SHELL GAME, the diversions, the dodges, the constant changing of the subject. This thread is not about whether faith is God's choice or ours, it's not about whether all benefit from Christ's work, it's not about whether some Calvinists are right when they insist all are saved, it's about the radical dogma invented by a few later-day hyper-Calvinists that Jesus died for ONLY the church, JUST the elect, ONLY the few.

Try to address the issue instead of every other issue you can think of, anything to change the subject and evade any apologetic.





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There is no need for the word "only" as you claim. It is your crutch to keep up your contradiction.

21For our sake he made him to be sin*who knew no sin, so that in him we might become*the righteousness of God.

Paul does not say "for the world's sake." Paul says "for our sake." He speaks to the elect...to the church.
Josiah, let go of your crutch.
Scripture points to Jesus particular atonement for the elect, not for the entire world. If the atonement was for all the world, then all the world would be given the gift of faith.
The absurd "logic" is your teaching that Christ's atonement is effective for all, but only those who have faith are able to maintain it's effectiveness. All other persons without faith will nullify the effectiveness of Christ's atonement. What you believe is absurd. You make men greater than the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Josiah]

There is no need for the word "only" as you claim.

... then your dogma is without the support of Scripture..... you have NOTHING, just as everyone has learned about 32 pages of you presenting nothing.

Paul does not say "for the world's sake." Paul says "for our sake." He speaks to the elect...to the church.

AGAIN, here is your amazingly silly and illogical comment.... It is false (and absurd) to dogmatically mandate that if something applies in one case, ergo it cannot in any other. If I posted that I love my son, PROVE TO US ALL that ergo I ONLY love my son and not God or my wife or my neighbor. PROVE IT from what I posted. Friend, everyone sees the absurdity, the illogic of your whole argument. Now, if I posted, "I ONLY love my son and no other" then you'd have a point.... but you can't seem to find a verse where it says, "Christ died ONLY for the elect and no others." And yes, that IS the ONLY issue in this thread, that IS the dogma you desire to support but have yet to do anything to support it.


The rest of your post is just you playing the shell gave.... changing subjects, getting away from what you obviously can't defend.... and proving to us you can ask a question which is irrelevant since questions substantiate nothing (other than you know how to write a question). More dodging. More showing you can ask a question. More accusing others of absuridies rather than supporting your dogma.

 

[MennoSota]

... then your dogma is without the support of Scripture..... you have NOTHING, just as everyone has learned about 32 pages of you presenting nothing.







AGAIN, here is your amazingly silly and illogical comment.... It is false (and absurd) to dogmatically mandate that if something applies in one case, ergo it cannot in any other. If I posted that I love my son, PROVE TO US ALL that ergo I ONLY love my son and not God or my wife or my neighbor. PROVE IT from what I posted. Friend, everyone sees the absurdity, the illogic of your whole argument. Now, if I posted, "I ONLY love my son and no other" then you'd have a point.... but you can't seem to find a verse where it says, "Christ died ONLY for the elect and no others." And yes, that IS the ONLY issue in this thread, that IS the dogma you desire to support but have yet to do anything to support it.


The rest of your post is just you playing the shell gave.... changing subjects, getting away from what you obviously can't defend.... and proving to us you can ask a question which is irrelevant since questions substantiate nothing (other than you know how to write a question). More dodging. More showing you can ask a question. More accusing others of absuridies rather than supporting your dogma.

Josiah, Reformed theology is very biblical. Scripture has been shared. You simply refuse to accept particular redemption (limited atonement) because you don't see the word "only". Frankly, you are arguing like an atheist who will not believe until God makes Himself visible in the exact way the atheist demands.
You cannot excuse your contradiction so you attempt to distract.
You are free to hold to your contradiction that Jesus atoned for all, but failed most because the many didn't manufacture faith.
It's an utterly dumb argument, but you are free to keep arguing it.